JoePublic posted at 8:02 PM Wed, 5 April 2023 - #4460913

randym77 posted at 1:21 PM Tue, 4 April 2023 - #4460759

Interesting. I hadn't realized there had been improvements to Firefly as well as Superfly.

I timed a few Firefly scenes in Poser 11 and Poser 13, and rendering times were reduced by around 40%.

That's enough for me to actually upgrade.

Thanks, that's probably enough for me to actually start using Poser 13. Even if I have to run scripts in Poser 11 first.

When I saw the feature list, I was not impressed. In fact, I was skeptical. After trying it, I'm in awe. It renders insanely faster, and the renders look so much better--and I haven't even started tweaking my materials to suit the changes to the updated Cycles. I really think the promotional materials are underselling Poser 13.

Until you try it you really won't know how much has been improved.  During testing I must have done several hundred images.  The speed increase made it that much nicer to play with.  I did a test animation and was getting about 3 frames a minute with image quality that would have passed the movie making course at the college.  Using Poser 12 to get the same quality it was running about 7 minutes a frame.  

I still use Poser 11 pre-renderocity build for animations because late builds all crushes if I just go back and front at animation UI. I got Poser 12 and it has all the 20 years old work rooms which are still not working or useful as something.. 20 years old.. We are at AI age and you need to fight against Poser to do something at every corner. 

I tried some renders at Poser 12 and the results are worse then a game engine. Shiny eyes, stupid shadows. I should not be a pro to fix all those every time. I just want my program to render something properly on it's own. And we got Poser 13.. everything is nearly same. Patch notes from 12 to 13 is maybe less then a little update. It looks like a hobby solo dev project at this point. 

My Favorite version still is Poser 11.1 as all is working the way it should, absolutely not impressed with later versions. Getting complex renders in Firefly in less then a minute resulting to have a artistic look, all my assets work that I got since the beginning of Millennium. When reading all the upcoming issues with materials it seems to me that most of the sold stuff in the store either should be removed or fixed as there not compatible anymore for poser 12 up. It is as if you buy a 10 year old battery for a new cellphone and the seller tells you to fit it in your self.

yes there are some issues with older poser here and there but they can be fixed in no time, like Poser 11.1 the other day giving a Token error on line 8 witch is a fast fix by just adding a line in your host file blocking the old dead link that was taking records of your poser usage. 

vopehov506 posted at 5:39 AM Sun, 9 April 2023 - #4461423

My Favorite version still is Poser 11.1 as all is working the way it should, absolutely not impressed with later versions. Getting complex renders in Firefly in less then a minute resulting to have a artistic look, all my assets work that I got since the beginning of Millennium. When reading all the upcoming issues with materials it seems to me that most of the sold stuff in the store either should be removed or fixed as there not compatible anymore for poser 12 up. It is as if you buy a 10 year old battery for a new cellphone and the seller tells you to fit it in your self.

yes there are some issues with older poser here and there but they can be fixed in no time, like Poser 11.1 the other day giving a Token error on line 8 witch is a fast fix by just adding a line in your host file blocking the old dead link that was taking records of your poser usage. 

I can understand your viewpoint but it is heavily influenced by your commitment to Firefly, not only is that not the case for all of us, there is a line of thought that says there are far fewer challenges in standing still than trying to stretch your skillset. 

hornet3d posted at 7:25 AM Sun, 9 April 2023 - #4461431

vopehov506 posted at 5:39 AM Sun, 9 April 2023 - #4461423

My Favorite version still is Poser 11.1 as all is working the way it should, absolutely not impressed with later versions. Getting complex renders in Firefly in less then a minute resulting to have a artistic look, all my assets work that I got since the beginning of Millennium. When reading all the upcoming issues with materials it seems to me that most of the sold stuff in the store either should be removed or fixed as there not compatible anymore for poser 12 up. It is as if you buy a 10 year old battery for a new cellphone and the seller tells you to fit it in your self.

yes there are some issues with older poser here and there but they can be fixed in no time, like Poser 11.1 the other day giving a Token error on line 8 witch is a fast fix by just adding a line in your host file blocking the old dead link that was taking records of your poser usage. 

I can understand your viewpoint but it is heavily influenced by your commitment to Firefly, not only is that not the case for all of us, there is a line of thought that says there are far fewer challenges in standing still than trying to stretch your skillset. 

