That IS a typo, isn't it? I can't imagine software as advanced as this still relegated to ONE level of Undo. That's just a "hold-over" from the old manual, right? And could you elaborate on what can and can not be undone now, assuming (praying) that has changed. Like if I delete a figure by accident, can I undo this now? Also, I downloaded the hi-res version of the manual and have been noticing a decent amount of the "hyperlinks" are not working properly. Otherwise, great work!

The UNDO functionality is unchanged. What specific links? The manual seems to work flawlessly for me. Email me at docs@curiouslabs.com. Thanks!

There are too many to write down. I now noticed it's actually most of them above (I'm guessing now) page 100. The error I receive is "The specified file Poser 5 Reference ..." does not exist. On the UNDO ... do you have ANY insight as to why this was not changed? This is baffling to me. -Tim

I figured out the problem. I RENAMED the file to xxx-HIRES, from xxx-PRINT. Apparently SOME of the links in the PDF actually reference the document name? So, the lesson is, don't rename your PDF. OR, don't put links in a PDF that reference the file name. My knowledge on PDF creation is very limited, so maybe this is just something that can not be avoided when creating a PDF with links. But why do some links reference it and some do not? Oh well, problem solved. Thanks, Anthony! Sorry for the confusion. I'm sure someone else will do this too, so hopefully this part of the thread will serve a purpose at some point. :) -Tim

OK, I know what you're seeing now. Damn! I had that problem in my original PDF tests and learned it was caused by the PDF file being renamed after the links were set. This appears to be a quirk of the Framemaker to PDF conversion process (this does not happen when converting MS Word docs to PDF, go figure). In any event, I just downloaded the PDF from the download link and double-checked the name and file size. I saved the DL'd copy in a separate folder so there would be no confusion, then I opened it and tested. Everything is working fine on my end. And folks at the office are using it sans problems, as are (I think) many users. &(^%@! Sorry, timoteo - I'll get to the bottom of this. BTW, what version of Acrobat do you have? Does the low-res version work for you? Anthony Hernandez Curious Labs

That IS a typo, isn't it? I can't imagine software as advanced as this still relegated to ONE level of Undo. That's just a "hold-over" from the old manual, right? I'm assuming, timoteo, that you wrote this bit of sarcasm knowing full well that the manual is correct and not a "hold-over" from P4. Are you just trying to irritate CL or what? You just recently complained about mac users whining too much on this board about not getting P5 sooner. Have you stopped and taken a look at how many P5 whining threads you've personally started in the last few days??? Let me refresh your memory: P5 Manual: Does anyone else feel this way? Tell me there is QUICKTIME support in P5 ... please! Still no 3D acceleration !!!!!!!!!! How about mouse wheel support?? How about maximum render size? No TIF either??!? ORDER ISSUES ... Problems with order site ... Macs are INFERIOR for video editing as well ... Wouldn't hold your breath for a Mac version ... Sooooo ..... what about Poser 5 ?? Oooh, here's another one: How about PLOP Anthony: Since you're still up ...RENDERING?? DOH!!! Sorry, the mac users have nothing on you. All of them together have not whined nearly as hard as you alone. All those threads in bold above... you started threads of your own just to b*tch about P5, a product you don't even have yet. It's people like you that will make CL think twice about releasing a manual early again--CL did you a favor, and in turn you're doing everyone else here a disservice. -Adam

what difference does the amount of undos make? I never bother to use it anyway, if I do something wrong I delete & start again, that might be the long way but you learn better by making mistakes & the undo is just there to make people lazy. Rob

Anthony: Low-res version seemed to work fine. I have Acro 4.0 on some machines, and 5.0 on others. I'll test it on both and let you know tomorrow. Thanks. -Tim

Terdanusnerd ...

Thanks for proving me right about the Mac-Nazi's (like you) who actually do a search for my name just so they can slam me in a totally unrelated post. Nice.

But more importantly (and what's both sad and hilarious) ... half the topics you listed -- if you had bothered to read them instead of just doing a message search for my name and ASSUMING (made one of you, but not me) -- they were deragatory. For example, the very first one on your list is not even about any requests, let alone gripes/etc.

A lot of them were legitimate questions and concerns a lot of users have raised in the past. And the ones that were on the "bitchy" side, were quite civilized. UNLIKE the many I've seen directed at CL personal by the Mac-Nazi's over an issue CL has no control over for the most part.

