I just got Poser5 and it looks really cool.Too bad the manual is just as bad as the Poser4 was.It is laid out just as sloppily as Poser4 manual is.I am SO confused.BUT The program DOES look amazing.I will buy Poser5 Demystified if it EVER comes out.Why did they put an AD for it with my Poser5 if it is NOT ready yet?Come on guys,stop teasing us,LOL.

I emailed 3-Axis and asked them about the training. They told me "Poser 5 Demystified" would be out around the first of October.

I D/L'd the manual when it first came on line (maybe a month ago), and my impression was that it was very much an improvement on the P4 manual, as least so far as the new functionality was concerned. I confess I haven't really browsed the sections on existing P4 functionality, or tried to look at it as a newbie. I would be very suspicious of the value of any book that is published within a month of the software release, with proofing and printing times, that would probably give the author about a week to learn the ropes. By the time you get it you are likely to have had four times the experience of P5 than the writer. In the current case, even beta testers don't seem to have had much of a head start. Bill

While I respect your opinion, I have to say I find the P5 Manual to be an incredible improvement over the one that came with P4. If it doesn't give enough attention to parts of P5 that you're having trouble with, I'd tend to suspect it's due to the densely sophisticated nature of the program. Have you tried actually reading the Manual through? Quite possibly you did, but most artistic users tend to just skim or browse the docs for a program before diving in. I've only gone thru a couple of sections in any depth myself (as I'm moving this month), but what I've read has been very readable and informative. I'm actually eager to find the time to read it more thoroughly. Just my 2 cents worth: As always, opposing opinions expected & encouraged... Cheers!

I skimmed,LOL.I am honest!Like I said the Poser5 PROGRAM looks AMAZING,I LOVE IT!.I just wish Manuals in general were made a bit simpler for us Artistic yet technically "retarded" people,LOL!My Proof is Poser5 Demystified a Program flyer that was enclosed with the Poser5 Update I bought from Curious Labs.Including a 2 hours Lesson plan to BUY from a third party proves what I am saying ;o).Either way,It looks like the CuriousLabs people did a GREAT Job with the New Poser5.I am Glad I bought it and I am Sure I will love it. :o)

LOL, well have a great day....Sharen

Please don't get me wrong, I am not whining! I'm just agreeing with Artist's post. The book does seem to be a re-write. Pretty much the same convoluted style. Look on this page, go back to that page, see the ... etc. I got carpal just turning the pages. Very confusing and hard to follow. Then there are the miss-worded sentences, references to illustrations that aren't there, and other such oddities. Wait, let me re-read this....hmm, I guess I am whining.

The following is my PERSONAL opinion, which does not reflect the opinion of my employer and shall not be construed as a statement made by my employer. "The manual sucks!" "Have you read it?" "Um- no." In my opinion, this is about the best summary of much of the ranting that's been going on.

Could that be because you wrote it? It is oftentimes easier to read your own writing than someone else's; since you know internally what you meant while supplying the words. It may be better to increase the number of people working on the documentation and, perhaps, even "beta test" the manual by using a few potential customers from varying degrees of proficiency in order to produce more meaningful documentation. Just a suggestion.

I thought the manual is excellent and a big improvement over any other Poser manual I have. Ron

Manuals are always less than what we want. Most modern software has too many options and methods to ever fit into a book. Likewise, no matter how intuitive the programmers and tech writers are, the general user base will stretch any software to the limits in the least possible time (well beyound anything the makers of the software ever thought of). They did the best they could, considering how we were all clamouring for P5 to be released as soon possible (every time I find a bug, I remind myself that I'd rather have a buggy program that mostly works in September, than a perfect one in January). The great thing about Poserland is the tutorials the best of us create for the others. The manual is a good starting place for a nubie, but the tutorials are what really save out butts. When I first got Poser 2, I played with it for a while, and forgot about it. I saw the update to P4, and sprung for it on a whim (when money was easy - so long ago). This time I did a web search for Poser, and up comes the 'sity. Boy, was that a mistake! Now several thousand dollars later, I'm a junkie. I read the forums twice a day, check 4 or 5 times for new models and textures, render, rework, and post.... I read every new tutorial, and try whatever interests me. I expect that within a few weeks, there'll be a dozen great tutorials on hair, face, materials, and cloth. Tons of freebies that are easy to use, with directions, and lots of new products for us to waste our children's college funds on. Ah well, its better than coke or video poker... not as good as sex, but hey, I'll be 46 tomorrow...

