I would like to know why White Supremacy's hate messages (thinly disguised as art) continue to be allowed in this forum. First Christians then Jews and now Gays (I probably missed the one for African Americans). Hate crimes and bashing are not protected by free speech!

Can you please point out which posts are "white supremacy hate messages"? -Jeff

I think you know who and what I'm talking about. But since I'm in the "minority" I don't expect much to be done. I just wanted to have my say. Thanks.

Okay, but I really don't know at all.

pzrite, send the mods a direct link, they step in really quick, i've noticed from experience. they really don't read all the threads, it's a huge site and very active. dissapointing, but i got over it ;) they might find it a week later, but you can get them there quicker by IM'ing for help. it's their job to check it out too, so demand your service now! ;)

"I would like to know why White Supremacy's hate messages (thinly disguised as art) continue to be allowed in this forum. First Christians..." I thought White Supremacist's WERE Christians?

No offense, but, uh... duh, Jeff. Who could he possibly be talking about other than Legume? Who else does anyone EVER talk about anymore? Lord knows, no one else around here ever does anything that makes any kind of statement, good or bad. Well hey, Darth Vader is usually black, so maybe that will cover African-Americans, too? I mean, he's even a slave to his Emperor "Master" and everything. And since he's all half-mechanical and everything, maybe we can even accuse Legume of making fun of the physically handicapped? Milk it, baby! sigh Some people...

"probably missed the one for African Americans" and the one on African Germans, African Australians, African French, African Japanese, African Dutch and of course African Africans

I never said Darth Steve was gay, just flamboyant. There's a difference. You just ASSUMED he's gay because you bought into the stereotype YOURSELF.

The limp wrist, pearls and Legumes comment and title pretty much says it all Says what? that is how you people see gays Uh... no, actually. Maybe you do? Remind me to stand up for your rights sometime. No thanks. I just love how you people run to Legumes side to defend him. I don't think this referred to me so I'll leave that one alone. :)

"I just love how you people run to Legumes side to defend him" For your information, Legume is a notorious ass bandit. I doubt if you'll get a date now, after your wild accusations.

Bravo! How dare he presume to suggest what the meaning of his own art is!

My only comment is if you dont like his work then dont go to his gallery to look! As for me I find great humor in most of his stuff, and if your saying I have no right to view it then your infringing on My rights.

What can I say to that? Isn't that the way it's SUPPOSED to be? Isn't that just another way of saying, "since a whole bunch of people really seem to like it, I don't expect it to be removed at the request of a very few individuals who don't"?

Remember the recent controversy over the southern cross flag. African Americans were insulted and degraded by the very sight of it. The good ole boys claimed it was part of their history and they wanted to keep it flying over their government building, irregardless of what it represented to so many people. I agree many people these days are oversensitive to what is not politically correct. While others simply respect other's feelings. The continuous use of such symbolism (Hitler, the swastika, gay stereotypes, etc) shows not only a total lack of respect for other people, it announces to this forum (and the world) that "I am going to send a message and I'm proud of what I'm saying" It makes me sad that the KKK and White supremacy groups used to be somewhat hidden and clandesant, but have now come "out of the closet" using the free speech BS as some sort of sheild. Obviously this problem is not isolated at Renderosity, but this type of "art for the sake of confrontation" saddens me and makes just one more unsafe to be. You all have your right to look at it, defend it, give it life and make it grow. But in the end it's still what it is...a step back into the wrong direction.

So, what you're saying is that it's wrong to depict Hitler AT ALL, even if it's in a ridiculous pinup where he's holding an armadillo? It's wrong to RIDICULE him? You condemn artwork that MAKES FUN OF HITLER? Now who's a Nazi? "I agree many people these days are oversensitive to what is not politically correct." Yes, that's true, and you are a prime example. You want to know what that 'free speech BS' is? That's any speech that YOU disagree with. I'm going to waste my time here and address your initial post once again. I want you to explain to me in exact terms, how my images depict HATE of Christians, Jews, or Gays. Never mind, DON'T BOTHER. In fact, why don't you just shut the hell up? Oh, wait, I forgot, you have FREEDOM OF SPEECH, don't you?

