Here's another suggestion then, since my other one isn't what some people want- Confine it to one thread. This one even. Got something to get off your chest about PFO? Say it here. All of it. Let it all hang out, since this is what you want. Peace isn't wanted. So go for it. Post it all here, making it easier on the R forum members to only have to see one thread instead of a bunch on the same subject.

Actually Warrior, I think it's all coming to a head. I think changes are in the works, and I think things will get a lot better from here on in. The PFO has some damned good talent monitoring the forums, maintaining the site, and offering tech help. These guys have earned their wings, and I think they'll do great things without the heavy handedness of the old regime to hold them down. The strong will survive and go on to do great things.

Freak, :o) in case you hadn't noticed over there, I'm right below the Admiins, ie a moderator. I know what's going on over there, and have been trying to be an ambassodor of getting some friggin' peace around here and there. What I post here, I tend to post there too in these regards. But appearently some don't want that peace, hence this suggestion above.

Well--I hope you realize most of my venom is directed towards Willow and Grey (at this point) and I'm afraid I refer to Willow and the PFO synonymously. Since it appears that they have stepped back for the moment, I am trying to make an effort to not blame the crew along with the figureheads. You guys are in control at this point. (I'm assuming the official line that Willow and Grey are not actively involved with the PFO at this point in time) This is your chance to patch things up in the Poser community. (And a community patch will be the SECOND most anxiously awaited patch associated with Poser in recent events)

Well I for one hope that feelings between our two sites will improve. I'm not talking a reconstitution of the two sites, but at least be on each other's good sides. Besides, like the man said, Two Heads are Better than One. We both have some kick-arse talent. I wish the PFO luck. Nick Noel

"This is your chance to patch things up in the Poser community." I have nothing to patch up. I'm trying to be a neutral peace bringer with common sence :o)

Warrior sez: I have nothing to patch up. Look at the community--SOMETHING needs to be patched up (I'm not holding you responsible for the problems--but I am holding you partially responsible, along with the rest of us, for a solution.) I'm trying to present what I feel are the major problems contributing to the rift, without the venom. I'm trying to argue the problems without getting defensive, hysterical, or personal, and I don't plan to hold you responsible for problems that I consider to be created by Willow, or others, in an attempt to silence civil dialog. Many of us followed Willow that night of the "Error 50" chat because we felt that she had been wronged. Would it have not served her best interests to support those loyal followers by supporting the members when they felt they had been wronged--regardless of a difference of opinion.

For me to have to patch something up, that would imply I had something to do with the rift in the first place :o) BTW, my above post that you just quoted is just a play on words that mean the same thing as what you intended. I know you're not saying I personally caused anything. :o) My view- We don't need to know the problems. Everyone has a view on what they are. What we need are solutions, which I have offered. Twice. Two different ones. I don't see any others.

Here's another solution: Put your knowledge all together and let there be two different sides related to our favorite graphic software. Take the chance to learn from each others leaders, members, artists. I do not care who is the owner of "poserforum.com". all i want is a place where i can share my thoughts and pictures with people like me. i guess that was in your (and PFO's)mind the time you founded or took over this place. as simple it sounds as hard it is to realize? c'mon guys 'n girls don't disappoint me. We're human!

Here's my solution: Respect the members enough to allow them to complain or voice real concerns about the PFO. You can't stop what other administrators (or even the founders) are doing behind your back, but the members will let you know, if you listen to them. Most of the complaints about the PFO have stemmed from personal e-mail attacks and barrages, stating misinformation as fact, madmouthing other members, and making those who have an opinion look like idiots. I'm NOT holding you, or the innocent contributors of the PFO, responsible for the actions of what I consider to be a minority of power holding sadists in the PFO. But if you turn a blind eye to the problem, then you're guilty of depraved indifference. If an administrator of the PFO does something that is obviously WRONG to one of the members--then you, as an individual, need to shine the spotlight on that person and let them know, to the whole forum, that this sort of abuse will not be tolerated. The legalities of the feud that concern Jack, Willow, or Grey are non issues for most of the members. But attacking a member in a manner that does not allow them to defend themselves in a dignified manner hurts the entire community. Willow and Grey need to show her members the same respect and support they have shown her--tearing into Pan or 2nd Planet or whoever gets in their way is only going to alienate more of the members.

