Hello all.

I took a break from playing with Poser 11 for a while, and started tinkering with it again.  I'm finally more or less comfortable enough to work with the models that come with it, or at least, to start learning like with textures and such.

I would eventually like to start making some of my own models for short animations.  But I first need to learn the basics.  Programs like Blender are a bit overwhelming to me.  I'd like to start with simple models, something like the old Fisher Price Little People toys.  Very basic shape, and the only thing I would really have to worry about animating, aside from a little hair or ears, would be the face.  This is a representative picture of the toys:

So, the question becomes, what can I use to get my feet wet and learn the basics of creating a model for Poser with riggable facial expressions?  I saw suggestions of using Paint 3D (I have Win10), but that seems more suited to making 3D objects that don't need to be rigged, like landscapes and props.  I've seen that models made in Paint 3D can be exported as .fbx files, but it looks like you can't rig facial expressions, and that's what I need to learn.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a good starting point for a guy just starting 3D modeling?  I know I will move up to Blender and such later, but I need some familiarity - I'm lost without structure.  I've heard there are sites that use AI to generate a 3D model that you can then paint and rig, but I'm leery of the ethics involved in that.  Can anyone point me in a direction?

I remember those figures. And to show my age, I played with the wooden ones.

If you're considering using Blender eventually, I'd recommend starting with it. Why learn how to do something in one program only to have to relearn it in another? As far as giving the figures expressions, you might think about making morphs rather than rigging.

Morphs are where either the shape of the head or the proportions of the UV map change, right?  Just making sure I have my terminology correct.

I was trying to think of something a bit simpler than that.  Did you ever watch RWBY when it first started?  It was animated with Poser back in those days.  And what they did for the faces was more or less create a layer on top of the face that they animated expressions with. I'm thinking the way they did it was to basically create two figures, and superimpose the second figure with the facial expressions and lip flaps over the first body model, and select "do not show" on everything for the second model except the facial features.  It's why I thought the Little People would be a good starting point - I would only need to figure out how to move two dots for eyes and lip flaps.  But that's a guess on my part, I don't know how they made the show.  Supposedly, not counting voice and mocap, the animation team consisted of only four people.  Once again, though, that was way back when.  I think they switched to Maya in Season 3 or 4 (and the models they started using didn't have that...uniqueness, I guess?...that the Poser ones had.

In morphs the shape changes. I don't think I've seen the texture change, except to follow the surface movement, but you'd get that with rigging too.

I did see RWBY and remember hearing a little about how they did things back when they were using Poser. But I don't remember if they mentioned the expressions. 

I rigged the figures for RWBY the faces were fully sculpted and use morphs for expression the way LaFemme or any other Poser figure does. Those would be the absolute deep end of Poser rigging. In season 2, episode 7 there a dance scene where all the figures are dancing. The character Pyrrha wears a long dress. That's rigged using a hybrid of bullet physics and proxy objects. Those dresses are not dynamic cloth. It's all rigged. Most important it wasn't conformed clothing. Each costume was a discrete figure. That's to save the sanity of the animators. The rigs did contain pose dial presets for common expressions and hand poses. That's also to save on animator sanity.

Now for getting started in animation and making your own figures for Poser. If your eventual goal is animation and you have a set of specific characters you'll probably want to build in the clothes. It's just easier in the long run.

To get your feet wet start off with the mannequin Andy. He's got a mostly blank face but there are a couple of morphs that five him a sort of face. You can use Poser's built in Morph Brush Tool to create expressions for the faces of Andy.The morphs in Poser don't change the UV map of a figure. They change the shape of the actual geometry. Think like your working with clay. Doing that will give you a feel for manipulating an existing mesh in Poser. No matter what, the place to start will be modifying existing figures to get the hang of how they work.

Blender.

Yes, it can be overwhelming, but there are so many tutorials that will help focus your efforts. Just google what you want to do.

Just be aware that, as yet, Poser morphs are linear between as-is and target.

This only becomes a 'gotcha' if the 'morphed' part should be turned instead...

( MMD models, PMX format, do allow curved morphs, but they use a very different geometry system... )

TheBlueSkyRanger, another idea to think about:

From the image you shared it seems that the facial expressions you want are like simple 2D drawings on the character's face.

If you don't want/need a smooth transition between expressions: I believe you can achieve that with texture only, with the help of a user friendly UV layout.