Way to draw totally false parallels as well ... as usual. The fact that a single software developer has not provided some long sought-after features for one piece of software (Poser) in no way is the same as an entire platform consistently either not having software available period, or releases coming much later than another platform. Mine is a feature-request type issue which benefits both platforms.

Your issue (and your ilk) is that youre pissed because there is currently no Poser 5 software ALL YOUR BITCHING AND MOANING WILL NOT CHANGE THIS FACT, BECAUSE, AS I STATED BEFORE, APPLE IS BEING A PAIN IN THE ASS AND CL WOULD LIKE TO ACTUALLY MAKE SOME MONEY FIRST, IM SURE.

The difference is, my "bitching and moaning" has a decent chance of making some type of change, yours has absolutely NO CHANCE of making a change ZERO.

Terdanusnerd: PS> Actually, there have been a few things discovered in the manual that were not quite correct. Ask Anthony yourself. My original question in this thread was not intended to be viewed as sarcasm. Additionally, I thought I had read in a post a long time ago that the levels of undo were going to be increased. This is a small enough of an item (its not a major feature, but a submenu usability feature) that I honestly thought it could have been overlooked. There are a lot of things re-incorporated from the P4 manual. Right Nos?

Just wondering, why is there still only one level of undo ? Is there a technical reason behind it?

All modern 3D software seems to have left the "one level of undo" behind them, buried in the past. Having a multiple undo is a quick and easy way to revert to your last 2 or 3 changes, without having to reset dials or delete figures. Imagine Photoshop, or Lightwave, or any other Modern graphics software having the multiple undo taken away. It just puzzles me thats all. I will still upgrade to Poser 5, but this was one feature I was hoping would have been changed. Ok, moan over.

"what difference does the amount of undos make?"

Not to be flippant or rude, but I don't even know how to begin to answer that statement. It's almost like asking, "Why bother having a clipboard to cut and paste." Or a real world example, "Why have an extra key to the house? If I get locked out I'll just bash in a window or pay $150 for a locksmith."

"if I do something wrong I delete & start again"

You have a LOT more time on your hands than I do. ;-)

Another thing to think about is, why does every major application (not just 3D apps, but like pretty much every piece of (applicable) software written) have multiple levels of UNDO. It's a pretty darn important feature, and apparently one that a majority of people want/need to have. A lot of software programs allow for user-selectable levels of undo.

With Poser, heck, I'd be happy with 2 or 3 at this point. But since this is the case, what is really important then is ... has anything changed in regard to WHAT can be undone. Before it was relatively limited.

-Tim

Capt: Well put ... great minds think alike. I was obviously wondering the same thing. I understand, thanks to Coop, why 3D acceleration was not implemented now. Doesn't mean I like it, but I can understand it at least. Explanations help the troubled soul.

ah it's all about saving time then? did you read the section about revert? save after every major change to your scene then you can go back to that if you "cock it all up". No I doubt if I do have a LOT more time than you but I'd rather spend it using poser or helping newbies in the forum than complaining about things that won't be changed between now & a couple of weeks when poser5 arrives in my hands. Rob

"what difference does the amount of undos make? I never bother to use it anyway, if I do something wrong I delete & start again, that might be the long way but you learn better by making mistakes & the undo is just there to make people lazy. Rob" Oh my God, haven't you ever clicked the mouse button at the wrong time, and said "Oh Darn?!" If you've made such a mistake after several hours of work, you might feel differently. Many other applications have several levels of undo. Undo is a lifesaver. Other programs have had multiple levels of undo for years, if not decades. This is a reasonable expectation.

Ah, another voice of reason. Thanks Crision!

"No I doubt if I do have a LOT more time than you but I'd rather spend it using poser or helping newbies in the forum than complaining about things that won't be changed between now & a couple of weeks when poser5 arrives in my hands.

Don't forget blasting whining and "Windows-slamming" Mac users as well. ;-) I do my fair of Posing AND helping, thank you. I've been averaging 4 hours of sleep a night and geting used to it (I'm a 9+ person), so I've got a little extra time I suppose. And while revert is nice (also a standard feature on every app known to man), it's just not the same.

