No doubt about it - although are you sure the guy didn't make it who released it in free stuff?

Here's another set. Can you tell me which one came from where? And btw, the 2 meshes @ cafe where not created by the same person. but here they where the same person?

Which is which? ~EA

If they can show me they are the same person...no problem. And if they are the same person they should be thankful people are looking out for them. If there not...well... ~EA

I decided not to download it because it sure looks like the same one to me. I just didn't feel comfortable with it. Maybe the person who has it up for download should come in and explain. I know that some tutorials are out there to create models and maybe they both created the same model and that's why he says it's his. Marque

I have IM'd the person in free stuff and ask them to come here and explain this situation. Like I said...if it's theirs, I have no problem. Hell, I may even apologize, heh. ~EA

This is coming from John, whose Indoor Pool was deleted from Free Stuff, about a year after the fact. Of course it was deleted at the same time the Sunroom was deleted. Both were from the same item at 3D Cafe.

The meshes are in the exact state they are in if you d/l them from 3dcafe. There has been absolutely nothing done to them, except the addition of a readme file that claims copyrights to the files. The theft is in the simple fact that someone spent a good deal of time to create something and somebody comes along, downloads it, rezips it and uploads it somewhere else and puts their name on it. And didn't do DICK to earn ANY sort of respect or recognition for the creation of the models! If your a modeller and someone steals your shit, it pisses you off. ~EA

well I dont mind if someone GIVES away my freestuff, as long as they dont claim it as their own. But I think even if it's a free item we should get permission before posting it somewhere else(even if you give the original author credit.) Thats just common courtesy.

EA, this might have been continued on the thread in the copyright forum. and 3d cafe had the readme on the site rather than in each download, no reditribution allowed, without written consent. same as most modelers put on thier free and sale items. maybe the Renderosity staff saw this thread and pulled it. they did post that the free stuff will be gone through for exactly this type of concern, and requested that they be contacted about it. Jaqui

John, Stealing someone's reputation is worse than stealing a few dollars worth of sales. Think about it. You can always earn more money. I've gone to court, what... 3 times now? to protect my copyrights... AND I'm just as fierce about protecting the copyrights of those publishers with whom I've done business. It isn't just my contractual obligation, it is a matter of principle. If you take credit for another artist's work, you've just taken a piece of their soul. Think about that, too. Carolly

I too have contacted Olitoth as he had posted the Crest Shields from my Jousting Arean Set#1 "Noble's Viewing Stands" as his own in this batch. He apologized and said he had recieved them from 'a guy' who did not include the original readme's. This is probably so and Olitoth has agreed to remove my shields which he posted with a readme of "personal use only" where I clearly stated my props can be used for Commercial renderings and animations. Folks should be a bit more attentative (not that I haven't make mistakes too) to the readme.txt included in downloads. Mine states: ****Further, my meshes themself (the actual mesh files) may NOT be used for Any Form of Resale or 'Re-Packaged' Purposes in whole or in part where a price or barter (trade or exchange) is envolved. You may however use any Renderings (stills or animations) for personal, resale, or comercial purposes you desire so long as David's texture is replaced where Comercial Purposes are envolved (a small credit would be nice, but not required). You are however permitted to provide the meshes and templates to another artist should my origonals become non-available SO LONG AS YOU FOLLOW THESE THREE RULES: 1) This readme file is included. 2) NO MONEY OR TRADE/EXCHANGE IS INVOLVED! 3) You enjoy them yourself. (if you don't then just return them to the server you got them from!!) ============= The simple minding to item #1 may have prevented this whole misshap.... (by the way, I'm still working on Set #3 "Royal Viewing Stands", it's about half way there)