POSER 12 onwards has the materials layers concept (I'm not sure how it would be done in P11 and earlier):
I imagine you could have one layer (overlay) for each expression, and then alternate between different expressions by animating the shader's root node "opacity".

In the Material Room, by clicking on a shader parameter's "key" icon (next to its value) you will have a master dial that you can use in the Pose Room (which can be renamed). This way you could show/hide a given layer (texture overlay) without leaving the Pose Room.

evargas posted at 7:55 AM Wed, 2 August 2023 - #4471701

TheBlueSkyRanger, another idea to think about:

From the image you shared it seems that the facial expressions you want are like simple 2D drawings on the character's face.

If you don't want/need a smooth transition between expressions: I believe you can achieve that with texture only, with the help of a user friendly UV layout.

POSER 12 onwards has the materials layers concept (I'm not sure how it would be done in P11 and earlier):
I imagine you could have one layer (overlay) for each expression, and then alternate between different expressions by animating the shader's root node "opacity".

In the Material Room, by clicking on a shader parameter's "key" icon (next to its value) you will have a master dial that you can use in the Pose Room (which can be renamed). This way you could show/hide a given layer (texture overlay) without leaving the Pose Room.

I've looked: Poser11 also has the concept of layers, the main difference for the layers management is that since Poser12 one can rename additional layers.

Sorry for the delay in responding.  Thank you all for your responses.  It's definitely a lot to think about.

I like the idea of playing around with Andy to get a feel for how everything fits before I try to actually model a character (I downloaded the Bumblebee Transformer model.  Supposedly, it took the guy 200 hours to make that, rig it, and so on.  My hat is off to him).  If I may ask a few more questions:

1) My main animation work is 2D in Moho.  There, have have this thing called "switch layers," where one layer has several images that you can display one at a time by switching between them, such as hands in different gestures and poses.  I take it the layers management mentioned above is similar to that?  Is that stock with Poser, or is it a separate download/purchase?

2) As long as I'm bringing up Moho, I'm guessing, since video can be incorporated into the background for reference, that an audio track can also be incorporated (I do lip flaps manually, I don't like how it looks when the software "guesses" when the mouths are supposed to move)..  Is it possible to just incorporate an audio to get lip syncs and other things right, and can it export the audio to the resulting media file, or is it video only and I have to add it in in an editor later?

3). This is a big one - usage rights.  I have Poser 8 because it runs under Linux and Mac 10.6.4, and Poser 11 for the modern machines and OS's.  Am I allowed to use the stock Poser models, props, poses, animations, etc. for my animations, or are there limitations like no commercial use or private only?  Keep in mind, you are talking to a guy who will spend an entire weekend just sorting through his fonts looking for what he can and can't use legally, and I frankly don't remember what the EULA's said.  I understand the EULA's for things downloaded here on Renderosity or other sites have their own rules for what you can and can't do, I'm just wondering about the stock configuration, so if I alter one of the models and animate it, will I still be legal?

4) So, suppose I make a Little People model in Blender.  I export it as an .fbx.  I load it into Poser.  I rig it up.  Is it now possible to save and export it as an actual Poser figure (I think the file extension is .pz2 or something like that), or when I save it, it only saves it in the project I'm working on, and I would have to re-import and re-rig if I do another scene or move to another machine?

I'm still getting the hang of things.  So far, the biggest obstacles to me are the textures (I'm just starting to explore the UV mapping aspect) and the lighting.  Good gravy, the lighting is tough.  I need to learn how to properly light the set/scene, and that's not counting going into the Materials room for things like ambience and such.  I'm looking forward to having some more time to play around when Labor Day weekend comes up and I have plenty of time, so I'm going to get my head set straight before that.

I don't know anything about 1.

2, you can include audio. I don't know how it works. I usually render as a series of still frames that I combined in an editor because up until version 13, if you were rendering in video format and it got interrupted, you had to start over. Poser 13 automatically saves the frames and then turns them into a video if have it set to do that

Question 3, I'm assuming you by stock, you mean the included content. You can use that for commercial renders however the content itself can't be redistributed.

4. yes, you can save the figure to the library. You'll want the figures tab and then with your figure selected, hit the plus at the bottom of the library to save it. If you don't see the plus, make sure you have a runtime selected.

'scribbling frantically' 😥 *mumbling under breath* WOW 😯 I'm learning a lot! 😯

Thank you everyone for your help and insight.  I'll check back in eventually, but first, I need to at least attempt some of this on my own.  Thank you again for being patient with me.

Good luck 👍🍀