True that standing still is not bringing you anywhere. As a creator my self there is a huge conflict with this new system. First of all it is a incredible additional work getting the materials correct that is ending up to be more work then creating a standalone articulated figure. there are huge issues getting a correct setting for a good quality render. This whole issues will increase the need of support for sold products, ending up with high risc that customers will not be very happy with there purchases. Customers do expect a fuilly working product for there investments, they do not want to fix it passing day's on it and figuring out a working material setting with 100 ++ of nodes and  digit settings for just one asset. Sure it is ok having optionally allot of possibilities ( Optionally ) but with this whole upgrading they probably forgot that mostly these products are sold and have to be produced to a reasonable price, I bet you do not want having to spend over 100 - 1000 $ for a single asset like offered for professional programs. For Creators ... keep it simple, nice, functional and cheap. Sure now you get a super fast rendering but you forget to add the day's you will spend on finding the correct material setting for your render so you probably Increased the production time by 10'000 % just to do one render. your render instead of 10 min for older poser versions takes you now a whole day just to get the right setup. That is sure not what customers want!

Comes to it that over 90% of the Poser store products are no longer compatible, I mean that is almost all what has ben built since poser exists and for the first time a full clean out. I just do not want to imagine Daz pulling down all poser stuff including V4 just because they can't be sold any longer due compatibility issues, piles of refund, and angry customers. You just can't sell stuff that is not working any longer. And if Daz pulls down the Millenniums for poser then Renderosity will be forced pulling down all the Conforming stuff for these models as the base is no longer existent. As a Vendor how would you explain that it ain't working ? just telling him, sorry but Bondware changed the program so I'm not in charge that it ain't working right anymore. 

There are just two different aspects between a customer and a Creator. So no Creators, no customers, ending up with no Poser.

With some experience you might still be able making a great render in Poser4 . Older promo's for products made in Poser in the early 2010 - 2015 are way ahead of what is presented and created now, with this top notch superfly engine and high end gpu's, so this is making me wonder if all really Improved or if there is rather a big loss of quality for higher speed.

vopehov506 posted at 9:37 AM Sun, 9 April 2023 - #4461443

hornet3d posted at 7:25 AM Sun, 9 April 2023 - #4461431

vopehov506 posted at 5:39 AM Sun, 9 April 2023 - #4461423

My Favorite version still is Poser 11.1 as all is working the way it should, absolutely not impressed with later versions. Getting complex renders in Firefly in less then a minute resulting to have a artistic look, all my assets work that I got since the beginning of Millennium. When reading all the upcoming issues with materials it seems to me that most of the sold stuff in the store either should be removed or fixed as there not compatible anymore for poser 12 up. It is as if you buy a 10 year old battery for a new cellphone and the seller tells you to fit it in your self.

yes there are some issues with older poser here and there but they can be fixed in no time, like Poser 11.1 the other day giving a Token error on line 8 witch is a fast fix by just adding a line in your host file blocking the old dead link that was taking records of your poser usage. 

I can understand your viewpoint but it is heavily influenced by your commitment to Firefly, not only is that not the case for all of us, there is a line of thought that says there are far fewer challenges in standing still than trying to stretch your skillset. 

True that standing still is not bringing you anywhere. As a creator my self there is a huge conflict with this new system. First of all it is a incredible additional work getting the materials correct that is ending up to be more work then creating a standalone articulated figure. there are huge issues getting a correct setting for a good quality render. This whole issues will increase the need of support for sold products, ending up with high risc that customers will not be very happy with there purchases. Customers do expect a fuilly working product for there investments, they do not want to fix it passing day's on it and figuring out a working material setting with 100 ++ of nodes and  digit settings for just one asset. Sure it is ok having optionally allot of possibilities ( Optionally ) but with this whole upgrading they probably forgot that mostly these products are sold and have to be produced to a reasonable price, I bet you do not want having to spend over 100 - 1000 $ for a single asset like offered for professional programs. For Creators ... keep it simple, nice, functional and cheap. Sure now you get a super fast rendering but you forget to add the day's you will spend on finding the correct material setting for your render so you probably Increased the production time by 10'000 % just to do one render. your render instead of 10 min for older poser versions takes you now a whole day just to get the right setup. That is sure not what customers want!

