Greetings Poser Community. Is Poser dead? Is the community dying? These questions have been asked often under many circumstances. I, myself, have asked the same questions in the past. Yet, like never before, I see a great lack in the community, the vendors, DAZ, Curious Labs and so on. The chief culprit, I believe, is Poser 5. It's anticipation caused a noticble deterioration in quality releases from DAZ and Renderosity. What would be compatible? Better to hold off on projects and see... Then Poser 5 is released against a backdrop of controversy and then, finally...total frustration with the software. If you do manage to get the program to work, are the new features all that useful? Poser 5 is not the only problem though. Is anyone else unimpressed with the latest offerings from DAZ? It seems that DAZ has shifted to an all-dungeons-and-dragons-all-of-the-time policy. I suppose that's a popular genre to work in, but enough is enough. The same basic problems exist here in the store but in addition, the issue of quality also arises far too often. "Ultra-Realistic" textures are not ultra-realistic. Character Packs offer one of two basic body shapes and some tweaking of the Y scale. New Hair models look a lot like old hair models from the same vendor. I could go on and on. The forums are filled with backlash against Curious Labs and Poser 5. I can see why they are the scapegoat, they are probably most responsible for the disillusionment in the community right now. Yet, I feel the real disillusionment lies within the community itself, and the use of Poser. Poser 5, had it of worked, may not have been enough to keep interest going. It seems to me the community is tapped of creativity. Shinier renders have always been possible to those who wanted it via other programs. One may get the feeling that there's really nowhere else to go with the program, new features or otherwise. There will always be artists to fill the galleries, and thus there will always be a community here, but overall the impression I get is that as a body of people, we are here beating a dead horse. Is there hope for the future? Maybe. I order to really have the kind of features we need to bring Poser to the next level, what we really need is the next milestone in Personal Computing to unfold. We need dual processors to be the standard. We need video cards that raytrace on the fly. We need computer resource sharing/networking over the internet. Just a few of the things I can think of to take it all to the REAL next level. Only when some of these types of ideas take root can we expect the next generation of Human Modelling software to exist. Until then, it's all pretty much Poser 4 regardless of Poser 5 and it's "new features". And a great many of us have run out of life with Poser as a result. The above is just my opinion, and though I say "We" and "Us" and "The Community" I do so only on the basis of my subjective, personal experience of said collectives. Do with it what you will. -WTB

"Is Poser dead?" Nope, not by a long shot. The market is there, however, some serious issues still need to be ironed out. "Is the community dying?" Nope, quite the contrary. I think that the community is, in fact, growing. Do we always agree? Nope. Do we always have valid points? Nope. Are we all human? Yep. (Least I hope so.) I see a huge potential in this community, as in all communities, to bring not only the subject matter "to the next level", but the world as a whole. Call me an optimist in favor of human nature, but since we can communicate directly with people of all (Internet-connected) nations now, I think there is a grand potential for things far greater than working out the kinks in a software program. "The chief culprit, I believe, is Poser 5." Given that this forum is a Poser community, I would say that Poser does have an impact, either way. :o) "Is anyone else unimpressed with the latest offerings from DAZ?" This could be because DAZ has publicly stated their intentions not to upgrade to P5, until some concerns are worked out. It is possible that they found a profitable market in fantasy and D&D type products; after all, any company's prime objective is to be profitable so they can continue to do business. "The forums are filled with backlash against Curious Labs and Poser 5." This is simple human nature. More people are prone to point out the adverse aspects of something than those who point out the benefits. (One logical extension is Mass Media. More often than not, the reports of negativity far outweigh the positivity that exists in the world.) However, it is up to the individuals as to what they do with that information. "It seems to me the community is tapped of creativity." I tend to disagree. There are many creative Poser and cross-software users that are producing quality freebies and products. Just look at some of the "creative" workarounds people have come up with as an example. Perhaps the complications with P5 have provided some obstacles that stifle further creativity but that shall pass. "One may get the feeling that there's really nowhere else to go with the program, new features or otherwise." Heh.. This is a dangerous presumption. There are always more features, etc, that could be added to enhance software. The issue generally lies in the demand plus the planning and implementation of them. "I order to really have the kind of features we need to bring Poser to the next level, what we really need is the next milestone in Personal Computing to unfold." Not necessarily true. The system specs and other technologies you mention would be of additional benefit, but the technology that exists now is more than adequate for Poser to fulfill its functions, IMHO.

