LOL!!!  

Meanwhile...

You might want to check the Genitals Question 2 thread in the 11 tech forum odf...

I featured Antonia in a demo there, get it while it's hot. Or at least not censored.

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/comments/4442530/permalink

Meanwhile...

You might want to check the Genitals Question 2 thread in the 11 tech forum odf...

I featured Antonia in a demo there, get it while it's hot. Or at least not censored.

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/comments/4442530/permalink

And when I think I've seen it all...

The 3D version of Pinocchio 🤣

In the meantime, regular-nosed Antonia has fixed the glowing problem. She's really proud of herself, too.

Great

"Are you making fun of me? I have to warn you, I can underbite."

Don't mess with the gal!

After some more fiddling with the weight maps, I think I'm now reasonably happy with the new jaw rig, so I had a go at making an injection pose for it. I learned three things:

1) My usual programming editor, VS Code, is very good at editing Poser files, I would claim better than Poser File Editor. It has an outline mode that is enabled by default and recognizes Poser's block structure, which makes copying large blocks around quite easy. The same might be true for other modern code editors, but doing that research is left as an exercise to the reader.

2) Injecting weight maps via a pose file works like a charm, BUT...

3) In the case of Antonia's jaw, that requires a bit of preparation in the joint editor, because the jaw actor does not have the necessary joint channels to influence other actors, in this case the head and neck. As far as I know, these channels can't be injected, but of course I could be wrong and there could be a special trick. If you happen to know the magical incantations, let me know. But that's actually not that relevant for Antonia herself, because distributing a modified CR2 is no problem, even when one is not me.

At any rate, the Antonia 1.3 CR2 with the new expression rig is becoming ever more likely to be a thing of the near-ish future. I'll probably still include the injection pose file plus instructions, so fans of Antonia-WM can spruce their favorite bendy lady up, as well. If anyone is super-keen to try that out yesterday, let me know and I'll provide the necessary files for testing.

Now that the jaw looks good, some more work on her smile. The creases around the mouth were all wrong.

A tentative plan for Antonia 1.3.0 is materializing:

- Based on 1.2

- Tongue and jaw rigged and weight-mapped

- Updated expression morphs plus some handy sliders in the body to control them

- No more empty morph channels in the CR2

- Further enhancements to be distributed via injection poses (where possible)

It might still be a while until I get to that point, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, as they say. So better go with a small set of changes for now and build on that later.

Next up might be a new weight-mapping for her hips. I don't like how the hips bend in either Antonia 1.2 or Antonia-WM. But that should be injectable via a pose file and if that works out well I might make and release further joint updates over time.

Of course I could decide to make a more drastic change at some point, in which case an Antonia 1.3.1, 1.3.2 and so on might happen. When I run out of steam or decide that she's good enough, I might call the result 1.4 or maybe even 2.0. But honestly, there's a real chance that that will never happen. As I keep saying, not really a content creator here. I just like to tinker and share.

Forgot to say this explicitly: Antonia 1.3 and possible Antonias 1.3.x to follow will be considered experimental, so there could potentially be any kinds of big changes between the x's. Although to be honest, I'd rather try to avoid that. Then if a 1.4 or 2.0 happens, those will be considered stable releases.

Oh, and another thing: if there's anything you know of in the CR2 for 1.2 that needs fixing and would not take a log of work to fix (and then test), please let me know. No point in holding off on easy changes that need to be done at some point, anyway. Just as long as they are, you know, actually easy.

Changes I'd like to see, and things I could do my self but just not the time with other projects. I know these changes won't happen but unless they do Antonia for me is quite a bit of work away from being ideal. Which is a damn shame, considering her license. She's high on my list as a base for utilization for certain things but I'd have to make these changes.

Remodeled teeth as a separate mesh. With the teeth integrated into the gums it's just too difficult to do extreme teeth morphs without worrying about the UVs and scaling and positioning stuff is just too difficult. Subdivision morphs are not a viable alternative. I've spent more than a few hours working on more than a few Subd morphs only to return to Poser, dial the morphs, and have spikey explosions or the results being different than those in the sculpting program. Quite a waste of time. Until this is solved Subd morphs are not reliable and in my eyes are a pie in the sky gimmick. This is via GoZ and pyDelta. Results with both have been... unpredictable. I don't have time for it.

