To put things into perspective for everyone (not that I was asked or anything) I'll recount the history of the AOM.

In it's first incarnation it was picked by the site manager (Willow), no membership vote.

In the second it was picked by a Moderator nomination and vote, no membership vote.

In the third it was nominated and voted upon by (a very small fraction of) the members (and largely thought of as worthless).

Will this be any better? I hope so.

-Jeff

I think that MOM would be a good plan. {Besides, Mom would slap me if I didn't vote for her. snicker] Provides a place for people to both excercise their freedom to nominate who they want, and for the others to politic and rig the election to their hearts content. A "win/win" solution if I ever saw one. And still leaves room for all of the "Why the hell did soandso win MOM?!?" threads in the forii. ;] 'Sides, with both the comittee AOM, and the "popular" MOM, we don't really "lose" anything - we gain an opprotunity to honor two [three?] people a month instead of just one. What be like, wrong with that?

No, it's not the end of the world if Renderosity throws away its credibility; it's just sad. This site isn't (or perhaps WASN'T) just a corporate advertisement: for a number of members it represented an artistic online community. Those three words "artistic", "online", and "community" imply a degree of openness one wouldn't demand from microsoft.com. Choosing acceptable artists by politburo takes any shred of credible openness and throws it in the garbage. The politburo has still failed to answer the most important question: would its anonymous committee ever, ever even CONSIDER an artist like Legume, who was elected AOM by a vast margin of the former Renderosity community? They haven't answered because if they said "yes" even the least skeptical reader would see the fingers crossed behind their backs.

Or, the yhaven't answered because answering would burn their anonymity, and break any NDA they had? That's an "are you STILL beating yer wife?" question. ;]

"You know perfectly well that this is the case, " I do? Heh heh. And based on what do you know that? ;] Feel free to be embarrased. In a few days, I'll be a free agent again, with no agenda. And no real need to adhere to any TOS or policy if I decide I don't care to. You can impugn my word then, at your peril, any time you choose. In the meantime, I state MY point of view. I don't honestly give a rats if Rosity likes my views or not - I've proven that enough times. If I think somethings a good idea, I'll say so. If I thinks it's a bad one, I'll say that also. In this case, as I stated, I think it has some merits. It also has drawbacks... and I pointed those out also. You're not speaking for the "mandate" of any committee out of anything that you haven't made up in your own head. And it's worth as much as any self manufactured evidence - the worth of the hot air behind it. Good day to you sir, I'll quit wasting my time with you.

No it's not a "STILL beating yer wife" question, it's a simple question of policy, which the secret committee could answer through the administrators, someone like Audre. If, however, the Shadow Renderosity feels that it cannot give even the slightest hint as to whether they will ever allow another "embarrasing" artist to be chosen by its former community, then that is an answer in itself: namely, that the mandate of the "committee" (if it is more than one person) is specifically to prevent a candidate like Legume from happening again. You know perfectly well that this is the case, and I'm a little embarrased for you having to defend such an indefensible policy.

The above two posts got reversed, I think, because I edited my post for grammer while IB posted the response. Nonetheless I hold by what I said in despite of IB's grandstanding ("Good day to you sir, I'll quit wasting my time with you" -- oh the heartfelt drama! My empty days without Ironbear!). I was not talking to him, but to the artists who have been paying attention to what's been going on lately. I urge any artist who has received the insult of being nominated by the Shadow Renderosity to pull his or her works in protest... though I am equally sure that such urging on my part is unnecessary.

snicker Works for me. I'm only in it for the entertainemnt value. ;]

Feel free to quit wasting your time with me any time now...

As soon as you stop being entertaining. ;]

Leave it to someone at Renderosity to think that's a BAD thing.