William_the_Bloody > Is Poser dead?

Well, there are still resources beside Poser. Since some time I know that Poser is not the software to end all other software. You can't get excellent results from only one program, only in conjunction with other programs lies the possibility to create something outstanding.

Here are some things you can't do with Poser:

• make sketches
• model something
• texture it
• do postwork
• write a story (image series, animation)
• storyboard a animation
• create some sound effects/music for this animation

So even if you think that Poser doesn't develop, you can do new things every day.

William_the_Bloody > Is anyone else unimpressed with the latest offerings from DAZ?

This bugs me to no end. You see some shortcomings in the marketplace but all you can do is lamenting? You can't count on others to see the world as you do. Grap a free, cheap or expensive 3d modelling program and recreate your own imagination. Contrary to popular belief this is not difficult, the only thing that holds you back is yourself.

I think we are witnessing a mass ascension of our communities current greatest into a new higher 3D reality. A perfect world modeled and rendered in high end 3D programs. Hehehe. :)

Sorry I couldn't help myself. ;)

I hope what you've observed is just a temporary lull as people embark on a new learning curve with Posers latest incarnation. Of course I've also noticed the effect of world events and such on people I know. I think it tends to slow everyone down a bit too.

Poser users do squabble with each other, just like in the real world...'cause that's where we live..most of the time ;)
I think that perhaps people need to get away from the latest and bestest ever concept....Poser 5 is a tool like any other tool, it's not gonna make anyone talented anymore than Poser 4 did. I would like to see less about the version of the program used and more about the inspiration used but that's partially because I'm relatively poor, can't afford Poser 5 at the moment :) and am dying to get my hands on the hair salon and wind effects.
All things being equal the big R and the Poser Union are in a healthy condition, we have many different points of view, many generous people donating their talents and time, more links than you can shake a stick at and examples of some of the best artwork in the known universe and other places. There's plenty of free stuff for those who want it, a bewildering array of stuff in the Marketplace and lively forums. Good grief, if I wasn't a member I'd join today!
Mon

Dead?...No..in a transition period?...yes...We're all learning the new features of P5...simple as that. Daz (IMO) provide a good variation most of the time but as already mentioned, they will produce what sells...if that is fantasy at the moment then they will fill that demand...next month it may be sci-fi and so on...no company or artist/broker will constantly produce work for a minority,it's simply not good business sense, not to mention soul destroying if you spend a month on something only to sell 10 copys. As for the limitations of Poser in general then yes Poser alone has it's limits but most of us use at least one other app to produce art or models...personally I have used up to 4 or 5 in the past on one image and modelling (depending on your methods) you can also use 3 or more apps to get to the finished product. So if you're finding you've taken Poser as far as you can then maybe it's time to look at something to extend it but I don't believe Poser is dead...not by a long shot...in 6 months time we'll all have forgotten the early P5 issues etc. and there will be some amazing images & new products out there I'm sure.