Remodeled and re-rigged eyes. The eyes do not work properly with Subdivision. Which isn't actually a deal breaker. I've actually made new eyes for her that subdivide well. Unfortunately I had a hard time matching the UVs to her existing eye maps. No biggie, I can create new maps. It's the rigging that's problematic, specifically the eyes are at an angle in orientation in the skull rather than being straight on... I assume this was in the name of "realism". The result is that symmetric morphs are more difficult, and match centers is thrown off by the the orientations... this last bit has mixed test results.

Ironically, Bagginsbill made some new eyes for Antonia that Subdivide better AND have matching UVs. Trickster that he is, the eyes load as props sitting on the floor of the ground/construct rather than smart parented to Antonia's head. Lol, hilarious... he's going to make you do some work to implement those eyes. They still don't solve the problem of orientations though.

Antonia's breasts. The topology in the breasts is a nightmare for morphing... don't tell me that it isn't I've easily made probably 20 times more breasts morphs for more figures over the years than 90% of anyone reading this. Not boasting, just not mincing. I won't bother demonstrating the whys and wherefors of this. Until her boobs are remodeled she ain't getting no boobs caressed by this morpher. This one isn't a hard fix though but it probably has implications for existing morphs.

She needs a MR skin. I have one I was working on so this isn't a big deal really. Most of the hard stuff is done, so if I were to finish it it would be more than sufficient for my use.

"Oh, and another thing: if there's anything you know of in the CR2 for 1.2 that needs fixing and would not take a log of work to fix (and then test), please let me know. No point in holding off on easy changes that need to be done at some point, anyway. Just as long as they are, you know, actually easy."

Very easy. I've noticed you aren't a big fan of limits. They're probably useful on jaw actors though lol. Just something I noticed. Anyone could fix it with their heads tied behind their backs. Well... you would think, but lately I'm not so sure.

This post isn't intended to piss off anyone, especially not you ODF. Just I've spent a bit of time looking deeply at Antonia 1.2 and these are some observations I've arrived at through practice. Just things on my wish list for Antonia, I realize it'll never happen and these are very specific to my needs for the figure, unless I do it myself of course, and therein lies the beauty of Ant's license (yet unfulfilled)...

Footnotes;

Remodeled and re-rigged eyes. The eyes do not work properly with Subdivision. Which isn't actually a deal breaker. I've actually made new eyes for her that subdivide well. Unfortunately I had a hard time matching the UVs to her existing eye maps. No biggie, I can create new maps. It's the rigging that's problematic, specifically the eyes are at an angle in orientation in the skull rather than being straight on... I assume this was in the name of "realism". The result is that symmetric morphs are more difficult, and match centers is thrown off by the the orientations... this last bit has mixed test results.

There's a solution by excluding the eye actors from the the body subdivision via subdivide separately in actor properties. As I'm sure you've discovered judging by your recent renders.

Remodeled teeth as a separate mesh. With the teeth integrated into the gums it's just too difficult to do extreme teeth morphs without worrying about the UVs and scaling and positioning stuff is just too difficult. Subdivision morphs are not a viable alternative. I've spent more than a few hours working on more than a few Subd morphs only to return to Poser, dial the morphs, and have spikey explosions or the results being different than those in the sculpting program. Quite a waste of time. Until this is solved Subd morphs are not reliable and in my eyes are a pie in the sky gimmick. This is via GoZ and pyDelta. Results with both have been... unpredictable. I don't have time for it.

Anyone who says "this adds too much geometry" is just faffing full of it. There's a reason every major figure has the teeth modeled as separate from the gums. And it's for the reasons I stated. In the case of Antonia I can see your point with a contrary comeback, it's your figure after all and needs really only please you and your usage demands. I'm thinking more along the lines of a response I received in relation to another figure with a similar design choice.

However, if this were to be a figure that's most case scenarios included useful and is built with that in mind...

Great points, primorge! All duly noted and agreed with. Going through in order of expected effort...

- Joint limits: I think past me was no fan, but present me may have changed their mind. ;-) Going through the rig and setting reasonable limits would probably be easy enough. But since I'm planning to go through the joints by and by, anyway, to check the settings and possibly add WMs and/or remove JCMs, I might just procrastinate a bit and defer the limit setting to when I redo the joint in question (starting of course with the jaw).

- Her wonky eyes: Yes, I turn the eye subdivision off for my renders, and it annoys me that I have to do that. I think a quick fix would just be a matter of turning off the hard edges, and possibly moving a few vertices around. I'll give that a try and if I don't run into any serious issues, include the fix in 1.3. New eyes would be better, but don't feel super-urgent to me at the moment. If it's easy to swap them out in the base geometry without impacting existing non-subdivision morphs, I'll do that. As for the axis orientation: yep, completely agreed. Will fix and instead add a dial for turning them outward a bit in the interest of added realism.