Comes to it that over 90% of the Poser store products are no longer compatible, I mean that is almost all what has ben built since poser exists and for the first time a full clean out. I just do not want to imagine Daz pulling down all poser stuff including V4 just because they can't be sold any longer due compatibility issues, piles of refund, and angry customers. You just can't sell stuff that is not working any longer. And if Daz pulls down the Millenniums for poser then Renderosity will be forced pulling down all the Conforming stuff for these models as the base is no longer existent. As a Vendor how would you explain that it ain't working ? just telling him, sorry but Bondware changed the program so I'm not in charge that it ain't working right anymore. 

There are just two different aspects between a customer and a Creator. So no Creators, no customers, ending up with no Poser.

Once again I can certainly see your point of view, it is early days yet, but my experience with old content so far has been that most of it works with Superfly in Poser 13.  Some do cause an issue using the GPUfor rendering but it has always worked for me by switching to CPU.   The odd problem I have found has been down to the vendor creating materials in the past that seem not to comply with good practice.  That is not to knock the vendor as there could have been a good reason why they did it that way.  It is also true that I am using the Go Physical script to enhance materials that a have been in my runtime for a good few years and save me time in doing so.  Yes it is an additional cost over and above that of Poser 13 but if it allows me to continue use content that is that old, I see that as a small price to pay.

I also think that creating new materials should be easier than before whether it be for Firefly or Superfly, the issue appears to be converting old Firefly materials to Superfly 

 

vopehov506 posted at 9:37 AM Sun, 9 April 2023 - #4461443

hornet3d posted at 7:25 AM Sun, 9 April 2023 - #4461431

Customers do expect a fuilly working product for there investments, they do not want to fix it passing day's on it and figuring out a working material setting with 100 ++ of nodes and  digit settings for just one asset. 

Among customers, there are exceptions. I just don't know how much, but probably since Poser 9, I use the original material settings only when I'm  really lazy or if the vendor has made a fantastic job (and some are really good at this exercise)
But for what concerns the human figures, and the hairs: I've almost never used  any original settings (there's one exception: Aphrodite Ohki)

I'm really used to buy stuff because I can't model anything, and I just need the bitmaps. 

Y-Phil posted at 10:13 AM Mon, 10 April 2023 - #4461540

vopehov506 posted at 9:37 AM Sun, 9 April 2023 - #4461443

hornet3d posted at 7:25 AM Sun, 9 April 2023 - #4461431

Customers do expect a fuilly working product for there investments, they do not want to fix it passing day's on it and figuring out a working material setting with 100 ++ of nodes and  digit settings for just one asset. 

Among customers, there are exceptions. I just don't know how much, but probably since Poser 9, I use the original material settings only when I'm  really lazy or if the vendor has made a fantastic job (and some are really good at this exercise)
But for what concerns the human figures, and the hairs: I've almost never used  any original settings (there's one exception: Aphrodite Ohki)

I'm really used to buy stuff because I can't model anything, and I just need the bitmaps. 

I am of the opinion that if it's a brand new product,  I expect a material that is working in the latest iteration of the program it was made for, that is, Poser. 

If it's an older product, of course it's nice if a vendor releases as update, but in Poserverse that is bloody rare, pardon the language. Some vendors release updates for the *other program* side of things, and Poser materials still linger in five-eight years behind.

Now what i would like to see is scripts updated for Poser 13, even if I have to buy them again. I don't have time to faff with twenty times twenty nodes updates for my hobby and am willing to pay someone for a product that does it for me as a customer.

Unfortunately, there is no standardized way to set up shaders that will work for all lighting situations.  And given that there are perhaps dozens of permutations that result in the same outcome, you will hard pressed to be satisfied all the time.  Vendors want to put out new content as often as they can and they don't want to go back and recreate updates for outdated products.  Believe me, some vendors simply don't know their way around the Material Room and are stuck in the same outmoded method of production.

Hmm. I view this as a serious issue with Poser's ecosystem then. 

Rhia474 posted at 1:00 PM Mon, 10 April 2023 - #4461560

Hmm. I view this as a serious issue with Poser's ecosystem then. 