...It seems that DAZ has shifted to an all-dungeons-and-dragons-all-of-the-time policy. I'm not certain that DAZ drives the market in this sense. Instead, I think they are simply responding to what the market appears to desire. At one time DAZ offered quite a few animal models. Unfortunately, sales were insufficient to make this a focus. It's really quite simple- outrageous Vicki clothing and fantasy characters sell. Take a look at the bulk of Renderosity's or DNA's inventory and you will see this effect is not limited to DAZ. ...I suppose that's a popular genre to work in, but enough is enough. Apparently it isn't. I'm not sure but you seem to think that Poser is about art. Certainly it can be but I sense that for most of us it is pure recreation. We put up with the daily grind of dull 9 to 5 work days. Most of us probably have at least moderately interesting lives but they are rarely the stuff of great adventure novels. Poser allows us to express individual creativity without dedicating a major portion of our time to learning purely mechanical artistic dexterity. More importantly gorgeous half naked women, manly hunks of muscle and fantasy creatures are not a part of our normal days. Is it any wonder that we retreat to such things in our imaginations? Movies like "Star Drek" and "Bored of the Rings" are not popular without reason. You may say "Enough is enough" but I suspect the crowd will continue to cry "Encore!" ...In order to really have the kind of features we need to bring Poser to the next level, what we really need is the next milestone in Personal Computing to unfold. Is it that our software has to rise to the next level or is it the user who must rise? Even with Poser 3 some people were doing remarkable work. The potential for great art is present in most tools. All that is really needed are great artists. Take a look at some of Tesign's wild life work. Then take a look at the surrealism of David Ho. I believe a great deal of these works were created with Poser 3. But both have gone beyond the standard Poser repertoire and incorporated external tools in their work. Neither worried about their softwares' current limitations. They just went ahead and did their thing- and very well at that. ...Is Poser dead? Is the community dying? Step away from Poser for a moment and consider such things as soap operas, sitcoms and action films that all mimic each other. All these things and more have survived for a very long time with very little change in formula. The Poser community is still young. The ever increasing size of the Renderosity Poser gallery and store suggests that the end still lies over a very distant hill. Poser 5 has proven a disappointment to many. But people are either struggling to come to grips with it or remaining with Poser 4. Few are suggesting they are about to abandon Poser completely. ...Then Poser 5 is released against a backdrop of controversy... I suggest that your very words contain your answer. Too many are too passionate about their Poser. At this stage of the game it seems that the reports of Poser's death are highly exaggerated. The only real question is will CL be able to continue to deliver? If not, the market is sufficently attractive that someone else is sure to fill the breech. Oddly, I find myself in agreement with you on a number of points regarding Poser art and character models. It is just that I do not equate my personal needs with those of the community at large. - Jack

I have been here close to three years now (I think). I have seen many of the talented artists that were here when I got here leave. I have seen new artists come on board, learn some craft, and grow to produce work that is absolutely stunning. I have seen some of THOSE people leave. And still, I am seeing talented newcomers showing up all the time. Dying? I don't think so. Changing? Sure -- as any community must, or consign itself to entropy.

What a thought provoking initial post! Nice one, Wiiiam the Bloody Mon the pale

I started out working in Max, Alias Power Animator and Maya. I would go to trainings at $2500 per 2 days on software that at that time cost close to $40.000 US. All anyone created were war toys and sci fi to blow things up. I felt like a loner trying to create elegant ladies and mystical environments. If it was't games and war it wasn't kool. Power Animator and Maya came out with hair and particles. $40.000 software took days to render and the results was totally unreliable. I got tired of the war and gamer mentality so I lost interest in 3d. Then one day I wandered into the Renderosity Art gallery. I saw beautiful, elegant women and children. Mystical backgrounds and strong heroic men. I was in awe at the quality of the artists and the beautiful work these talented beings were creating with software that cost less than $500.00. I saw the amazing community of artists that created a marketplace so they could produce the art and products of their choice. People who were good at hair provided hair. Gowns and textures by other artists. Beautiful women, handsome men and graceful children all created by INDIVIDUALS not corporations telling them what to produce. I saw people sharing in the free section just to give back to the community. I saw forums reaching out to give each other a hand to solve problems. I felt the strongest pulse of real art and creativity that I had ever experienced. I am glad that I still am privileged to see all of this incredible art created by such talented artists in such an amazing community.