- The infamous breast poles: I know exactly what you mean. Morphing her breasts is a pain. The big question is: do I care about existing morphs to work out of the box in the next version, or am I happy to break them. Since Poser can now transfer morphs between different geometries, I'm tending towards the latter. Just change the topology and leave the shape as close as possible to the existing one. The thing is, I'd rather wait a bit and do one big change at a time, so maybe new breast topology in Antonia 1.3.1?

- Separate teeth: Probably also not something I'd like to pack into the next release, but I hear you.

Another update on the smile. I think I may leave it for now and move on the squint. 

You may want to keep some morphs generic for the purpose of diversifying her physical appearance.  If you make her too unique, the additional features may eventually interfere with ethnic and asymmetrical morphing, something that you might consider in the future.

Truly loving her final smile, wow

You may want to keep some morphs generic for the purpose of diversifying her physical appearance.  If you make her too unique, the additional features may eventually interfere with ethnic and asymmetrical morphing, something that you might consider in the future.

Truly loving her final smile, wow

You're doing fantastic, detailed work with Antonia to optimize a classic look for her, however,  I would hate for all that work to go to waste if you pigeonhole her into one stereotypical model with little chance to inject some ethnic diversity into the mesh.  If you could build a range of different characters on her mesh, many users will take a good second look at her and use her more renders.  I know I would.  

But, just the same, you are doing incredible with Antonia.  I hope you don't grow weary of her.

Yeah, good point! Maybe I'll tie a string to my finger to remind me to test things with some of the existing morphs every now and then. There's already a small collection of non-white characters for Antonia, and eventually I will even remember who the creator was.

ETA: Looked them up in FreeStuff. They're by Sazzyazzca. There are probably a bunch of other existing morphs that I can't think of right now.

While I dig out those other morphs, here's the new smile with some of mine from back in the day: 

Here's one of sazzyazzca's, with a tad of my epicanthic fold morph mixed in. 

I think I like this character. 

Last one for today: fixing up the squint did not take long, so here's a combination of the mouth-only smile a.k.a. mouth wide with the squint and a dash of sneer and mid-brow down. 

Squint looks good, natural looking.

Y-Phil posted at 10:22 AM Sat, 13 August 2022 - #4442714

Truly loving her final smile, wow

Thanks! I feel like Antonia's original smile would have had the potential to tether my soul to the earthly plane after death.

More work on the smile. The version above was much better than her original one, but still far from good. Our girl deserves nothing less than the full Julia Roberts. 

Woah

Another big smile. For the folks with the eagle eyes: yes, I am aware that I need to fix the insides of the mouth corners. Somewhat tricky with the Poser morphs tool, so I might have to take her into Blender at the end.

Another big smile. For the folks with the eagle eyes: yes, I am aware that I need to fix the insides of the mouth corners. Somewhat tricky with the Poser morphs tool, so I might have to take her into Blender at the end.

I will note however that you do see a bit of this from time to time in actual photographs of women wide smiling. It probably looks more odd in a Poser figure because Poser figures aren't photographs of humans and they never look like photographs of humans, they look like Poser figures rendered with more "realistic" bells and whistles as a coat of paint.

Lol.

Minor critique odf. I thinking your starting to lapse into a bit of faffing about with the smile here. There's no way anyone's smile is going to look like your last image without sticking their fingers into their mouth corners and pulling outward as you see children do. A smile morph, open/closed should take a sitting to make, and that's a generous estimate. You're over elaborating to the realm of caricature. Just move on to the next set of expressions.

That being said, if you're trying to emulate that leering ghoul smile that Julia Roberts does I would consider adding scaling dials to the lower and upper jaw actors that work concurrent with the smile wide morph. That would be a way to more accurately portray this. If you study pictures of her you'll see that her teeth and gums are quite wide also, this would help sell the effect and mitigate the huge gaps you are left with in it's current state.

Great points, primorge, thanks!

For the record, I wasn't serious about the Julia Roberts look. It's just that I noticed the previous version of the smile wasn't wide enough, and this one reminded me a bit of Julia's when I first saw it rendered.

That last render is just a combination of morphs that's a bit over the top, so it's not necessarily a reflection on the individual morphs that went into it. I've been considering linking the mouth width to the open mouth dial in the final rig, so that one would have to put in extra work to get unrealistic combinations of wide and open.

