This isnt to start a flame, but... Yesterday, Tonymouse put an image in the Poser galleries called "Hot shower" that was a non-sexual image of two men embracing in the shower. It disappeared. Tony thought this might have been a technical glitch and reposted, only to find an e-mail from someone here saying it had been removed "because of content". Okay. We have scores of naked Mike-and-Vicky images and no one bats an eye, but two guys in a shower is cause for alarm? Folks, whether some people at Rsity wish to acknowledge it or not, there is an emerging gay presence here, and its about time some people around here got with the program. Off my soapbox and back to doing the laundry...

It was gonna come down to that sooner or later, tits and ass are ok, but 2 men in a shower God forbid.... Sorry that happened to that pic, I would certainly contact the proper person and say my piece

Damn... are you serious? I mean, it certainly doesn't float my boat to see two guys embracing in a shower, but all the same, I'm not so sure they did it out of discrimination. (proof? There's a gallery image of two military guys embracing in a forest, if memory serves.) Hmm - waitaminute. "...in a shower" Yeah, I think I know why they did it now: If the two figures were completely naked and embracing in an intimate place (a shower would count as such), it could be construed as sexual/erotic content. Seriously, be it hetero- or homosexual, such a scene would probably be better suited for renderotica. I do know that there are gallery postings of solo figures in a shower in alluring poses, but those could more easily be construed as non-sexual, at least more easily than two figures in teh same shower embracing. It would be a tough sell in either case, no matter what sex the participating figures were. In either case, I'd hate to be the gallery moderator - I see a rather big sh!t-storm brewing out of this one. /P

Oh, come on there are plenty of images of sexual content in the gallery with 2 women and those are left alone.... sounds bad to be sure.

forgot to finish the first paragraph... As much as it doesn't do anything for me, it would be interesting to see how well it was done, and IM very strong O there should be no notice made of what sex the figures happen to be. (BTW... whose shower prop did they use? If it came from Little Dragon or I, I'd really be interested in seeing how it did turn out.) /P

I am outraged by this. We have Mike and Vicki embracing, Vicki and Vicki embracing, but we can't have Mike and Mike embracing? Give me a break. I want to see this image.

Well since it is my piece I should weigh in on the subject. I am not trying to start any trouble. I just wanted to understand why my piece was pulled. I was not trying to offend anyone or go outside the "guidelines" I didn't see anything sexual. Just affection. I don't know about the rest of you out there but if you have ever tried to have sex in the shower usually one of you ends up with a concussion. I don't know if it will get me kicked off the site, I did repost it cuz I though it was a tech glich. I don't mind that there are guidline but I created that piece with the best of intentions as for the army dudes in woods I think you are referring to my piece "don't ask." I truly don't want this to become a big deal I had already sent email to the admin about it. I like it here, and I want to stay! but I guess I would like some guidence about content. I am a gay man and there for by deffinition all my work is gay reguardless of sexual or non-sexual content. I would like to continue to share and grow with you all. I would like to learn from you and you all can (perhaps)learn from me.

Hmm... given the sheer volume of gallery images, I rarely go in there. If R-osity has naked hetero couples embracing, then WTF is so wrong with a gay couple doing the same? I seriously haven't looked that deep into the galleries. Like I said... I'd hate to be the moderator that pulled the plug on this one. /P

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=137696&Start=61&Sectionid=1&WhatsNew=Yes

There have been a gazillion Vicki and Mike images in almost the same pose that have been completely passed over. I am not gay, but I have relatives and friends who are, and I find this medieval attitude offensive.

This should have never been an issue at all. Nope. I have seen many much more erotic images here. It would seem that it was merely the fact that it was two mean that it was removed. I really hope that isn't the case. >:o|

sigh MEN not MEAN!

Wheres Good Doctor Legume when we need him most? =)

Yeah, that was the image... "Don't ask." It hit me after I sen the message. BTW: Nice work on that one (though the USAF BDU uniform -the guy on the right- wasn't all that accurate, but that's most likely the fault of whoever built the conforming uniform, so if I see it, I can go bug the modeller about that.) If you'd like I can send a more detailed description of the uniform for you... I wore one for four years.) 'k. Tangent aside, It should be a foregon assumption that you're just as welcome as everyone else here - (prolly moreso than me, because by comparison I suck at making gallery images :) /P

I just saw the pic and it is beautifully done,companionship, caring and enjoying a hot shower is all I see, nothing distasteful or even sexual about it, keep on posting them

(mile-wide grin) The image isn't bad at all, and technically, all I could suggest is perhaps a touch more definition WRT the steam, and perhaps just a bit stronger lighting, but that's just personal taste talking (bathroom lights are always harsh IMO, but that's prolly because it's the first light I always see in the morning.)