I'm sorry, perhaps I prejudged you, in which case the worst I can accuse you of is being insensitive, which isn't a crime. Hate and prejudice have many degrees, from simple insensitivity to intolerance all the way to violence. I guess I'm just having a hard time seeing where your artwork is coming from, what motivates you, is there a message? And yes I DO disagree with forms of free speech that cause pain and suffering to others. When I say people hide behind that constitutional right, I mean that the original intent of the law was to allow people to speak out against injustices in the government, not to abuse other people. I'd like to think (hope) I'm wrong about you and that you are just an off-the-wall, fun-loving guy. It's just very hard to tell with some of the artwork you have produced.

If people believe in what they are saying, such as the post which challenged Legume's interpretation of his own artwork, then why do they delete their posts? Could it be that they are ashamed of what they've said?

If I show this picture to one of my openly gay co-workers on Monday, he'll be terribly offended ... that I didn't email it to him over the weekend so he could show it to his friends. Look at Legume's stuff. He takes pot shots at all different subjects - especially anything that people try to take too seriously. Does he go over the edge sometimes? Yes. But he makes people laugh, and he makes people think.

Thou shallst not CLASSIFY people" _When do we stop classifying humans in categories, why not making "lists" of humans by category or "races" ? Let our Political systems and "Responsible" ones_LOL ,as many as they are, do that. They always LOVE to do this...and they certainly did and still do it. Just let's ignore them, they are the biggest losers and the causes of decadence and were, are (and would be) the only responsible of the end of any Civilization (Their own ones too,which is a non-sense and the summit about Stupidity). I think the french joke ("Les Guignols de l'Info", french arrogant and so clever marionnetts on some french channel, execellent !)" "YOU watch too much TV !" could be one of the first step to escape the real Webcob and let the spider die ! (The famous George Orwell's BIG BROTHER")..anywhere it's gonna fall. _And you know what we should do ?...just "wait and see" them drowning in their Ocean of Stupidity, in a very soon future and forever,...for these two reasons: _1)_They are in the same boat (our planet) as the ones they fight, and the risk is REALLY for them to be the losers IS NOT EXCLUDED (less and less). _2)_You know...No one can't kill all birds... Is that okay or am I deliring ? Okay, in the short term, they seem to win. Let's see. But: Whew...!!! Let's please calm down about this one or that one Supremacy, and too much paranoia about them, because, until we prove that WE can stop this abheration process, if there were two humans left on earth, I suppose they'd try to kill each other. And this is this state of minds THAT HAS TO CHANGE INSIDE OURSELVES TOO, hasn't it to ? _OR EITHER, FORGET ALL, it would be REALLY "No future!" for no one on Earth, and maybe now you do get now what the 80's Punks tried to mean... Just let's calm down, please,...think it's the only thing we can do....because, after all, except getting "Bread" & "Circus Games", what do Citizens get, anyway and anywhere ? I'm not at all pessimistic, though...This is a very old story, and soon everyone on earth together will reject this crap out of this world, just because "The Future will be what humans will do out of it" Hubert Reeves ...Up to us staying vigilant ! Alfie (nickname: liftan)

I just hate these threads where everybody is arguing, but yet everybody is right at the same time. :/ I haven't seen a whole lot to "think about" since the original MPP stuff, but I have recently found myself wondering what certain people's true motives might be.

What this illustrates for me is how few people who preach the defense of a certain social group from offense do so with any degree of sincerity. So, Mr. Pzrite- you take it as your duty to protect the rights and conscience of black, homosexual, and christan persons whom you assume will be harmed in some manner should they view certain artworks. In that case, I have a few points I would like clarified. Firstly, who asked you? If the answer is "no one", then admit that you speak for yourself. Good enough. In that case you wish to protect yourself from offense or harm by viewing these artworks. Don't look at them. But for the deity of your choice's sake, stop hiding behind socially acceptable rationalization to justify your essentially saying "I don't like this art, take it down." Easily done- buy Renderosity.