You could be right, trouble is I am not really sure how big an impact it is.  I rarely use the materials supplied with a product for a number of reasons, firstly I want my version to be different from everyone else's (probably for the same reason I don't dress in designer clothing).  Secondly I have been surprised over the years just how often it is easy to improve on the default textures particularly when I do not regard myself as an expert in Poser or the material room.  Lastly my choices limit the availability of content, I use Dawn SE so the clothing for her is limited but then I am into Sci fi so that limits things still further.  The end result is I kit bash a lot of the time and I have to play with the textures to get outfits to look consistent.  OK, I know not everyone has those limitations but looking at the gallery here at Rendo, I don't think I am alone in not using the default textures

Oh, I kitbash too. Textures improved dramatically with the use of GoPhysical when it came out. 

Poser documentation that is *supplied with the program* may need a wee bit if attention. Just one example. DcArt suggested for me to try a tutorial for how to do PBR using a pre-made example from the online manual. When I try to follow the manuals instructions, the very first link I am supposed to download tutorial files from *is broken*.

That is sloppy and discouraging.

I don't think we are asking for too much, people who dint make models or do expert things in material room but would like to use Poser to have fun. From what people say here 'just do your own and leave vendors alone' is the consensus.

That will not win sales for anyone.

To clarify:

What I just said is in no way a bashing of those generous members of this community who donated countless hours to test, amend, edit and fix before the new version came out. Neither is it a critique of those who offered free help to those of us (myself included) who were having issues with the new release. I have the utmost respect for you and apologize if what I said came across as a personal attack.

The problem is that of a chicken and egg situation.  Vendors don't want to make new stuff that is only usable in the newest version since it will cut out some possible sales.  Therefore, trying to find stuff to use in the newest version is hard to locate so people stick to the old version which makes vendors say see everyone uses the 12-year version, so there is no need to create for the new version.  Me, I make everything in the latest version and if it happens to work in a prior version great, if not oh well.  Of course, I do it for the fun of it and not to make a living.  The nice thing about the last couple of versions is that you don't need a massive number of nodes in the material room to make something look good.  That along with the fact that you can now render without any lights and get good results in a short amount of time gives me a bit more time to work on fixing OLD materials to make them work in Poser 13.  

Richard60 posted at 3:26 PM Mon, 10 April 2023 - #4461591

The problem is that of a chicken and egg situation.  Vendors don't want to make new stuff that is only usable in the newest version since it will cut out some possible sales.  Therefore, trying to find stuff to use in the newest version is hard to locate so people stick to the old version which makes vendors say see everyone uses the 12-year version, so there is no need to create for the new version.  Me, I make everything in the latest version and if it happens to work in a prior version great, if not oh well.  Of course, I do it for the fun of it and not to make a living.  The nice thing about the last couple of versions is that you don't need a massive number of nodes in the material room to make something look good.  That along with the fact that you can now render without any lights and get good results in a short amount of time gives me a bit more time to work on fixing OLD materials to make them work in Poser 13.  

I'd venture to guess that there is hardly ANYONE left that is using any version of Poser prior to Poser 9/Pro 2012 or 10/Pro 2014.  To continue to support earlier versions won't get you many additional sales.

DCArt posted at 5:32 PM Mon, 10 April 2023 - #4461605

Richard60 posted at 3:26 PM Mon, 10 April 2023 - #4461591

The problem is that of a chicken and egg situation.  Vendors don't want to make new stuff that is only usable in the newest version since it will cut out some possible sales.  Therefore, trying to find stuff to use in the newest version is hard to locate so people stick to the old version which makes vendors say see everyone uses the 12-year version, so there is no need to create for the new version.  Me, I make everything in the latest version and if it happens to work in a prior version great, if not oh well.  Of course, I do it for the fun of it and not to make a living.  The nice thing about the last couple of versions is that you don't need a massive number of nodes in the material room to make something look good.  That along with the fact that you can now render without any lights and get good results in a short amount of time gives me a bit more time to work on fixing OLD materials to make them work in Poser 13.  

I'd venture to guess that there is hardly ANYONE left that is using any version of Poser prior to Poser 9/Pro 2012 or 10/Pro 2014.  To continue to support earlier versions won't get you many additional sales.

Well from the 1'200 ++ members I have, 80% are still using poser 2012 - 2016 that is a pretty high amount and not to be compared to the active Poser members here in the forums. So the voices of the few in here could not be presented as a reliable average statistic. 