I understand what you are trying to do Warrior, but I really do think a stand has to be made about the altering of a post and the only way several of us have to do that is to make a post, ask to be removed from the forum and maybe that will be a 'heads up' that this CAN NOT be acceptable behavior and even applauded. I also think just letting everyone 'vent' is okay. Most of it is directed at past behavior and what I'm seeing is the hope that there will be a shift in the forum's attitude with, 'hopefully', saner heads prevailing--sans one, sadly. Diane B

Diane, the "Post alteration" of 2ndplanet's is a new thing to be flaming about. I started doing this before that :o) As for what happened there, I read in another thread that you said no one had a problem with that, etc. I did. I took Dave to task for it. But privatly, in ICQ. Because what I said to him is no one elses business.

Thank you for taking him to task. Someone needed to--but it does amaze several of us that no one on the forum has said-'hey, what ARE you doing?' Diane B

Diane- I just did. I'm not out to fan flames, or keep the war going. I am, and will always be Pro-PFO, but I am anti-immaturity. Hopefully my words there will speak for me. JonRD463 "Look for the ridiculous in everything, and you will find it." -- Rober Smith, The Cure

Re: ..and it continues to fester... Well, if anybody is modelling Fester, my favorite version is the one from the original TV series, not the movies or the comic strip (although, technically that is truest to the original intention, it wouldn't make a good model). Ciao! Joe

Yeah! Jackie Coogan! Christopher Lloyd couldn't touch him with a ten foot pole!

Warrior sez: I did. I took Dave to task for it. But privatly, in ICQ. Because what I said to him is no one elses business. I'll agree that disputes between administrators and founders of both forums are probably of no concern to the general membership. However, a case that involves a betrayal of trust to the members of the forum is a different matter. I would say that a case like this jeopardizes the integrity of the PFO. A public repremand displays a good faith effort that this sort of activity will NEVER happen again, and will NOT be tolerated by the forum. The members and administrators should have the penalties for such actions clarified, so they know what actions can be taken to address those concerns in the future. To do anything less weakens the integrety of the site, and assures little or nothing to members who fear something like that may happen to them. Grey misrepresented a lot of facts (and provided wild speculation about others) in his goodbye message (especially about the Props Guild). This too should be corrected publicly by the PFO. To toss these accusations and speculations around wildly, and not be held responsible for them also serves little to help the integrity of the PFO. If something happens to one member, then it affects all the members. If the PFO feels its in their best interest to reserve the right to publicize and apologize for mistreating and misrepresenting certain members, then the members may start reserving their right to post and visit on the PFO. Being open about these matters will do nothing but good. Admitting to the problems, and taking the effort to correct them publicly will maintain trust. Bad things happen, but the members are a lot more forgiving if those in charge are honest with them about the problems, and possible solutions, that will affect the members.

You have to admit though- Lloyd's version was the closest of any of the TV versions for all of the characters :o) Well, Christina Rikki's version of th egirl was pretty good too. But the TV versions were all still better. John Astin was great :o)

Yeah, Ricci made a FANTASTIC Wednesday Addams. I'd want a daughter just like her if the agency ever allows me to breed again. I can't blame them though, especially after what my first child did.

Freak, so it's up to you to be Jack's mouthpiece and for me to be Grey's? Wrong. They need to hash it out amoung themsleves, and not bring us into it, as has happened. I say again- None of this is any of the members business except those directly involved. I am not speaking for Grey, Willow or anyone else. The PFO needs to say nothing. I am a part of the PFO. The PFO is a community of people. Those people didn't say anything. Individuals did. Just as you are now. What you say isn't what Renderosity is saying. It's what you as an individual are saying. Renderosity is a community too. What you refer to is individuals.

My daughter imagined she was just like Wednesday L Now, where'd she put her little sister...

Freak, so it's up to you to be Jack's mouthpiece and for me to be Grey's? No--thats not it at all. Individuals have to stand up against what they feel is wrong, and an organization should show good faith to its members. This is not about "Renderosity vs the PFO", its about the "PFO vs. its own members". It's been obvious for a while that the PFO is trying to go in a direction dictated by a handful of people. The members are being trampled in the process--many members are being trampled for doing what you're trying to do, bring peace into the community. It appears to me (and this is my opinion) that Willow and Grey don't want peace, they want their way. They want to, once again, direct the flow of communication at the hub of the Poser community. I for one, do not feel the need to buckle under to relive someone else's "glory days."

Well, I don't let people trample me :o) I don't give up the cause of peace easily either. Anyways, Grey and Willow are not on the PFO at this time. So I'm gonna get blasted for this, I know, but such is life- Why is this still going on about them to members? Why are they still being discussed? Someone mentioned here (forget which thread because there are so many) that a person should be able to defend themselves. Regardless of whether or not they are gone by choice or whatever, they are NOT here to defend themsleves. They are gone. End this crap now. New management is in place over there. Some call it "a new beginning". I see this new beginning being poisoned before it even has a chance.