It's the very first time I've seen anything that I helped build used in a render - and it happened to be a damned good render to boot! /P

So where is the curtain prop? (he asks, tapping toe impatiently) I gotta "backstage" schedule to meet here, folks!!! =)

I can't believe that it would be removed for "content". I would have some serious issues about staying at Renderosity if that was really the case. I thought this community was all about diversity and growth. I am extremely disappointed at whoever it was that decided to delete the image. It is no more nude or offensive as any other thousands & thousands of heterosexual nude images. I hope this does not happen again. Sincerely, visualkinetics

Attached Link: http://205.122.23.229/littledragon/Curtain.zip

Hi, Not bad, though we can only guess which one of these you transgressed: 1. Depictions of physical arousal or sexual acts. 2. Genital contact with ANY object, other than sitting or clothing. 3. Rape or torture of any living or dead creature. I guess some people just have dirty minds :) Now if I were to tell you that the words "rape" and cucumber were involved in an image here, would you all scour the galleries to find it? :) As for sex in the shower, I figure you just need a bigger shower, I can recommend the walk in ones at the "hotel arts" in Port Olympic in Barcelona, good view of the city too :) Thoughts: Are people objects? :) Is using a weapon physicaly arousing? :) Are wierd, unsexy "sexual acts" covered? (think Blue Velvet, man hides in closet :) Why are the undead not protected? :) Was what the US army did to Noriega, "torture" or not? :) (I guess that one depends on how you feel about Elvis ;) Don't I have a home to go to? (evidently not :) later jb

Visual, as long as people continue to be aware of stuff around here like this, it wont. Dont bail on us. Pen -- thanks! Gotta go! Renders to make! (he says, with an evil look in his eye.....)

Thank you all for your support and I think that this will work out ok in the long run but I have to admit it would be nice to hear from the guy who pulled it. and to you penguinisto yours was the prop I needed to inspire. It all came out of you alls prop. I had sat down to do a very different piece ( somthing sci fi) and I saw your prop. that was it like a bolt.

I guess they think the guy up front looks too aroused and suspect the their must be contact between 1st guys bum and second guys genitalia as they are so close... The thing is I've seen other similar displays (V&M, V&V), but the same rules didn't seem to apply. Maybe the sensitivity to the emotion sent off their alarms. I'm straight and I don't see anything offensive with the work. Maybe we need a nonbiased moderator to look it over.

After seeing some of the gallery content, there is no question that the decision to pull the picture is made soley on the fact that it concerns male homosexuality. Tonymouse's violated no guideline, and in fact was more tame than some heterosexual and female homosexual pictures allowed to stay. This can easily be shown by analyzing gallery content, but judging from this thread, the point doesn't need additional proof.

Of course, Renderosity has the right to exclude artwork for any or no reason. It's just a shame that the moderators don't follow a consistent policy.

In that case, don't thank me, thank Mickey (he came onto the forums and requested a typical suburban tub... so I built one for him :) Then be sure to thank Little Dragon, because he donated the faucet knobs, towel racks, shower head, and all the textures. I only made the tub, spigot, curtain rod, and walls... It's a whole chain of events that led to that prop, my friend - a whole chain that makes it all so. /P

My Philosophy On Life In General: I do not care what you believe in, I believe in what it is I believe in. Therefore we can get along just fine, we can hang out together, talk together, create and share art together and all will be well, BUT, if you should decide to push you beliefs upon me, then that is where the trouble starts. I would like to see this picture as well, not for the meaning of the image, but for the way the lighting is done, placement and posing of characters, textures used, and overall effort of the picture. ~ My 2 pennies worth TMG

Reminds me of an incident here in my little town on Cape Cod some years ago. There was a commuity art show at the local museum, curated by a town resident who happened to be gay/HIV positive. Needless to say, much of the show's content consisted of images of men and men together, none of which aroused any controversy (big gay community here), EXCEPT one big photograph, almost life-sized, of a young man with a significantly-bigger-than-average erection. This in a museum with numerous images of nude women and men, mind you, though none with obvious hard-ons. The little-old-lady contingent went berserk; demanded the image be removed, threatened to withdraw their support of the museum--a couple of board members even resigned. People complained that the image was "violent" and "aggressive" and "harmful to children"--though of course it was none of those things; it was just a picture of a naked guy with a big ol' stiffie, a perfectly normal, natural thing. The moral is that to much of the world, gay men are scary (all that SEX that the rest of us aren't having!), penises are scary, and gay men's penises are the scariest things of all.