My experience shows that it is best to keep things simple when creating figures, not talking about material doll character extensions. So a Creator might be on the secure side just using the basic texture nodes. It grants a fast render and users can extend the material settings to there preferences. Important is that it loads correctly in the latest releases and prior ones . For now majority from the ones I know are still using the old versions up to the times of SM sticking on there older Investments. And even these " Old " still Improve from month to month.

End users are mostly using poser as a Relaxing Hobby, after a hard day of work letting them selves fall into that creative fantasy world, they do not really want to spend hour's of figuring out how to setup a material, most do not even enter the material room. they have no Idea about the morph tools, they want it simple just the way poser was built for. Posing some finished models for there little own worlds " To call it a day " 

The poser tech's in here are lifting it to much on the few in here that want more and more making it complicated removing the simple addons that were given, forgetting about the silent majority that really is using poser for there fun.

And Nop these do not want to jump on a Blender to make it better they just want the simple Poser to pose what they purchased, and no they do not want to mess with technical stuff as they want it to be a relaxing toy for there obscure fantasies.    

In my Poser career I got to know many Writers that use poser for there fan fiction covers, yes that was really surprising, other ones that also used the simple posing system in poser with all these offered assets for there work presentations, some even make renders pretending on expo's that these were painted :) and guess! these do not want to mess with tech stuff, they are not cyber junkies they need a good app to load the stuff they purchased and make there covers and little presentations fast cheap and reliable.

So to make Poser big , Keep it simple, for the simple people, build in creation improvements for the figure creators in background, else these simple users will be confused loosing the fun of it, do not forget that these users even have a hard time to know the difference between Conforming and Parenting a figure outfit. Making Poser a mix between Blender is not the solution, the solution is the simple users. Already the removal of the "simple" Material room was a wrong step. why not keep the complicated stuff behind the scene for the creators. Sure Poser can be extended as stuff needs to be created, but not right in your face, the simple users will run away witch is majority. else these might as well start using Blender, but this group does not want to use a Blender, exactly because of the simple alternative, A Blender would just rise over there horizon.

The simple light Poser is the best concurrence to the others that make it complicated 

Richard60 posted at 3:26 PM Mon, 10 April 2023 - #4461591

The problem is that of a chicken and egg situation.  Vendors don't want to make new stuff that is only usable in the newest version since it will cut out some possible sales.  Therefore, trying to find stuff to use in the newest version is hard to locate so people stick to the old version which makes vendors say see everyone uses the 12-year version, so there is no need to create for the new version.  Me, I make everything in the latest version and if it happens to work in a prior version great, if not oh well.  Of course, I do it for the fun of it and not to make a living.  The nice thing about the last couple of versions is that you don't need a massive number of nodes in the material room to make something look good.  That along with the fact that you can now render without any lights and get good results in a short amount of time gives me a bit more time to work on fixing OLD materials to make them work in Poser 13.  

After playing with Poser 13 for slightly more than a week I have to say that my procedure so far is to load in my Poser 12 scene, fun everything through Go Physical, delete of switch off all the lights and then see how good or bad the scene will render.  In almost all cases it has rendered much better than expected and I am having fun making my old Poser 12 scenes work with no lights or, on on rare occasions, no more than a single light.

vopehov506 posted at 7:02 PM Mon, 10 April 2023 - #4461614

So to make Poser big , Keep it simple, for the simple people, build in creation improvements for the figure creators in background, else these simple users will be confused loosing the fun of it, do not forget that these users even have a hard time to know the difference between Conforming and Parenting a figure outfit. Making Poser a mix between Blender is not the solution, the solution is the simple users. Already the removal of the "simple" Material room was a wrong step. why not keep the complicated stuff behind the scene for the creators. Sure Poser can be extended as stuff needs to be created, but not right in your face, the simple users will run away witch is majority. else these might as well start using Blender, but this group does not want to use a Blender, exactly because of the simple alternative, A Blender would just rise over there horizon.

The simple light Poser is the best concurrence to the others that make it complicated 

Once again I find myself agreeing with what you say but having a slightly different opinion on the way forward.  Keep it simple, sure, and I think the dev team have tried to do that with the inclusion of so much content with scenes set up almost ready to go.  I am all for that but I do not think that Poser is ever going a be a program where all you need to do is find the make art button.  All computer art software is going to take time and effort to get the best out of it, the learning curve will vary from program to program.  I have nothing against trying to make the learning curve for Poser a shallow one, but given how powerful it is, it is never going to be that shallow. 