"I've just got to disagree with you, zardoz." That's an old news and I guess live will get kind of boring the day you agree with me :]. Seriously, as for the manipulation, I can't see how anybody could have influence on the vote if the committee is announced with or after the nomination. As for the complains, well, both of us stated more than one time, that people who can't stand the heat shouldn't post in a certain forum. ;) Same applies to the committee, nobody is forced to join in, and if one is too sesible for this job it's better to skip it in honor than to hide oneself behind an "anonymous committee". A member/mod/admin who is too sensible and don't do the job for this reason will have all my respect, a member who needs to hide behind an anonymous committee or a clone account, well................. fill in what's politically correct here these days. ::evil grin:: " I've been on the other side of the fence as well for almost two years." Yeah, wish you still were, then at least I don't had to drink my (virtual) beer now in a pub without a roof. ;) As for the history that Jeff mentioned, maybe it's a good idea to get Willow back. As far as I got it, at least she was able to run a site in a totalitarian way without getting utterly absurd. ;) cheers Thomas

The artists that the Secret Committee chose to allow the community to consider -- josecastello, DViL, Lon Chaney, kenbxpst850, the hankster, TBKoen, brschmidt, nitro115, Taron, crommcruac, sms, and jotaele -- do not deserve the insult you threw in their faces. Not even allowing a write-in candidate! I knew Rosity was embarrassed by genuine artists winning in the last two months, but I didn't know it was THAT embarrassed!

Amazing how you can strike a blow for all the genuine artists and insult all those artists in the same breath. What do you do for an encore? ;] ********************************** "and I, of course, am innocent of all but malice." - Fiona of Amber

Well, I was going to get all long winded and eloquent and all and proclaim my wants and desires in regards to this weighty topic, but then I realized, all I really want is one of bonbons's cookies! Regards- Lemurtek

F... any and every "Anonymous" single thing, Cotorsiums & last Contorsions ! Just a parabolic Remark: (talking about Poser software) _Poser is very...virtual...!!! _In Poser and Poser-stuff,humans are represented with n hair, bald, as the basic human characters, male or female. ...then,if you want, you can always add hair..okay ! SORRY ! In the real world, people, women or men HAVE HAIR growing all the time excepted helas, if you are a female h..gs, or neo-nazi big-girl Boys. (I'm not talking about the martyrs who have cancer; in this case, it is of course terrible to lose one's hair, which adds to the ugly misery of this bestial horrible disease. The ones who have cancer are not happy to have no hair. (My son Vincent_31 years old has a brain-tumor and he's going to have x-rays treatment, and will certainly lose his hair for a terrible reason, so maybe you will forgive me if I mistake or lose a little bit some of what this conversation is all about...thanks..) ...But Poser Characters having "basically" no hair is something i am not comfortable , just about how they sem to want rpresent humans: With no hair...some before, tried to present "clean people_white, of course _ with skin-heads, as in Poser. They failed. They were the European nazis. USA help us to get rid of skin-headed anti-natural imbeciles _ hair is like grass, it grows again, like in the holly Nature, that we destroy more and more. This has nothing to do with any kind of stupid idea that Renderosity would have become "Stalinozity". It has something to do with making my point and saying that if Poser was great, it would present the basic human (male or female WITH HAIR, and not bald. This is only a detail, but it is to make you guys think that even Bryce now, and even the old version, had grass and trees in its lanscapes. I just wanted to mean that hair, even long for men, is as natural AS THE GRASS GROWING EVEN AFTER HAVING CUT IT, AND EVEN UNDER TONS OF CONCRETE. _Nobody need to be a skin-head to have a clean mind. I have long hair, and my hair is clean. _I am sorry for those who readthis and lose their hair for some health ofr hormonal reasons, I feel really sorry for these ones. _Just wanted to delire a little bit to unstres everyone here and repeat that you are not here on Stalinozity, but on Renderosity. Making my point and disgress from theconversation with the "hair-thing" is just that I think that Poser Company and Poser stuff shoul respect the Reality a little bit more, and if they want "realistic" rendering, first they should represent humans with hair. Not bald. Because it's a fact that it is the realistic true Reality. Sorry for the skin-heads guys. But they aren't clean when they shave it, and they are not going to change the Nature...(PLease don't tell me that it is a buddhist "wise attitude", don't give me this joke. Theseguys have no b..ls unless they need to be many of them to be able to aggress you or me. They are big Girls. They go to Sports not for the beauty of the match, but for clashes and fight the other camp, which is "foreigner" they are just arrogant volontary bald ignorant drunkards. They are never going to win. (Oh, yes, maybe with Mr. President Beesh...they would try..., because "Mr. Beesh wouldn't do nothing against hooligans. He's one !). Let you hair grow if you're lucky enough to get any ! God bless America with long hair and please, want to keep freedom here ! (Yeah ! Let's grow our brains too ! Poser-Mannequins need to phone Home to get their human hair back, they have enough to look like Barbie-Puppets. Sorry for the poor lost female H..gs and the big shaved Big Girls nazis Boys. (just saw the Pser stuff banner with their bald female puppets and stuff on top of my Renderosity page and ..it just got me on my nerves...Sorry. Nobody can like Everything. I am confused to have disturbed this serious conversation about "anonymous commitee" (who invented this stupid thing ?) and any opportunity of "Stalinozity" which is a total delire...but I don't know what the heck you're talking about ...!!! ..JUST AGAIN: DON'T FORGET SORRY IF I WAS "OUT" OF THE SUBJECT...But I think the real Stalinism would be to create 20 millions forums for anything that has nothing to do with art, OR ART-RELATED, which doesn't excluses free=expression about cartons,pix about politics. Okay ! I said I was sorry about that if out of subject and out of "tune"! ...though I don' think my political cartoons, pix and comments are sung out of tune or are "out of time".. Salut and "Bonsoir chez vous !" F' get it... Alf (liftan)