I suspect that what Freakachu is talking about is what is known as "damage control" in certain circles. Administrative personnel are nearly always perceived as acting for the organization rather than as individuals and when one of them makes a mistake or steps out of line, it reflects directly on the organization. If this occurs publicly, then it needs to be redressed publicly either in the form of a formal apology or statement from the main organization or in some sort of punitive action (court martial, removal from office, that sort of thing) in full view of the public. Nobody with any sense expects you to speak for Grey or anyone other than yourself. At least I don't expect that. I do think, however, that it would be a good idea for the PFO staff to issue a statement or something letting the members know that these were the actions of individuals and were not in any way indicative of the policies of the Forum Administration and that steps are being taken to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

continued A disclaimer if you will. A sort of "the views expressed in the following program do not reflect the views of this station" type of thing. A simple notice on the opening page, for instance, stating that "certain members and former members of the administrative staff have acted in a manner that is not in keeping with the policies and practices of this forum and are being dealt with" should be sufficiently acceptable, as far as I'm concerned. That shows the membership at large that management is aware of the problem and is making an effort to correct it. Where's the harm in that? Couldn't hurt and it might actually be a step in the right direction towards repairing some of the damage they have suffered lately. And in direct keeping with the topic of this thread "and it continues to fester" I am going to say that yes, it does. When the cause of the wound cannot be removed and the wound cannot be properly cleansed, it will fester. My previous suggestion may be one of the steps in beginning to heal the wound and stop the festering. Kate

I agree with Kate. Plus, I haven't seen anything to indicate there is actually new management over there. I haven't seen a posting saying such, and the team info web page still says the same thing it always has. If there truly is a new team in place, I'm all for supporting them. my personal opinions, fur

Warrior, in reference to Ian and Willow's inability to defend themselves, the have every opportunity to, just as YOU have the the ability to defend them. Despite the fact that it was a mass email from Mr.Grey that BEGAN this current series of threads, they choose not to, instead dropping out of sight. You really don't seem to be gaining much ground here in your crusade to end the war, because there's too much bad blood for some folks to forget. You defend the admins of the PFO, and you believe them to be persons of good character. Perhaps if this is so, you can explain things to Ian and Willow as eloquently as you have to us here, and they, being reasonable people, will choose to do the more mature thing and end the public hostilities themselves. It is as much within THEIR power as it is the people here. If Willow would apologize publically and profusely (and with the same amount of energy she used to alienate them in the first place) to every person who believes they were vilified by her, and if she would promise to treat her members with the respect that they deserve, perhaps some of them might consider giving her a second chance.

Warrior, I have a bone to pick with you. You my friend you are fueling this fire as much as anyone else. You won't simply let people speak there mind. Instead, you keep pushing your agenda for peace which seems to essentially be responding to eveyones who is talking about "it" and saying to them "lets stop talking about it", meanwhile you point out how they are misinformed or misguided. I have an idea for you. Leave people alone and stop pestering them. Let them vent it will eventually pass and settle down just like it did when the forums split. Rational minds will prevail. Also, If the PFO or Renderosity staffs have any announcements, corrections, or defending to do they are more than capable of doing so. I don't think you need to be their moderating mouthpiece to us unless they have officially asked you to be. So stop for a minute and look in the mirror and I ask yourself if your are helping or hindering this situation, in my opinion you are doing the latter. As I said before people have already made their decisions as to who is right and wrong and I don't think anyone including you will change there minds. People simply wish to speak thier minds cause they are upset. I see nothing wrong with that. So please put away the sharp sticks and stop the jabbing.

Ooooh Legume the great Saint Willow will never apologize for anything since SHE is right and everyone else is wrong.

I suppose this post is useless, but heck, I'm gonna post it anyway. Take it or leave it. I have been guilty in the recent past of slinging mud, and even resorted to childish name calling and generalizations. After really thinking what I, as a Poser user, and artist have to gain by being vocal in my opinions, I've found that it is nothing. Absolutely nothing. I've done a bit of soul searching this morning and afternoon, and I've come to the conclusion that whether I vent, or try to show support; whether I try to ecourage peaceful co-existence, or keep the wounds fresh, it is all but a waste of my time and energy. I agree with WarriorDL's position, and disagree that what he's doing is wrong (per 2ndplanet's post above). Yes, the world is for the most part free, allowing people to speak their minds, but discretion needs to be considered. I won't ask anyone to stop posting their minds, because it's not my place. I am just a visitor here, and nothing more. I do wish to say that how in any way is a post like dmayberry's above anything more than "Naa-na-na boo boo!"? I can picture the rest of the choir sitting in front of their computers nodding along, just like the preacher groupies at a Southern Baptist convention. Anyway, as I said already, this post is useless, and I really can't wait to see what kind of response--if any-- that it gets. JonRD463