JHoagland, how is this theft? To play the angel's counterpoint to your devil's advocate section above: 1. The original item may have been free for limited purposes, such as non commercial rendering. Redistribution is often not a part of a freeware license agreement. If the owner says his mesh can be taken and redistributed for whatever you want, then ok. If not, its theft. 2. Reposting for free is not necessarily an element of theft, but might be a contract violation on the license agreement and does speak to the possible damages that incur from the breach. Having the new item available free can actually be more damaging to the creator should the creator ever choose to change his license agreement and start selling his work, or hope that a sponsor picks up on his skills, etc. 3. Whether or not the site that hosts charges, or even takes steps towards security for their contributors doesn't change the fact that it is theft/breach. Again, go to the license agreement. 4. Ok, now reforming the model comes under IP law and quite frankly, I don't know how much, if any, of the mesh must be changed to make it no longer the work of the original creator. That said, the images above look pretty close to me. Anyone know how IP applies to mesh? Might be a point to make here. 5. Giving credit might keep you from being sued for theft/breach, then again, its also an admission. That one cuts both ways. Again, the license agreement. Where is the harm? Interference with business relations, conversion, embezzlement, maybe even some personal harm for the cheater who is not skilled enough to build their own, or for an employer who might hire such a person unknowingly, or someone who downloads it and uses it only to be disqualified in a contest, etc, etc, etc. Oh, there's harm. I might be hard to see, but its there.

Very similar - I'm not convined that they are the same mesh, there are small differences, but I am convinced that one model was based on the likeness of the other - at least.

At first I thought there were differences in the wings as well. Then I realized that the wings on the top one don't include an addition but is just the other wing showing in the view. The claws at first also seemed different for the same reason.

I mean the second one.

I'm glad EA caught this. I must say however, I somehow feel a bit uncomfortable with the process. "I have IM'd the person in free stuff and ask them to come here and explain this situation." I think in cases of suspected piracy or copyright violation with posted items, the proper course is to bring the matter to the attention of the administrators. I don't want to draw lynch mob analogies, but I think there is a danger when people, even with the best intentions, call public meetings, and hail alleged offenders into the dock, demamding that they defend themselves. The statement "...if it's theirs, I have no problem. Hell, I may even apologize, heh," seems to indicate that even EA was not sure that a crime had been committed. An apology does not make up for a false public accusation. I am not saying that this person did not do exactly what they were accused of, I am only saying that this should be decided by the site admins, not in a forum. There are new people coming here every day. Some of them in their inexperience and eagerness to contribute mey feel that if something on the internet is free, they can use it as they see fit. True, they would be wrong and true they would be at fault for not reading restrictions (assuming they read English), but this still does not justify, in my opinion, being publicly branded a thief. If this is a community, then communities have established rules for dealing with transgressions. If you see a purse snatching, you call the police. You may even detain the perpetrator. You don't haul them into the nearest building, call in a group of passersby and hold court. EA, I'm really not criticizing your motives or your intentions, I hope you don't take it that way. I just think you could have done this differently.

Just a short note, this constitutes theft because it is against 3DCafe terms of use agreement.

One thing people should always know: Did they create the item in question. If they didn't, they have no reason to claim they did. There is absolutely no excuse. *** I am, however, pretty disillusioned with this whole "you stole my stuff" routine. Awhile ago there was this "new revolutionary character" featured on Turbosquid. The "copyright posse" had such a grand time with that one, bringing up all sorts of proof of theft, etc. In the end, some sort of secret agreement was reached, and that was supposed to be the end of the story. The key here was that many people who got involved figured they had the best interests of the companies or artists involved, yet they were told the details of the settlement/agreement were none of their business. This tells me two things: 1.) Don't take the law into your own hands. You're not a copyright expert. You're not a policeman or detective. You're not a lawyer. 2.) If you think a copyright violation has occurred, use the "official channels," and do it privately. Then be prepared to abide by the official decision.