And I don't get the whole, "Ooooo ... let's not critque CL and let them know what we really want." It's not like I'm screaming at them: "You F!%&*ING bastards ... fix this now or I'm returning my software, starting a smear campaign, and posting renders of the CL staff doing lewd things. Oh, and go to hell!" SHEEEESH! (You're mistaking me for some of the Mac people who are blaming them for a delayed release that is almost entirely the fault of Apple.)

If you didn't ask questions or let a company know what it is you'd really like to see, almost nothing would change. They count on the feedback of their customers. Heck, I'm one of the best friends CL every had ... I constantly recommend the software to the many professionals I meet. I'm proud to tell clients I use it to make our holograms. I give CL my money with every release. What more could they want? ;-)

2^10 cents deposited.

I wasn't trying to say you don't help out timoteo1 I know you do & probably more than I do, it's possible that the Poser5 Propack will have unlimited undo when it arrives. We'll just have to wait & see again. Rob

Uii, that's disapointing - just one UNDO level :-( I've learned the hard way too and now I usually save a new work immediately as Pz3 and save often in between. Nothing in compare to a multiple UNDO feature but better as nothing.

"I wasn't trying to say you don't help out timoteo1 I know you do & probably more than I do" I don't know about that, Rob, but thanks anyway. There is hope for some of these things with Python scripts. (Seems silly to have to open a Python script to do an undo.) Tony, was there a plan at one time to increase the number of undo's? Also, could you let us know what the undo will and will not do, if you know. Thanks!

I wasn`t going to add any more to this thread, but the more I think about it, the more stupid only having one undo now seems.

It appears to me, that Poser 5 is now aiming for the pro market, as well as the amatuer side, especially with the new render engine and the other new features. Poser 5 is certaintly looking more attractive to animators and arists who work in small production companies. When this product gets reviewed by magazines such as 3D World, I would bet the "one undo" feature will be listed in thier "cons" list. In modern 3D software having multiple undos is a essential "must have" feature, not a luxury. If you are working on a job with a deadline, and the only way to recover your mistakes is to revert to a version you saved 20 mins ago, or to mess with dials and memory buttons, then I cannot inderstand what CLs were thinking of.

Maybe they have left the one undo "feature" in for nostalgia reasons, reminding us all who started using Poser with Version 2, what it used to be like.

OK, so who brought popcorn? I have beer, but only one stool :)

Undo's are nice but remember that each saved "undo" takes up space either on the scratch disk or in memory. I've noticed in this forum that a lot of users don't have high-end systems, and this might create a problem for them. I'm a little concerned even with my main system that I may have some problems with the hair and clothing options, just going to have to wait and see. Basically if I'm going to make a drastic change to something I save a pose dot and go on, so you do....in a way....have multiple "undo's". Marque

Isn't this debate a moot point? What's the alternative? Have CL postpone the release so they can code multiple undo capability? Nooooooo! Let's move on and save this for the P6 wishlist.

I was going to mention that pose dot, but there it is :) However, UNDO and multiple undo is a MUCH needed item....As far as low end systems, if the UNDO function is implemented correctly, there will be a menu item or preference selection to select the amount of undo levels you want...that way, low end system users can keep it at 1 or whatever works best for them, and the folks with 2gigs of ram and 50gig virtual mem can have 100 undos---very simple. I've cursed more than once at not being able to undo a move---and also the fact that in many instance the undo function is grayed out anyway in P4.

forgot to say---maybe CL can put in this feature with the first patch---or at least with the next upgrade.

I do stills, so I just use the animation storyboard features in place of "undo". Oh, and timoteo - you really must learn to do two things: 1) Don't attack members personally - calling them names not only shows that you've lost a debate before it began, but it can get you banned as well. 2) Perhaps instead of shouting to the high heavens in here for attention on a given issue, you could instead write some e-mails to Curious Labs? Do NOT say that they haven't answered, either. I asked CL last year about a possible Linux version of Poser, and Steve Cooper himself wrote back with a full explanation as to what and why. It led to a fascinating discussion of getting Poser to work under wine, in which I managed to pull a single render off that way in Linux. (and as soon as I can get my mitts on the Codeweavers' plugin, Poser 4 is getting loaded on my RH partition again :) ) Incidentally, I notice that you have no artwork up here... a professional such as yourself should certainly have examples somewhere - could you point me to some examples of your work, perhaps? I mean, with all the things you've been demanding lately, I'm seriously curious to see what exactly you need all of these functions for. /P

Wow, must bookmark.