While I agree that end users may not want to muck around in the material room, they still want great looking renders. Having basic shaders won't give that and will necessitate them having to spend even more time in the material room. If a couple of image maps would make them great, then there would be no need for all the changes and upgrades to render engines to allow for all these fancy shaders. And as a writer who not only makes covers, but also illustrations, I don't want mediocre. I want awesome. And if I'm not getting it, it's not because of the tools, but the user.

I sort of have to disagree that you can not get good renders with basic shaders, because I do it all the time.

Here is a perfect example.

There is nothing fancy about this shader at all. No SSS, etc, because it really isn't needed in a scene like this. 3 control nodes and 3 texture nodes, that's it....

Simple shaders, and an hdri for lighting on the background node (no Poser lights in the scene). Many times, simple is far better with Superfly.... Educate people on how to get far better renders, versus preaching about bad results from P4 mindsets.... What a concept..... I don't mean to offend anyone, but learning the software to get really good renders is not that hard at all now. Don't expect point and click to always work, because it obviously wont or we would not be having this conversation..... The first thing most will notice about the render is that I did not subdivide the hair..... Yep, I forgot to do that....... That totally makes it look like a crappy render, doesn't it..............

Still loving your sculpt, Scott!

Educational details for the rest ... Two key points to be made in Scott's shader that help elevate the skin detail. 

1) Skin bump was not created from the color/diffuse map. The skin details were created by hand in ZBrush, using high quality skin detail alphas and textures. After sculpting, they were exported as both Bump/Displacement (grayscale) and tangent space Normal maps.

2) A roughness map was generated from the hand-detailed Normal map. Physical Surface node and Cycles/Principled BSDF nodes do much better with roughness maps than specular maps. 

The skin bump, normal, and roughness maps are provided with Poser and can be found in Poser 13 Content > Included > Runtime > Textures > RPublishing > LaFemme.

I've been debating creating simliar bump, normal, and roughness maps for other figures. Because they really do make a difference in SuperFly. With simple PBR shaders, the textures do most of the heavy lifting, as Scott's simple skin shader demonstrates.

Here's another example of a simple shader that relies solely on PBR textures. In addition to color, normal, and roughness, there are also Emission and metallic maps.

The beauty of creating PBR-compatible maps is that they can be used in both Poser SuperFly (La Femme on the left) and DAZ Studio iRay (shown on the right). with fairly consistent results. Main difference here is in lighting, not the shader itself. 

You need good PBR mats to do PBR, and there is basically no way around that. Many material sets are not PBR, they are just converted from the diffuse as D mentioned.

You could use generated maps like EzSkin can set up, but that is very limited in what will get out of it simply because all you get is the same thing everywhere on the map. That never looks right on skin that has many different textures in different areas of the bump on the skin. Think of the differences from your nose to under you eyes. Those areas are completely different, and right next to each other on the same maps.

You will also run into issues of maps being saved at a certain gamma setting, and you really need to use them at another setting. I have all the grayscale maps in that shader set to 2.2 versus at 1 as they load in the render I posted. You can easily adjust grayscale maps with the gamma setting. Gain, lift, and center contrast are a function of gamma and you can use that to your advantage in Poser without adding any additional nodes. Just keep in mind that the gamma setting is map usage wide. If you need to use different gamma settings with the same map on a different material, you will have to resort to a gamma node to change it on one material and have it be a different gamma setting on one material.

I almost always scrap the specular map on skin as well, because it is rarely needed. Yes you can assign different areas of the skin to reflect more or less with a specular map. But doing that can make the shader incredibly light and environment sensitive right off the bat because that is exactly what the roughness map (combined with the bump effect) is already doing. There is usually no need for a specular map on a skin shader. There are certain exceptions to this, like metallic makeup, etc. But that is a bit different thing to address.

The biggest problem people will run into with content is the burned in specular/bump/shadows/etc and grayscale maps that are not PBR at all....

And sadly that describes a large portion of Poser content.....

Close enough, and just fake it, doesn't work well in PBR....

shvrdavid posted at 1:01 PM Sun, 16 April 2023 - #4462354

Y-Phil posted at 3:18 PM Sun, 16 April 2023 - #4462361

No, it won't render.