The rule of thumb I've seen is that the corners of the mouth should go to the outer edges of the irises in a 100% smile. Now I think Antonia's eyes are a bit wider apart than most people's, so it's probably not a bad idea to not follow that to the letter as I did here. Also, someone once claimed that her jaws are a bit on the small side. I'll have to check this with some references, but if it's true, that would be another reason for that gap being excessive. Or, as you said, even if I decide the jaws are fine, they might have to be widened for extreme smiles.

And you're spot-on about the inner mouth flesh not going quite as wide as the corners of the mouth in a full smile. I had to stare at the mirror really hard, but it turns out for me they don't either. So that's good to know. It's true that sometimes I see something that looks odd on the figure and then I check on a reference, possibly myself, and it looks just as odd in real life. Humans are weird-shaped.

As for faffing about: well, I'm still having fun doing it, and I like to understand how things work and test my limits. Once I've developed the skill and gained some experience, efficiency becomes more interesting to me. Paid work and routine tasks are a bit of a different story, but this is neither of that at this point.

Glad and relieved you weren't offended by my points odf. And yes the faffing bit was a bit subjective really... I kinda figured you were just having some fun :) Lord knows I do my share of noodling, I like the process of this stuff.

Nice work.

"Wait 'til they get a load of me!"

LOL, hborre!

If I ever made a Joker character, it would have to be modeled after the Cesar Romero joker. Not sure if that's such a good fit for Antonia, though. Maybe Harley Quinn? But then the big question is, Margot Robbie or Mia Sara?

Glad and relieved you weren't offended by my points odf. And yes the faffing bit was a bit subjective really... I kinda figured you were just having some fun :) Lord knows I do my share of noodling, I like the process of this stuff.

Nice work.

odf posted at 8:40 PM Fri, 19 August 2022 - #4442984

LOL, hborre!

If I ever made a Joker character, it would have to be modeled after the Cesar Romero joker. Not sure if that's such a good fit for Antonia, though. Maybe Harley Quinn? But then the big question is, Margot Robbie or Mia Sara?

Bruce Timm

You're making an excellent point.

Again I'm at a point where I think I'll stop faffing for the time being and move on to other morphs. I'm also thinking that the full-on toothy magazine cover smile might get its own custom morph if indeed I decide that Antonia needs one. I like the idea of having a relatively small number of expression morphs that combine well and cover a good range of emotions, but there are too many variations in the human face to cover everything, and sometimes the discrepancy is big enough to make any Lego-block expression one might come up with just look weird.

where would I find the following on renderosity:

Different tyypes of gags (penis gags seem to be not around)

shoulder length gloves

Different kknds of ropes and cuffs

strapless, sleeveless, short sleeve wedding gowns

My e-mail is peggy-sue@rogers.com

Thank you

Christopher

Peggy_Sue_nash posted at 9:18 AM Sat, 20 August 2022 - #4443003

where would I find the following on renderosity:

Different tyypes of gags (penis gags seem to be not around)

shoulder length gloves

Different kknds of ropes and cuffs

strapless, sleeveless, short sleeve wedding gowns

My e-mail is peggy-sue@rogers.com

Thank you

Christopher

@odf Looks like you've gone and done it now odf, one picture of Ant with a ball in her mouth and pandora's box is opened.

Funny aside, I recieved a PM from Davo ( y'know the Rotica devious devices guy) recently inquiring about an amputee morph for V4 that I made as a forum request years ago. Makes me think that such things could be lucrative from a Poserverse standpoint, most of the marginal content creators have moved to DS. I've been considering revisiting the amputee morph thing now as Poser and my skills with morphs and dials (somewhat consequently) and texturing have developed since then. I think I could make some nifty amputee stuff now with JCMs etc. There's a vista of unrealized niche things that no one in Poser seems to be filling, I can think of dozens just off the top of my head, very curious.

Check what's on ShareCG, there are a number of amputees morphs I believe were developed for V4.  Probably worth checking how those were made.

Check what's on ShareCG, there are a number of amputees morphs I believe were developed for V4.  Probably worth checking how those were made.

V4AMP

Like I said I could make a much better version now, but this one seemed to get a lot of downloads. Not very pleased with the results in hindsight but it was a one off forum request.

There was another guy who was doing really weird amputee stuff but his files were unnecessarily complex and full of errors, I think they also required RTEncoder.