Hey Pen I wish that curtin had been ready but I had fun modifying a set of window curtains :)

gay men's penises are the scariest things of all. (in my best John-Travolta-in-"Broken-Arrow" imitation) Yeah. Aint it cool? =)

I don't see anything offensive in it at all. While it's true I'm hard to offend, at least where sexual imagery is concerned, this image is considerably less explicit than many of the m/f images posted here. If the reason this was initially removed is because it depicts two men in what could be considered a sexual situation...well THAT offends me. Why is it okay for people to post pics of two naked women in a sexual pose, or pics of women performing solo sex acts (both of which appear regularly in the Poser gallery), but two men together hits the panic button? That's a bigotry. Either pull the lot or leave the lot alone, explain how it's different. In plain English.

Unfortunately, I can't edit a post. When I refered to "female homosexual," what I should have said was, "female homosexual, and heterosexual male idealization of female homosexual." I think the latter far outpaces the former.

""I didn't see anything sexual. Just affection."" oh please...2 people groping, hugging, hands all over each other clearly not in a effort to scrub any dirt off each other; in the shower (whether they be same sex or not) and you can't see why it has sexual content....tell me you weren't thinking about sex when you made it...heheheheh. I think it and every other image depicting the same thing should be taken down...what sex they happen to be doesn't matter.

Well aureeanna, I hate to tell you this but unlike some out there I don't see sex every where. In my mind it was intamet time after a long hard(not that kind)Day. as for removing it all, I though that was why they had a nudity button. Clearly they need an affection buttion. while I may not agree with you thank you for sounding in.

"oh please...2 people groping, hugging, hands all over each other clearly not in a effort to scrub any dirt off each other; in the shower (whether they be same sex or not) and you can't see why it has sexual content...." Its "sexual content" is implied, not explicit: there's no evidence of "arousal." You see sex, I see joy. The "sexual content" is in your head. "I think it and every other image depicting the same thing should be taken down" Every kiss? Every embrace? Every nude? There'd be nothing left in the galleries.

The lack of respect for all of the hard work we do for you here is amazing. I'm constantly amazed how fast some of you people go for our throats. Right after we give you something nice to use. I'll talk this issue over with the other team members. But I'm pretty sure this image was removed because the poseing looks like the guy is getting rear-ended (so to speak). But of course........that makes too much sense. And it's much, much easier to call us names and get pissed at us. Because you didn't get your way. . ScottA I apologize to the members who enjoy and use this site responsibly. You are the only reason I stay here and put up with this stuff.

Tony - No sweat... nice modification, too. If you ever want to do a re-make of it with LD's curtain set, it's up in Free stuff now, or just follow the link up in mid-thread... same place, same file :) BTW, since everyone else here is too busy wrapped in heavy indignation (or in my case, too wrapped up in artistic joy), I guess I'd better say what everyone else here prolly means to say but forgot to: Welcome Aboard!

To ScottA I hope you read all of the posts Particularly the ones from me since it is my piece I did what I felt was responcible I sent a private email. TO which I have recieve no amswer. I am not bitching about this and want it to come to nothing. I just wanted to make sure tha the playing field was level. But most of all if there is a problem with my work talk to me!! I don't have a proble modifying my work with in reason but I was basing this piesc on the limits I had seen already in the galleries to Penn thanks for the welcome!!! and I hope after this I hope I still am!!

"...I'm pretty sure this image was removed because the poseing looks like the guy is getting rear-ended (so to speak)." Very elegantly put. Nothing homophobic in that! Would you assume the same thing if it was a M/F couple? "But of course........that makes too much sense." Fact is, it's damn difficult to "rear-end" somebody that's standing fully upright; and damned uncomfortable for the rear-end-ee (a matter of angles and things relaxing--or not--as I understand it). Note to tonymouse: if that's what's going on in the image, the guy in front looks WAY too happy!.