~sigh~ I doubt the committee will go through every gallery of every artist - too time consuming. While I can understand a commitee choosing, I have to say that in general any administration will hear only fromthose who are unhappy - so byt hat regards for all the messages you received of those yunhappy with the community choosing the artists - there were probably 10x's as many who liked it the way it was and so saw no reason to say anything. As for the outcry when Legume was chosen artist of the month - that is pathetic. An Artist of teh month dpoesn't have to be the person with the best postworked hair or whose work follows such a distinct pattern that you know what it looks like wihtout opening the large image. An artist of the month could/should be that artist which makes the most impact for that month, Legume made an impact - no doubt about it. But somehow I doubt that the most controversial artists will even be considered anymore. There is the magazine now and all the new site vistors it will generate and no one wants to give them the wrong impression. ~sigh~

Well I for one wont be voting for Aom anymore. I have no idea what the PTB are smoking, damn ! How many members are on this commity? Thats how many tastes will be representative of this community. We all have biases on what we like, by restricting the choices to a few styles you are keeping some really good artists from being chosen. What happens if no one on your Panel likes the work of Gevidal or Curio or Whoever? Then that person will automatically be out of the running for AOM. Not to mention if an artist doesnt get along with some of the paanel, or is controversial. This is a terrible decision and makes me wonder just WTF you people are thinking. Is everyone on your Committe going to visit every gallery and view every image? Once again, a wonderful effort at pissing people off and taking away artists choices.

liftan - I don't understand what you are talking about? As for Bald Men my husband shaves his head - his most definitely NOT a neonazi either! He is simply a young man who is losing his hair and so he shaves it - regularly - when he shaves his face (minus mustache and goatee) so his head is indeed smoothly shaven. This does NOT make hima neo nazi or whatever you are choosing to label. Since IU love and adore him my men tend to be bald when I create them. So again not sure what your point there was.

Well Ron I wouldnt worry too much, after this year Im sure they will go back to open catagories each month and Only Poser users will be Artist of the Month. Does the Brick your refering to in your statement look like a pink pony? It seems to me that they changed the rules for the contest strictly to insure that an artist like Legume can never get picked again. Seems that pink pony was sooooo Powerful that it changed AOM.

Just thought I'd mention that there has been very little response in this thread to Audre's suggestion in her post #37 of a concurrent MOM and her subsequent request in post #48 for feedback. What are the chances of focusing some of this discussion on that for a while? If it looks as though folks are more interested in rehashing the AOM situation and not even mentioning, much less supporting, the MOM, seems likely to me that acknowledging artists by purely popular vote won't ever come to pass. brand-new mod retreating now to her own forum

actually i am working on an 'introduction' to the system which will address some of the questions/concerns posted here. just not quite ready as i've gotten other fires to put out and will proabably need a bit more time to get it posted for you. i would like some discussion on the MOM issue though... as it truly IS what the AOM used to be? seems to me this ought to satisfy those members who wish to have a popular vote? thanks