First of all, I am prejudice as the next person. Everyone is prejudice, I don't care what they say. (However I believe everyone should be treated with equal respect) I too also hate people who "speak for God" or speak for their particuliar organized religion. Especially if they try and push their own religion on other people. I don't speak for anyone except myself. I have/had relatives who were directly affected by Hitler and by that Nazi flag that represents HATE! As I said in my previous post, I was just driven to ask the artist what drives him to display such "politically incorrect" symbolism. I don't push my ideals on anyone and I hate people who push their ideals on me.

"As I said in my previous post, I was just driven to ask the artist what drives him to display such "politically incorrect" symbolism." That's not what you said when you started this thread... "I would like to know why White Supremacy's hate messages (thinly disguised as art) continue to be allowed in this forum" That is not 'just asking the artist'. That is putting your own condemning label on it and demanding that it be censored. Legume is responsible for the art he posts and you are responsible for the comments that you post.

My two statements were coming from the same place. I originally didn't want to get personal (I still don't) and point fingers at one person or name names. I will stop short of calling a person a racist, especially if I don't know the person. That's why I was trying to keep it general. And yes, if the art is being created from (or for) hate's sake, I still think they should not be allowed in the forum.

You've said your piece, then, and expressed your desires. The PTB can take it from here. Realise, however, that one person's word may not be enough to establish that a particular work is created for hate's sake. The artist claims it was not, I believe.

WHY should an artist's motives or political views even matter? If Atilla the Hun made really good fried chicken, does that mean it's not right to eat it? Please don't think I'm attacking Mongolians with this comment.

Actually Legume, that precise argument has been made only in a different context. Huge ethical and legal debates have ensued over whether or not it is ok to use information learned from medical experiments/torture during the Holocaust in modern research, since many of those experiments cannot be legally repeated today. Dr. Mengele was a mass murderer and torturer, but also happened to glean some interesting information from his "twin experiments" for example. Personally, I think it's a stupid debate. If you can tear a silver lining out of a black pit of hell and despair for the greater good of humanity, why the hell not?

"And yes, if the art is being created from (or for) hate's sake, I still think they should not be allowed in the forum." "Realise, however, that one person's word may not be enough to establish that a particular work is created for hate's sake." Is hate illegal now? It's a valid emotion. Is it going to help things by bottling it up and pretending 'bad' things don't exist? What if I create an image based on my hatred for child molestors?

Kieraw, I'm familiar with that particular controversy, and I agree, It's STUPID AS HELL. The very idea that medical knowledge that could be used to save the living goes unused in deference to the dead is preposterous. Here's an interesting hypothetical situation for you. Let's say that "Saul Greenberg" was killed by Josef Mengele, and that Mengele discovered something during his experiments that would cure a horrible and painful disease, one with anal chancres and eyeball tumors, let's call it "Leguminosis". Because it was discovered by Mengele, the medical community isn't allowed to use the information, because it's "wrong". Later Saul Greenberg's grand-daughter "Dorothy" develops a terrible case of Leguminosis, and, because of the medical establishment's inability to use the research of Dr.Mengele, she is forced to live out the next 70 years in unspeakable agony. Using that research to end poor little Dorothy's pain would be WRONG, wouldn't it?

It's so easy to get drawn into all sorts of hypothetical questions. As it was said before, sometimes there is no right or wrong answers. I started this thread because of the way >>I<< felt. I was not trying to speak for any group or debate any moral issues. I, myself, would like to not see bigotry and hate messages in my Poser art. I still don't know if that was the intent though. As I said, Legume might be just a whacky strange kind of guy that has not experienced being on the other end of a situation where he felt demoralized or abused. On the other hand he might be a member of some radical skin head group that paints swastikas on temples. So, yes in that case, it does make a big difference (TO ME)at what is at the heart of his artwork.