At this point I don't care whether it's theft or not. You better learn some manners boy. When someone disgrees with you and you feel free to lose your temper and "shout" epitaphs at them, that's on you. If you had put the second graphic up first I might have been more ready to agree with you, but the fact that the two meshes in the first graphic were not posed the same makes it impossable to assertain whether they are the same mesh or not. I don't have the models,I do not know the history of the models. If they are the same I don't know who stole from who or if they both didn't steal from a third party. I have only a moderate interest in dragons, and rarely download dragon related stuff.(no offense, L.D.) There are differences, whether they are caused by the difference in poses or an actual difference is hard to tell. If you feel that they are the same you should take it to someone who has the legal authority to make a determination. I will not be part of a lynch mob. And trying to ridicule me over the internet because I do not aggree with you won't work either. I am not blind infact I notice detail most people miss. What is clear to me is that there is something wrong with accusing someone in public access, to whoever will listen. To tell you the truth when I read your post I was a little angry and went back to last october and read a sampling of your posts over the last few months. It seems that you are not generally a hothead as far as I could see, and your poserstuff on forum has advanced considerably over the last few months. Clearly this is an issue to be settled elsewhere, and niether my opinion nor that of the poser community will convict the thief. I can only hope that we are all mature enough to find a solution to these types of problems in the future which will not drag us down with the criminal. - sincerely bikermouse

As I said, I'm not denying that a theft, misrepresentation, infringement or whatever has ocurred, merely suggesting a process. If there is not an official policy here, there should be one. On a side note, anyone who has cruised 3D websites has seen the same models in many places. The point is, how can one be sure where they came from originally? Again, not denying that some of them may be posted illegally. But, I doubt that every model at 3D Cafe was first posted there. I also doubt thet 3D Cafe has done a search to find out if a model was posted somewhere else by someone other than the person who posted it to their site. Even if they did, they would still be in the position of taking one person's word that they created the model. They are depending on the honesty of the submitter, and, as in this case, on the vigilance of people like EA. I don't know what would constitute proof other than a formal copyright. I'd want to have more than an assertion in a readme file that the work was mine. In the case of the famous AutoCad fire nozzle, it's pretty clear and AutoDesk would have certainly had the lawyers to back it up. Stealing is stealing but in the case of material that have been floating around the internet for years, I think it could conceivably become problematic to determine just who's stealing what from who.

Again with the lynch mob mentality we go, eh? We have site admins for a reason people. At least email the person in doubt with a cc: to the site admin. Just think of it this way, what if it was you who was being tied up to the stake. Wouldnt you rather have this brought to your attention first rather than out in public?

Bikermouse: I really thought you were being a wise guy. Sorry if I offended you in any way. FYI: Not a single admin responded to the post in the store contact forum so I continued to post in the main poser forum. Could I have handled it differently? Perhaps...but, the end result is what I was after. The person removed the items from free stuff, so nobody else could possably suffer any ramafications for their actions. BTW: The person STILL has not responded to my IM asking for clairity in the matter. Also:"seems to indicate that even EA was not sure that a crime had been committed" Wrong here. I was backing off so I wouldn't upset the faint of heart here in the forums. But I do appriciate you sticking up for me. :) Question
Out of all of you: Which one of you doesn't want me to stick my neck out for you when someone steals your stuff? ...thought so. :) I got a little hot headed too quick. But see I've had my stuff pirated before and it sucks. ~EA

Hey, I responded to your Post! :) Okay, it was about 21 hrs later, but I normally check that forum. It's best to post in the copyright forum or (even faster response) email me at jenyk@renderosity.com. I follow-up on copyright issues within 24hrs, and that helps to ensure things get handled professionally without the need for lynch mods

LOL!! "but I normally check that forum" should have been but I don't normally check that forum. shesh! :)

E.A. its all good. "With patience and the will of God we shall prevail." - author unhnown

oops unhnown should read unknown.(I just washed my hands and I can't do a thing with 'em.)

Wouldnt it be better to 'email' an admin, rather than post in a forum. Just because they monitor it doesnt mean they read each and every message. How much time do you think these guys have anyway?

Never doubted your motive EA. My first response would have been to email an admin and not post in a forum for them to wander by and see it. But hopefully no harm has been done and the brigand is no doubt slinking out of town, appropriately chastised. Well, Pancho, our work is done here. Si Cisco, let's went. Adios Amigos.