Good post, Darth. And an interesting read, with some good extrapolations and questions. Poser... ? Maybe, maybe not. Even without getting into the P5 release and associated debacle, it's entirely possible that the base P4 code has been pushed as far as it can be in reasonable functionality without major revisions at the engine level... things such as dual cpu and open gl functioanlity, for instance. However, I strongly suspect that for 90% of the hobbyists, Poser 4 and Pro-Pack will continue to do what they need for some time, wether P5 proves to be a viable upgrade or not. For the non hobbyist, and for people who are edging into the professional character design and ghraphics/animation industries, that's just an indication it's possibly time for a number of us - myself included - to grit our teeth and make the step up in price and learning curve to a package like Messiah Studio that does offer the functionality and interface capability with other pro tools that's needed. Getting kicked screaming out of the nest and told to flap. ;] Or choose not to, and accept that we're deciding to work within the limitations of poser and pro-pack. Np. It's a viable choice. Re: "The Community". Naw... not dying. But I'm going to suggest that there's still a certain arrogant myopia inherent in believing that the Poser Community is the center of the online 3D and graphics communities. Last I looked, the other application areas of the graphics communities were still thriving and growing, and Poser and it's attendant birth and predicted demise is barely registering. ;] Now, if you meant that to be the poser community specificaly, shrug who knows. Quien sabe? I seriously doubt even the life of the poser communities will hang on wether Poser 5 survives or CL finishes shooting itself in the head. We're not that fragile, and not nearly as dependant on CL, Renderosity or any other company or site as either CL or various site owners would like to hav us believe.

I resemble the part about all of us being human. I'm Capellean. A star system about 45 light years in that direction

"I order to really have the kind of features we need to bring Poser to the next level, what we really need is the next milestone in Personal Computing to unfold."

It appears that you're defining our advancement as something that is based upon technology (dual processors, raytracing on the fly etc.). Although that does impact what we do in some ways, I'd hope that that isn't what defines us. A Nekkid Vicky In A Temple With A Sword is just that, whether we render with FireFly, P4, Lightwave, Bryce, Cinema 4D or whatever. And that's all it is whether we do it in 2 minutes or 200 hours.

I hope our community grows in ways that are completely unrelated to the technology. I've watched people develop their visual storytelling skills through well written critiques and positive suggestions. I've watched Pokeydots learn to create caricatures. I've seen animators begin telling stories in bits and pieces. I've even seen people share in the delight and creativity of using the same charicter to create different adventures (Renderosibee). Obviously the technology used affects each of these areas, but I think the more important thing is that we're feeding each other creatively.

Right now, as an outside observer (I'm on a Mac so P5 isn't an issue) I'm watching people feed each other tech support. That's obviously needed by many right now. It's more fun for me when we're dealing with other issues but I know this is a necessary part of the growth.

In his "Tao of Jeet Kune Do," Bruce Lee said something to the effect of:

"Before I studied Kung Fu a punch was just a punch, and a kick was just a kick. As I studied it, a punch became more than a punch; a kick became more than a kick. As I mastered it a punch became just a punch, a kick became just a kick."

Right now we appear to be studying P5. Everything is "more than" it is, simply because it's new. As we get used to it, it will revert to its proper place and instead of studying P5 we'll be focused on its application. The study of a technology feels, by its very nature, at least somewhat dead. Firefly settings just aren't that exciting. However, once we've got that down, well, I've already seen some hints that people are going farther than they've gone before. That's exciting. That will come, in time.

I don't think the community is dead at all. I don't think Poser is dead. If we (or Poser) were, I wouldn't have had to go through so many messages to get to this thread.

As a Mac user, it's been very interesting to sit back and watch what is happening to the community, specifically the Poser forum, which has become, from my perspective (at least for the time being) the Poser 5 for Windows Forum.

For us Macsters, this is not necessarily a bad thing. My initial response to the PC-only release of P5 was disappointment, anger and a whole lot of whining. Now my overriding reaction is relief. It's been very enlightening to read the bug reports and pleas for help, along with a whole lot of PC-user disappointment, anger and whining. It's a little like bearing witness to one long heads up.

At this point I've even stopped looking forward to a Mac version of P5, and if one ever comes along under the Curious Labs rubric, I'd think twice about putting down my cash and installing it on my machine at all.

Just my two pennies...