That a fact, 2ndplanet? I'm their moderating mouth-piece? Where the hell did I say that? Quite factually I said the opposite. ...hmmm Let's see... Some members of Renderosity insist the PFO members have it wrong, and post their version of the facts, and of course, since they are Renderosity members, they are correct. So I am in the wrong when I point out an incorrection of someone elses post, because I frequent PFO? Mwaaa Haaaa Haaaaa!!!! Sorry, but that is the most double standarded post I have seen yet. Look, 2ndplanet, you appearently have NO idea where I am coming from. I am sick of seeing my friends torn up with this crap. Renderosity members says they're right. PFO members say they are right. I say, who gives shit who is right or wrong. That is the whole point of all of this, isn't it? Who's has to be right and who is wrong. Let me ask you a question- What business is it of yours personally if Jack or Ian or fur or Willow are right? What's your personal stake in it? Your friends? I doubt you've met any of them in person. Maybe you have. But the simple point of the matter is- The slander from both sides needs to stop. If my saying it needs to stop is "festering this", then I will indeed leave, and let you people be childish with "I'm right, they're wrong". You don't want help ending this, you don't want advise from someone who has been there, fine. Just say so, and I am gone. But then, I am wrong, because I frequent at PFO. fur, they need to post what to say Willow and Ian aren't there now? There's a thread there by the staff stating that, there have been threads here by Darrin stating that. But it's PFO. Don't belive them. Only Renderosity is correct. dmayberry, :o) That is the exact thing that keeps it going. continued

Can anyone besides Jack or fur claim a personal stake in all of this that the members must absolutey know of? Or is it something that should have been kept personal? I personally don't give a damn if someone has had a bad time with Willow or Grey. I don't need to hear it, and neither does the public. You yourselves are doing just as much damage as you claim the PFO did. Just always remember something- The PFO and Renderosity are made up of individuals. Slander here works against you just as you say it works against PFO members. 'nuff rambling from me. As if anyone really does care about the people that frequent both places.

ok fellas point taken no more low blows from this peanuy gallery member

Whoa there, warrior, now you appear to be getting extreme. I think you didn't really read my post. You say: "Look, 2ndplanet, you appearently have NO idea where I am coming from." I do. I know what and why you are trying to do what you are doing but I am saying people are far to polarised at this point. you also say: "Renderosity members says they're right. PFO members say they are right. I say, who gives shit who is right or wrong. That is the whole point of all of this, isn't it? Who's has to be right and who is wrong." I said: "As I said before people have already made their decisions as to who is right and wrong and I don't think anyone including you will change there minds." Did I say who is right or wrong? Did I say peopel are right for making up ther minds without having all the facts? NO! i did not. Those two statements are essentially the same just worded different. I will say it once again warrior: I respect what you are trying to do but it is burning you up just like everyone else that tries to get involved. Step back take a break and relise these are just forums. Now since I seem to be having trouble getting my point across I want to make it clear: I am not saying go away, i am not saying shut up, and I am not saying i disrespect your intentions. What I am saying is you aren't putting out any fires by pouring gasoline on them. I am sorry if you can't handle the criticism because you seem more than happy to give it.

OK, Warrior, so please inform us of your personal stake.

fur, my personal stake in the war? Losing friends/resources like Pan etc. My personal stake in what's CAUSING the war? None, which is my point. I know what your stake is. I've read your posts about it. I've read Jacks. I've read Ian's. I've read Willows. Between you four and your stakes, none of it is my personal business, nor is it anyone elses. That is my point. All of these other people carrying on about it- My question is- What's their stake in it?

My guess would be, the same stakes you claim, losing friends.

Warrior, Quick question for you...In this period of adjustment is the PFO going to let members banned by Willow, rejoin? Just curious what the status of that situation is..thanks, Kennect

fur, but if neither side kept going on and on about it, those friends wouldn't be leaving, would they? Kennect (cool name!), I can't speak for the PFO, nor have I been speaking for them. I've been speaking for the members. BUT, if you want me to ask Darrin, I'll surely do that for you :o)

Warrior, It would be interesting to know how the current management feels about the subject....

Alright. I'll ask Darrin about it :o)

Actually I think I have been getting more friendships back with these debates, they get more of the facts of what really happened out in the open, and people can make more informed decisions.