Penguin: COMPLETELTY wrong on both counts.

"calling them names not only shows that you've lost a debate before it began"

What are you talking about?? You have it backwards. I have written a multitude of posts as of late, and I don't recall ever "calling someone a name", but of course the Mac-Nazis had, as always, no problem personally attacking me. I haven't lost any arguments because there was nothing to lose ... I was talking in pure facts, not opinion. (I'll assume you're talking about the Mac-Nazi's "whining threads"?)

"Perhaps instead of shouting to the high heavens in here for attention on a given issue..."

I don't remember shouting to the heavens. Again, I thought my comments to CL were very civilized (unlike the Mac-Nazis), and also thought the community would benefit more from a thread than a private email no one else sees. I know I like to read what other people think about the software, bugs/missing features they've discovered.

Oh, and I have called CL on numerous occasions after they took over P4 with suggestions and bug reports. But I probably posted about those too for the OBVIOUS mutual benefit sharing ideas and thoughts provide. (Which people like you try to take away for God knows what reason other than to start an argument.)

Why have Poser message boards in the first place for pete's sake? So we can simply sing the praises of the new release. Everyone who reads my other posts over the years knows I'm sooooo into Poser, and extremely excited about the new release. I was one of the first people to pre-order it. See #16 above, 2nd paragraph for further explanation.

Think before you type next time and go bark up another tree. -Tim (1 of the 12: co-founder)

One level of undo is an improvement over P4, which has about half a level of undo. Delete something - can't undo. Change something and move the camera - can't undo.

"Incidentally, I notice that you have no artwork up here... a professional such as yourself should certainly have examples somewhere ..."

Spoken like a true ignorant, still artist. (Thanks for the added sarcasm to make your self-righteous and sharp-toothed comment more laughable.)

I use Poser almost exclusively for animation. As any serious animator here (I think there are around 12 of us altogether) will tell you, we ...

• A) Don't get to crank out 10's or hundreds of complete compositions like still artists do.
• B) There are no galleries here for animators.
• C) Bandwidth issues prevent many of us for showcasing our animations, and is the reason for "B" above.
• D) Rarely is there even contest for animation. When there is a contest they rarely give enough time for decent animations, utilizing a still contest's time factor.

For me personally, I HAVE posted links to animations here on R'Osity (do your homework), including one recently I did to create a large scale hologram. Do a search for HOLOGRAM ... you can't miss it. A LOT of the work I do using Poser is for the creation of holograms or Motion-Pix (lenticulars), and would not be of particular interest to people, even IF I could afford the bandwidth.

I also am the kind of artist who doesn't like to show even a portion of his work until it was complete, unless I feel I need help with something. (I'm the same way with the novels and scripts I write.) For animators, that could be months, years, etc. Ask Wolf, or any of the other 12.

Personally, I've been working on a mini-movie on a grand scale (voice talent, fully developed script, etc.) for over a two-years now in my spare (that's a laugh) time, and have not shown a single clip. Why? It's not a complete work (I'll spend a good 3-6 months on the sound composition and music alone) and I want people to be blown away when they see it, not digesting it in little baby-steps.

Can you imagine posting you're half-done stills in the gallery?? Give me a break please.

-Tim

Back to the original thread now (swooo!) ... I agree, there's no point in complaining about the levels (or lack thereof) of UNDO at this point. My original post was to find out if this was indeed true. However, the second part of my post (and a question others are asking) is, Is the UNDO better implemented now? What can and can not the UNDO feature do now? Obviously, we'll find out when we get it of course, but you can't blame people for being curious. (Heck that's half the name of the company.)

You win, you're a CG god and we're all peons in your midst. None could ever hope to get to your level of animated godhood... Feel free to bray at CL all you want - I wouldn't be suprised if your e-mail hasn't been auto-shunted to /dev/null by now if this is how you answer points of debate. Just remember that I told you so, right after the staff jerks your account for personal attacks. There's already been a complaint about you lodged by someone else to the mods, and I actually stood up for you like some sort of charitable idiot. Be damned if'n I make that mistake again. /P

I never said I was a CG god, there are tons of people better at animation and CG than I. I was just pointing out your total ignorance about the way animators operate. Sorry you can't come to terms with it. And talk about personal attacks ... you're a laugh riot. Your the one that came onto this thread (apparently based on another thread) and starting baselessly attacking me. All three of your "points" are mute/absurd. Like I said, do your homework. -Tim