Scott, I re-read this thread and I didn't see any name-calling. I see people concerned about discrimination. If this image violates the TOS, then scores of Vicki and Mike images also violate the TOS. I enjoy this site, I believe I use it responsibly, but I also was under the assumption that this was a supportive community open to suggestion and commentary on issues that very much concern artists. After all, a lot of artists produce societal commentary just as compelling as any writer, film maker, or photographer. It is possible to respect hard work and also comment on it and question things. Am I wrong?

Mosca, you spaek as if an expert on the whole "rear-end" business. ;)~

Relax and push out, honey.

For the record!! that is not what is going on in the image. and further to moscas point Unless you are way too limber and hung like a . . it cant be done!! from that angle, or proximity they are further apart(down there) than you think. (take my word for it!!!)

I've started looking into this for you tonymouse. From what I've been told. You were sent an explanation by the person who deleted it. So I don't know why it never got to you. I'll try to get some more info about this and get back to you. In the mean time. Don't sweat it. It's easy to get the wrong idea about what is, and what isn't allowable here. ScottA

Mosca's right; there's no way you can pull off something like that in a typical tub (and trust me, you don't even have to be gay to find that ou- ...umm, I'll stop there before TMI kicks in.) Umm, heh, anyrate, back to the point: The perception of such a specific act could be made (though only by those who have never tried to get frisky with their SO in the shower... heh.) However, I gotta say it Scott: I respectfully disagree that such a conclusion could easily be arrived at, unless the viewer is acting on base assumptions, in reaction to the sight of two men touching in ways that a hetero couple usually would when alone. What those assumptions are depends on the individual, yes? Ah, but that's the bitch about a media that only feeds one sense out of five... you have to construct the rest in your mind, and the mind is unique among individuals. Then again, that is what art is for, no? To let one's imagination fill in those things that the mind cannot otherwise gather from alternate sensory inputs.

Scott, If the image is a violation of the TOS, fair enough. In that case, so are some of mine. The difference is that mine are always m/f images - I create same-sex images, too, but those I post at r'otica. The complaint is about the double standard. If any suggestion of a sexual act is a TOS violation, I can accept that with no problems. I don't like seeing one standard applied to m/f images and f/f images, and a totally different standard applied to m/m. If that's what happened here.

TO scottA All i recieved is a genaric email(see below) saying that I had broken the guidlines. and no way to apeal that I could see. I was confused I had based my choice on other gallerie postings. all of the feed back had been good. so as you can imagin it was bewildering, I will try to "tame" it down but I have to admit I don't want to be responcible for the "dirty minds " of others. I still don't see how I crossed eother of those lines?? Tony, The image you uploaded to the Art Gallery at Renderosity called "There is nothing like a hot shower!!! (nudity)" has been removed for violating the upload guidelines. The guidelines state: "No depictions of physical arousal or sexual acts." The image broke this guideline and has been removed from the Art Gallery. Please refrain from uploading images that break the Art Gallery Guidelines. Thanks, Clint Hawkins Renderosity Administration Content Development and Management www.Renderosity.com

So called "Homophobes" are discriminated against too. Any more, it's like god forbid that a person even alludes to fitting to the slightese part of any description of that word.

You all have very valid points. Although I wish you just come to me and ask me to look into this without screamming FOUL! at the top of your lungs ;-). We haven't had to deal with type of render much. It's kind of a new issue for some of us. And I can see that we might have removed it due to false interpretation. MALE-MALE is kind of a tough to call because....well....we males kinda hang out if you know what I mean ;-) And our TOS states "No Genital contact" We need to somehow enforce a "No Porn" kinda thing while letting people be free enough to post MALE-MALE images without it giving that impression. We are not against this type of thing here. We just need to figure out where our boundaries should be defined. Please give us a little time to see if we can develope reasonable boundaries concerning this kind of thing. ScottA

"So called "Homophobes" are discriminated against too." Yep. Why, back in the good old days you could beat the crap out of a queer and nobody gave it a second thought. Now, all of a sudden, it's like they're HUMAN BEINGS or something. What's the world coming to?

Tony, the rejection of your pic was a too bad act, but on the other hand, I think you could take it as the highest compliment... Let me explain this: those guys have happened just to stay close together in the shower. If your work on their expressions wasn't so good, there would be no suspicions about the nasty thing they was about to do, in the mind of the rejector. So, it just confirms your work was good! So, keep up the good work... ;o)