I personally feel a tad offended by some (but not most) of Legume's work, but I don't usually see anything in his work that specifically targets any individual group in a hateful way. The point of my little illustration (that Legume expounded upon) is that there are many ways at looking at what is right and wrong. Just because 99% of renderosity's members don't feel that nudity is wrong doesn't mean that the 1% feelings are invalid, but an entire community shouldn't roll over for a minority, even a small margin. All of the Legume haters just don't get it. The more you post book length diatribes, campaign against his AOM nomination and win, and harangue him about being in the Top 20, the more fun it has to be for Legume. =)

Where are you going with this, pzrite? To let us know that you find Legume's art unfit for public viewing, basically? Ok, we know. Now what? Do you think on the basis of your opinion, that instead of according you the discernment granted most adults, it should be removed from the site so that it won't offend you? Then contact Tim, or tammy, and make your case.If not that, then what resolution do you want?

Oh, "we know" means we know you think something along those lines, not we know it's unfit for viewing. ;]

I really don't know how to answer that Micheleh, I know I didn't post for the reason of causing trouble. I wrote how I felt. So let me turn this around on you, suppose you saw something posted that offended you (as a person or a group). Probably you would do nothing. Suppose you saw it again, and then something again by the same person. Then what would you do? What am I going to do? Probably just shut up (I've said all I felt I needed to say) and avoid any other images by artists that are known to offend me. And hopefully give people something to think. End of story.

HEY ......... LEAVE IT......... THE PERSON who wrote the story did not point fingers. Imagine an intel officer telling the US senates, Intel officer : sir.... we have terrorist in the country. one of the senator : who ? Intel officer : why does it matter ? terrorist in the country. Freak out !!! As for who wrote the message, don't throw arguments if you can't prove it. Otherwise pulling a fight and that's what you did.

This is an interesting, yet "old" discussion. I usually don't bother with any discussion unless the person who brought it up says exactly what he/she is talking about. Pzrite didn't do that, at least initially. The problem I have with Legume is that he doesn't really seem to care about anyone who opposes him. That is why he sends IM messages saying F*ck you, and gets really hostile when he is opposed. Here is a good quote from Legume's own words. In this example, Legume doesn't even signify any value in the opposing opinion.: "So, what you're saying is that it's wrong to depict Hitler AT ALL, even if it's in a ridiculous pinup where he's holding an armadillo? It's wrong to RIDICULE him? You condemn artwork that MAKES FUN OF HITLER? Now who's a Nazi? "I agree many people these days are oversensitive to what is not politically correct." Yes, that's true, and you are a prime example. You want to know what that 'free speech BS' is? That's any speech that YOU disagree with. I'm going to waste my time here and address your initial post once again. I want you to explain to me in exact terms, how my images depict HATE of Christians, Jews, or Gays. Never mind, DON'T BOTHER. In fact, why don't you just shut the hell up? Oh, wait, I forgot, you have FREEDOM OF SPEECH, don't you?" ***** Oh my god, this is the person who was voted Artist Of the Month?! I thought that title would go to someone who has some amount of respect for this artistic community. That includes people who might have differing opinions. Ron

Legume wrote:- Here's an interesting hypothetical situation for you ... There was an article about this sort of moral dilemma in the Daily telegraph (UK newspaper) a while ago. It was called "Citations of shame". It was about scientific articles that use results got by that sort of unacceptable means. One example that I read of is that (some modern work on designing immersion suits for people who fall into cold sea) uses results on immersion in cold water that were done in a wartime concentration camp and published in a German scientific periodical.