Holy Yikes...how about an UNDO on where this thread is going. :)

For the record, I've seen people get banned for less - I just tried to be nice but firm about it, and arroganrt flames are all I got in return. Dave, you've nothing to worry about from me any further... I'll speak no more to this timoteo1 character - let him go to his fate as he wishes. There are far too many things to do in a day than to continue warning someone who doesn't want to hear the warning... Peace, /P

Holy Yikes...how about an UNDO on where this thread is going. :)< I'm with you on that one Dave-So This fourm needs a 'twit' filter that some BBS systems have the filter looks for by lines from any offenders that have had their name entered into it and makes them invisable by anyone who has the twit's name entered. The filtered twit can spew all he wants to and only the ones that haven't filtered him (yet) will see his rants.

Dudes! I suggest Renderosity have a Quake Deathmatch to settle this argument!

P.S.(my 2 cents): I agree with Timoteo1...one level of undo's...bites. Man, even under the Microsoft Empire, Word has more undo's.

I'm for the deathmatch! Although I'd like to play Unreal Tournament 3, which is coming out for Windows any day now. Can't wait! Poser 5 and Unreal 3 in one month ... arrghh, so little time, so much to do.

Great idea! So hopefully, in this case, it would have filtered out terminusnord and Penguin's messages, right? After all, they were the ones that were waaaay of topic. I just responded to their absurd comments after they slammed me. What did they write about that was on the topic? Nothing.

"I just tried to be nice but firm about it, and arroganrt flames are all I got in return."

Penguin is the biggest Troll (no, I'm not calling him a nasty name, it's a term used in the TOS ... as in trolling) pretending not to be Troll I have ever seen. He writes one line that is related to the thread, then proceeds to write a few paragraphs blasting me about something I didn't even do. What kind of a backwards world do you live in?

ANYWAY ... we probably have no chance of Anthony responding to this thread now thanks to those two, and admitedly, me not taking their abuse and defending myself from their mistruths. I'll have to start a new one I imagine. Please don't bother to post if you just want to attack me based on other threads that got you steamed.

Yeah, I wish we had a twit filter as well, or could UNDO the two original posts that had nothing to do with the topic.

And with that, I pronounce this thread (of the thread) as dead ... at least for me.

I must add ... terdinusnerd turned out to be quite civilized and level-headed in another thread. I let him know I truly appreciated that in the other thread, and was sorry I blasted him so harshly when mounting my "defense." I guess he just lost his head (as we ALL do from time-to-time) on this one, as he was quite the gentleman in the other thread.

Penguinisto is one of the most generous people I know. Thanks to "Pengy," many people are able to share their free stuff with the Poser community. He has also given us some great freebies. It's one thing to disagree with someone, but there is no need to call Pengy a troll. He deserves better than that.

"What's the alternative? Have CL postpone the release so they can code multiple undo capability? " That has a lot going for it, actually....

You know, I'm sure that's true about Penguinisto most of the time, but with his condescending tone, sarcasm, and off-topic post, etc. he was OBVIOUSLY trolling in this thread. I've been on R'Osity a long time and I've seen his post and artwork, and know he's all around nice guy.

timoteo1, So you have been around a long time. Then why don't I recognize your name? And why don't you have a gallery?! Penguinisto, a Troll?! Hardly. You, on the other hand...

I don't know, WHY don't you recognize my name? I don't recognize your name either, so what. I'm not a prolific poster like some, I suppose. But I help out when I can, ask questions when I need to, try to remove the blight of Mac-Nazi's when I can, etc.

"And why don't you have a gallery?!"

Well, if you bothered to read the thread you would understand. (or maybe you wouldn't, since you don't seem to understand what Trolling is.) SEE #30 above ... but to put it plainly ... I AM AN ANIMATOR. Besides, I didn't realize having a gallery was a requirement of being a long-time or involved member.

So in your world, even the still artists who do not want to show their work are not "real members" ... wow, what a philosphy. Good luck, I'm done with this thread. -Tim (1 of 12: co-founder)

OK, well other people have already given me a clue as to who you really are....

Ok, knock if off! Before everyone gets a time out.

BTW, that post was not aimed at one person, but all involved.