Anthony, I have read it. It's a big step up from the P4 manual, but it still leaves huge gaps. I've ben referencing the Materials section today, so I'll harp on that. It gives a light explanation of what the different slots and nodes do, but doesn't explain in many cases WHY you'd use them. It does not discuss using specularity maps or using maps to mask reflectivity, even though those are concepts new to Poser. For each alternate specularity option, it says, "defines a model for calculating highlights," without bothering to tell us in what ay they are different. Also, there are things like, "The Diffuse_Color attribute specifies the diffuse color," which is the sort of thing one often finds in computer-related items. I just love when I'm installing something and I get a list of options. To find out more about each option you can click on it and text will appear in a box below. One option will be "Widget Master Deluxe" and when you click on it the help text will be "Install Widget Master Deluxe." It's just not helpful. :) There should have been a walk-through tutorial for each room. I'm looking more forward to your fiction book. :) Phoenix

Looking forward to tutorials from any writers that consider themselves better ;-). I like really short explanations myself, with links to the longer ones. A tutorial on the artistic use and meaning of the new materials would be great, with some renders maybe?

I didn't say, and hope I didn't sound like I meant, that Anthony's not a good writer. :) Am I better? Maybe, maybe not. His work of fiction is being published and mine are not, which might be a clue. ;) Deadlines, lack of really detailed info to start out with, and deadlines I think kept us from getting a manual that I would consider really good rather than an adequate "getting started" book. I don't criticize his skill, but would like more detail. I am tripping all over myself to say this because I sincerely do not want to offend Anthony. I wish I could start cranking out those tutorials on the materials, but I'm only beginning to get familiar with it and many things are named differently or render differently that what I'm used to. Also I'm a crappy artist and not the most ceative user of any art tool. But after I reinstall P5 (plagued wih crashes in the simplest scenes, so maybe it's my fault) I will try a few basic tutorials. I hope it's clear I'm not trying to belittle Anthony's work. I'm offering what I hope is constructive criticism, rather than just saying the manual is great or the manual is shit. I'm a better editor than I am either a writer or artist. Phoenix (realizing it's often better to say nothing, but lacking the ability)

The manual is JUST FINE thank you. Im applying the fer to Poser 4, I havent even got Poser 5 yet and theres stuff in it i wish Id sorted two years ago. Theres things in it I wish Id tried two WEEKS ago. I hate manuals. Everyone has a manual story, I have several, my SLR came with 2 manuals, basic and advanced. The basic stuff was in the advanced manual ad so on, invariably one would pick up the wrong one. Neither told me how to operate the camera. I had to get out the sales brochure and the magazine article on it to find the aperture and shutter speed controls. end of rant No, not end of rant. I bought a video camera with a new feature where you link it to a VCR to edit (the bad old analog days) the cameras manual had a whole chapter on this new feature. REFER TO THE VCRs MANUAL. It was a year an a hernia before I had the corresponding VCR. Its manual said REFER TO THE MANUAL FOR THE CAMERA.

xvcoffee, The manual for P4 is full of errors. It will tell you step by step how to do something, and when you try to follow the steps you'll find they are impossible. That manual (don't know who wrote or editted it) is a long-running joke. The P5 manual is a great improvement. But if you liked it... ;) Phoenix

LOL Thanks for the support. I know I can't please anyone, though I still keep trying. My only point is that I've seen a lot of emotion and energy spent recently that I think could have been avoided by research and asking questions. If you have a problem, then there are two explanations: 1) You don't know what you're doing. In this case, RTFM! 2) You DO know and whatever it is isn't working as advertised. This is a bug and if we at Curious labs know about it, chances are we'll try and fix it. Am I saying Poser 5, the manual, or Curious Labs are perfect? Not at all. We're all just doing the best we can. :-) Anthony

phoenixamon it's the p5 manual I am reading to use P4

Ah, I get it. :) Doh! Phoenix

Hey speaking of fixing bugs, is there a list of known bugs somewhere or a way to report besides emailing technical support at CL? This place is so big now I can never find anything...

I second that... please tell us the right way to go about reporting bugs. :) I didn' know who to write to even. Anthony, hope I wasn't rude in your perception. Around here I see a lot of glorious praise and a lot of furious condemnation on a lot of products (and art as well), and neither is exactly useful feedback. Phoenix

Nosfiratu I am Reading the manual,and did read it.I am HONEST and I said I am skimming.Skimming does NOT mean one is NOT reading the material.I READ each chapter as I went along and skimmed over items I am not using as much.So please don't disrespect me.I never said anything sucked.If you "READ" all of my posts on Renderosity about Poser5,you will see they are VERY supportive of it and Curious Labs.Please watch what you say and how you say it.Thank you.

sorry A3D - emotions running high here as well...

I would have to wholeheartedly agree with Phoenix's #12 post above. I think the manual, on the whole, is well written ... it's just on the light side.

I have been concentrating (as you know Tony) on the FACE ROOM. The entire chapter is only ten pages, and there are a decent number of pictures and white space. I've mentioned some of the items that need more detailed information in another post, and there are more.

The thing is, Tony is only one guy, and P5 is introducing a LOT of new stuff. On top of that, there was enoromous time pressure, although self inflicted ... I think most of us would wait for a delayed release. I think for WHAT is there, he did a great job. But again, technical-writing merits aside, its on the thin side for such a feature-rich program.

But hey, it wouldn't be the first manual to be this way ... thus, the huge software secondary-manual book market.

-Tim