Ron, Why should Legume's personal philosophic viewpoints or opinions determine if he should be artist of the month or not? Just because his viewpoints may be a bit abrasive to your sensitive personality, doesn't change the following facts... 1.)One everyone is entitled to have a viewpoint. Which you, for better or worse, proudly display on a regular basis, I might add... 2.)Legume should be allowed the same ability to voice those viewpoints, same as anyone else, like you, for better or worse, prominately display on a regular basis, I might add... 3.)Enough of the members on this site voted for him, speaking their own opinion and viewpoints about the good Doctor, opinions and viewpoints which the owners had to take into consideration, much like they have to take your, for better or worse, opinions and viewpoints into consideration as well, I might add... All of that leads to the fact that no matter what your personal feelings are about Legume, your viewpoint and opinion didn't measure up to the support and demand of our current Artist of the Month... As for your reason for not liking Legume because he, as you said, "doesn't really seem to care about anyone who opposes him", I find this to be a laughable excuse on your behalf... Why, you may ask...? Simple, why in the HELL should he give a rat's ass about the people that oppose him? Think about your logic for a moment... doesn't this mean that you really care about all of the people that oppose your viewpoint? I can name a few people that you've really had a tussle with earlier this week because they "opposed" you... you telling me that in your beration of that certain individual (who's name I won't mention, but his initials are: "DENDRAS"!!!), you actually cared about that person's viewpoint even though he opposed your's? Hmmmm... I really don't think so, or you did an excellent job of covering it up by being abusive, callous, egotistical to the point of downright nastiness and pissed and moaned... Gee, sounds like you have MORE in COMMON with the good Doctor Legume than you thought you did. I am so sick of some people here, for those individuals that have been so nasty to Legume and to others who are members of this "Community" whether anyone likes it or not. I guess for them it seems to make more sense to be pathetic enough to point fingers, piss and moan and running to Admins anytime their over-inflated sensitive egos or fragile narrow minds are offended or threatened in this "Community"... than to sit there, shrug and move on with their own lives and avoid or ignore the crap that makes them into whiney school yard children. I may not always agree with Legume or be fond of some of his work. But, one thing I can say about Legume is that he is an unique individual. He tolerates the shit people throws his way. He doesn't piss and moan or whine to the admins if he gets a ONE or a NASTY comment in his gallery. He doesn't make public posts flaming individuals, calling them names, swearing at them, send them hate mail or Private Messages... he takes it, like a man, shrugs and continues doing his own thing... if anything, Legume is far better than allot of individuals in this "Community". And that... that is pretty sad, people... Of course that is just my viewpoint and if you oppose it, well tough shit, I could care less also!! Jack

"Now who's a Nazi?" Hey, uhh, Ron, buddy, that's almost calling him a Nazi, which seems to me like a personal attack, so just watch it, OK?

Jack D. Kammerer, You know nothing of my feelings, my attitudes. I respect other people's opinions as long as they don't swear at me, call me names, and threaten to come over to my house and finish the discussion. I don't rant and rave "shut the fuck up." I don't send IM's saying Fuck You. I at least attempt to have a meaningful dialogue where opinions may be expressed on both sides. I don't think I've ever seen Legume respond to anyone's disagreement in a civil manner. Gosh, should Legume or anyone else care about people who disagree with them? I thought Renderosity was a community where people come together with a common bond. I thought this was a positive bond, not an excuse to insult, persecute, threaten people and go running for help if someone stands up to you. Oh, and I thought there was a set of rules, called TOS (for short) that helped govern our behavior here. It seems you and others do your best to prove me wrong. *** MikeJ, ""Now who's a Nazi?" Hey, uhh, Ron, buddy, that's almost calling him a Nazi, which seems to me like a personal attack, so just watch it, OK?" Those are Legume's words. I clearly quoted them in my message. If you have a gripe with those words, go to the source. Ron

Well, if you're quoting, then use quotation marks. That's what they were invented for. Sorry if I wrongfully accused you.

You might want to spend more time reading before you react. Look at this part of my message again, if you please: **** Here is a good quote from Legume's own words. In this example, Legume doesn't even signify any value in the opposing opinion.: "So, what you're saying is that it's wrong to depict Hitler AT ALL, even if it's in a ridiculous pinup where he's holding an armadillo? It's wrong to RIDICULE him? You condemn artwork that MAKES FUN OF HITLER? Now who's a Nazi? "I agree many people these days are oversensitive to what is not politically correct." ***** Notice I said "Here is a good quote from Legume's own words." That's a good tipoff.