Actually I never liked the idea of an AOM, nor do I like the MOM either. Why is it necessary to turn the membership against eachother every month in these silly competitions that don't mean anything anyway? While I'm sure it's an honor to the one chosen, the ones that aren't are sorely disappointed and thus we get days of name calling, finger pointing, allegations of corruption from the supporters of those that "lose" and for what? So some person can be king of the hill for a month while the 79,999 other people worship his/her greatness, even though some may be far greater, but not as well known. We all come from different perspectives. I doubt no two people out of that 80,000 has the exact same list of favorite artists. Sure, some may match, but others won't. So how can it be fair in any aspect to pick one person to be crowned with an honor that is deserved by hundreds or even thousands.

Instead of all this fuss about AoM and MoM, I think it would be much more fair and helpful to have an artist showcase gallery where each artist could submit what they consider their best work or the work that best represents what they do. Have it random so that each time people go into it, they see different artists. This way people can make their own minds up about who best suits their idea of art. Wouldn't this be much more fair than picking out some person that you will never get a consensus on anyway?

All I know is competition seems to be tearing this place apart. If it's not the AoM, it's the Hot20, not to mention best ranked, most viewed, most commented, best seller, how many views next to you, how many comments, how many ponies in a picture. Okay, scratch the last one, but there is enough competition on here to choke an artist's creative vision already, so why perpetuate it with more? All it seems to do is enflame the membership.

I tend to agree with ShadowWind.... see post #13. Just to take it a little further, how about a contest for favorite admin, or favorite mod, or favorite beta tester..... etc. You get my drift. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, and some people are driven by competition..... look at all the polling for Hot20 there have been. I think it's better to keep the competiions to a minimum and concentrate more on the greatest asset (sp?) you have here which is information sharing and learning.

Ok, I admit, I didn't read the whole thread but I am happy with the way AOM is voted for now, and that there is a committee. Why? Well, I just did a simple little search on Google.com, searched the usenet newsgroups. Interesting stuff about Renderosity, especially at alt.slack.

Yeah, Papu, that's real interesting. Me asking my pals at alt.slack to vote for me, just like folks do in the chat rooms and IMs here at Renderosity. How sneaky of me to ask my fellow SubGeniuses to vote for my art. And I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that most of them are big fans of my artwork, which has been published in their magazines for the last ten years. Yes kids, that's my big sin, having fans of my artwork outside this site, and asking them for their support when I have an opportunity to be recognized for my work. Not that it mattered. I'd have won anyway. The was a large enough contingent of NON-SubGenius artists who voted for me on the backlash ticket, people who understood what the Magic Pink Pony was all about; . By the time the SubGeniuses got involved, I'd already been voted into most of the Poser Hot 20 spots by the "Joke Patrol". The SubGeniuses just made sure it was a landslide ;)

Hmm, not sure 'bout this, ShadowWind, okay, I never took these things too serious anyway and under the conditions now... .... can't care less to know whom some anonymous folks consider AOM. shrug But then, I don't think that all these Hot 20, AOM or what ever, was necessarily a bad thing. A professional artist has to find ways to get the attention of a large audience. So now here * is* a large audience and a good opportunity to practice this important skill. For the 79999 other artist it may be a food of tought and they may learn a lot about what the AOM did better to get attention. For the observer it was an additional joy to see how artists dealt with this difficult task. And maybe one shouldn't be that negative about arguments and fuss. I think artists like Picasso, Schiller, Brecht, Kollwitz... never would had done art if there wasn't the need to express a controversial viewpoint or to develop new way of artistic expression. They caused a lot of fuss and argueing, but I wont miss it, think about how miserable life would be w/o them. :) On the other side see how "art" looks like in totalitarian systems, with anonymous committees and just one viewpoint that is allowed to express. I don't think it's the competition that is "tearing this place apart" it's rather the inability to accept new points of view, the lack of tolerance and the wish to impose the artist's will and to create a kind of Disneyland instead of a place where art can freely thrive and breath. Oh, and Papu, just FYI, the AOM is still voted by members, so I don't think this new way will solve your problem. :) cheer and have a nice weekend.

zardoz, "solve my problem"? hehheh - - - Legume, ok, you had your month, the "SubGenii" had their month (or 2) .... but why overdo it? Let the "PINK BOYS" have a chance too, my dears... ;)

Ahhh, the Pink Boys can HAVE the AOM. I've had my way with it, and now all I want is a good taco.