Ronknights said: "I thought Renderosity was a community where people come together with a common bond. I thought this was a positive bond, not an excuse to insult, persecute, threaten people and go running for help if someone stands up to you." So you're are exempt from your own thoughts as to what this "common bonded community" should be? Because I have witnessed you insult people, I have seen you persecute people, I have seen cases on the forums where you have threatened people and I have seen you go running for help as soon as someone stood up to you... so... you are exempt from this utopia that you think R'osity should be... curious... I don't see Renderosity being a Community of Common Bonded people... thank God!! I see Renderosity as being is Community of Diverse Individuals who have come to share their artwork... REGARDLESS of Race, Religion, Political standings, differing viewpoints and/or opinions with each other. The freedom to express those viewpoints in both forum discussions or individual artwork... The minute that your COMMON BONDED utopia is established here, then Renderosity would undoubtedly become the standard of censorship and a site filled with a bunch of mindless automatrons pumping out image after image of the same BS, day after day... Jack

Look Man, where I went to school we tend to keep our thoughts grouped together in sentences which remain on the same line. You can argue with me 'til you're blue in the face, but that line, "Now who's a Nazi?" is on a separate line, separated by a whole space above and below it. It LOOKS like a separate thought, displayed like that, and additionally it SOUNDS like something you might say. Also, it's not in qoutes. I guarantee you I can read, and I also think I have a reasonable grasp at communication, and equally, I try to follow at least some semblance of "rules" when typing and composing sentences. Now why don't you just scurry along and hang out with your myriad of admirers in the Poser Forum some, and for your own sake, don't even look in this thread again.

Hmmm... an egotistical, sarcastic reply from Ronknights to MikeJ... good to see that you practice what you preach Ron... don't insult people my ass..!! Jack

"Look Man, where I went to school we tend to keep our thoughts grouped together in sentences which remain on the same line." When I am quoting someone, I copy and paste their words. I don't rewrite them. Again, if you have a problem with Legume's words, talk to him. **** Jack, there was no insult there. I just made a constructive suggestion that someone should read closer before they react. "So you're are exempt from your own thoughts as to what this "common bonded community" should be? Because I have witnessed you insult people, I have seen you persecute people, I have seen cases on the forums where you have threatened people and I have seen you go running for help as soon as someone stood up to you... so... you are exempt from this utopia that you think R'osity should be... curious..." I deny those charges. What I think is most interesting is that people condone overly aggressive and abusive behavior on the part of those they support. But when someone who disagrees speaks out, then they have much stricter rules and over-inflated, untrue claims. Oh and I just love it when someone keeps bothering me, I keep telling them to leave me alone, and they run for help because I'm harassing them?! Dendras writes me an IM that basically says f*ck off, then threatens to come to my house to fight, and then complains about harassment?! Gosh, that is certainly acceptable, isn't it. Get real.

"Again, if you have a problem with Legume's words, talk to him." Did you not notice the part where, above, in message #42 where I said, "Sorry if I wrongfully accused you."? You know, I've decided though: Arguing with you is like arguing with a small child. Nothing gets through.

"Now why don't you just scurry along and hang out with your myriad of admirers in the Poser Forum some, and for your own sake, don't even look in this thread again." "You know, I've decided though: Arguing with you is like arguing with a small child. Nothing gets through." **** Gosh, I thought we were trying to have a discussion. Personally I don't like arguments if people think they're an excuse to insult others.

I have to agree with your assement Mike of his disposition, it is a waste of time trying to talk to someone who thinks that they are a Martyr... Jack

Damn, Ronknights is the best friend Legume's ever had, and he doesn't even know it! I mean, every time he gets involved in one of these Legume-bashing threads, by the time he gets done shooting his mouth off everyone hates him so much that they all pile on him and forget all about Legume! Ronknights is the best defense Legume could ever have. Keep up the good work, Ron!