It seems fairly common sense to me, that the reason for this move is to prevent AOM, (something that should be considered a fairly high accolade for actual 'ability/talent/skill/achievement' etc on the site, and not based on who has done the most networking, arse sniffing or controversy raising or attempted to be 'subversive' that week prior to nomination) becoming an embarrasment because of lack of any visable skill or just a popularity contest. I would think it prudent to reassure the neurotic populance that the 'commitee' is surely made up of an un biased, critical group rather than admin etc!? And I think publishing a mission statement as mentioned above would be a good idea, if only to have it in 'writing' what they are about, and to what standards they are selecting!? Otherwise, just scrap it and then nobody can whine about it any more!? ;)

Adam, I respect your work and your opinion, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I hope I didnt come off in my post as whining, however I have a big problem with this decision and Ill tell you why. It seems everytime I turn around something else is being taken away from the members here lately. I used to frequent a few of the forums, I liked C&D because it seemed to be a free area where members could let it all hang out. I never got into any flame wars or anything, but thought it was a cool place to spend some time, now its gone. I started going to OT and found it to be pretty cool too for about a minute lol. I posted a topic with what I thought to be a simple question, Why a decision was made to suspend a member. I worded in plesantly and without malice, I just wanted to know why. The thread was moved then locked. Well that pretty much ended the forums for me, IB is leaving the tavern whats left? If I cant ask questions and speak my mind in a civil way then they arent for me.I figured no prob, Ill just stick with the gallerys right? Vote for AOM as always, nominate who I think is deserving( not that I think Im always right lol), it was a fun thing to do and feel as if I was in a small way contributing to the community. Now thats gone. So really all I can get from here now are the gallerys themselves. Which isnt at all bad 8-). But it really sucks that one more thing has been taken away from the membership of this site and been put in the hands of powers unknown.You know I found some very good artists checking out the gallerys of the artists up for nomination for AOM, now the most I can discover are the ones up for it.Peace

No Spirit, you didnt come over as whining. In truth I didn't read ALL the posts, getting the general drift from the first few. :) I agree with much of what you said actually, I feel/felt very much the same about the loss of things like C&D, and now its back with a different name anyway. I think a lot of decisions are made to try and appease the vocal few at any given time (or through constant requests) which will inevitably upset 'the others' who liked it the other way. And I don't think all recent decisions have been thought through as well as they might, but given the size of the community here, as well as the mentality/age/experience of quite a few members (some old, most new), giving the user base too much freedom is dangerous since they abuse or mishandle it anyway. Everywhere has to have a standard, and from what I feel and understand, that has nothing to do with 'Vicky in armour OR pink ponies' - but if either of those is executed really well, then maybe they deserve a shot at AOM!? I don't know why the Legume issue keeps coming up either, sure he made a stir, turned some heads and upset a few people with his statements,. I am neither impressed OR offended. If he or someone like him makes enough impression, and shows a dexterity, I am sure they are in with an equal chance of aquiring AOM. As for whether it will work or not is unknown. There will never be a fully satisfied user base here at any time, but at least, given the size and potential of this site, lets have somone represent it with an aptitude for their chosen categories rather than this weeks most 'popular' member or 'the only one of 6 members that uses that software that someone had heard of before' :)

Attached Link: http://foolspress.com/gallery/gallery.html

That's what AOM is REALLY about after all! ;D JK

LOL. I initially misread that as: Can we have more AOM nominees who are Poser artists that make pictures solely of naked women with improbably huge, gravity-defying breasts, that are too ungainly and too decorated to ever be used in combat?

How about: "Can we have more AOM nominees who are Poser artists with improbably huge, gravity defying breasts, that are are too ungainly and too decorated ever to be used in combat?" Regards- Lemurtek

Attached Link: http://foolspress.com/gallery/gallery.html

You're absolutely right, Lilith! After all, isn't that what torpedo bras were invented for?