Ok, I know I've arrived a bit late on the P5 scene, and I admit I've not properly checked out R'ity forums for a while. Did I totally miss the P5 discussions, or have they moved elsewhere? I've checked through quite a few previous messages, and not found much there either... Until now, I've been sticking with P4, because I wanted to finish an animation project and was afraid that the new P5 renderer might give a different 'feel' to my final scenes. I wanted to avoid that. Well, thank god I did! I love P4 and think it's one of the best things I've ever had on my PC. But WHAT IS UP with P5???? Is this program unfinished, or what? Deadly slow, inferior renders, frequent crashes... I got SR-1 (not wildly happy about THAT either - it's a BIG download, and not all of us have fast or free internet connections - suddenly P5 is more expensive). And now I'm expected to download and TEST beta SR2??? I mean, OK, P% is a new program, and it's big. Obviously there will be some bugs. But it's on sale, so I expect it to be at least functional, and an improvement on the previous product. Is that unreasonable? Sorry if I'm being incoherent - My mouth has been watering at the thought of starting work with P5, and I'm just overcome by massive disappointment. I don't appreciate paying to be a CL bug-hunter, and if CL want to operate this way, they should consider 'paying' us by offering the fixed product on CD, free. Sorry for the rant, and sorry if it's all been said before. I just had to get it off my chest. But really, is the discussion all over, or has it been moved elsewhere? (I don't mean the SR-2 discussion, but more general matters - like, how to make P5 work). I mean, how have other people coped with this program? I can't be the only one who feels like this. Should I just go back to P4 until this horror is sufficiently patched, or are there ways to make it actually DO stuff? - specifically, animation without crashes halfway through the L O N G rendering process, and ways to make renders that aren't inferior to P4. If this has all been answered before, I'd be grateful for directions to the relevant threads, and for any help, sympathy, or whatever anyone wants to offer by message or email (if you don't want to clutter the board here with anti-P5 stuff.) Thanks, Morphy

Be carefull what you say...........see below post.

there have been rants, rants about rants and rants about rants about rants in september in this forum. if you like to test sr2 then check sr2-beta forum.

Quite a lot on the subject has indeed been said in the past, and quite a number of people are able (or unable) to produce good/poor/no results from Poser5. Seemingly there are instances where other software/hardware combinations - most of which are not clearly denoted even now - will tend to paly nicely with P5 or poorly. Some CD-writing software, for example, apparently affects Poser - though grief knows why . The beta-2 forum is full of problems with the beta of sr-2, and suggested workaround for many (but certainly not all) of those issues. It is known to be impossible to pick up Poser5 (a far more powerful application in many ways) and treat it just liek Poser4 and get the same or better results. The renderer, for example, even when bugs are fixed will require more effort to set up "correctly" for many possible scenes than the P4 renderer - simply because there's so many more options. As to the quality of the program as released - well, it's poo isn't it? It's got major and minor flaws galore (SR-1 addressed something like 85 "issues", disregarding the "content" update!!!). Who is responsible for it being poo on release? why - controversially - I'd say that was us. . What do I mean? I mean that 2back in the good old days" (a time that never was) programs were bought that, in the main, worked. They were released largely when the programmers thought they were ready, and the price tag attached to the software was HUGE! And practically no competition. As competition has increased, the cost of software has been driven down - just like the cost of hardware. But, in a stampede of saving money over getting quality, we put up with it. Pentium processors with math bugs? We don't return the computer, we wait for Windows to include a math-bug patch when it recognises that we've got a buggy CPU. Windows crashes frequently? We reboot. This hasn't gone unnoticed. as the initially HUGE profit margin on software (and hardware) gets squeezed, the development cycle is sped up to maintain as high a profit as possible. Any developer who hangs back trying for quality over speed gets left behind in the marketplace, and ends up down the drain (generally). A vicous circle where products come out faster and faster, and cheaper and cheaper. Are they also going to be better and better programs? Well... Each tiem there's something bad about a program or major component (like CPU's which identify themselves to Intel) there's an outcry - but unless it's sustained and serious then nothing very much will change - and many of US "rely" on the latest software in order for our own companies to be "competitive"... a vicous circle of downward spiralling quality where WE are actually thr driving cause. If we stop buying poor goods then vendors wil lstop making poor goods - they can't afford to build stuff "on the cheap" if no-one buys it. I'm glad you made the (extremely sensible) decision of finishing your project before buying an upgrade to Poser 5 - a logical and reasonable chocie if ever there was one. Far too many people - people that I suspect get patches to windows and Internet Explorer on a regular basis, despite both products having been released eons ago - jumped in head first without checking the waters and expected Poser 5 to run smoothly - for some reason which I have yet to fathom (and yes, windows HAS been released with "critical" will-not-run-at-all issues with certain CPU's in the past). In many cases Poser 5 hasn't behaved terribly well (in some cases it's been just awful!) but the way the computer industry has been going downhill in the last 20 years or so it's not that much of a surprise really. Irritating, but to be expected :( If it's not up to scratch, talk to CL about returning it for refund. The licenses on these things often seem more binding than they are (local law and trading standards may over-rule the license - and this has been the case more often that you'd imagine). I'm not even trying to return mine because, like many people, I WANT that functionality - and we're (CL and the SR-2 open beta-testers) are doing our best to root out the issues and splat them. I'm doing it for my benefit, but if other users benefit from the resulting fixes then so much the better. If CL refuse and your local laws will not allow forcing them to refund, then start talking to the media, stir things up - get newspapers involved, whatever - or join the SR-2 beta test and add your bug reports (you just MIGHT help identify the source of problems which affect you, and get fixes written sooner rather than later). As for the next Poser, the next Windows, the next...anything which requires significant development work - expect it to have bugs. Because it will do. The larger the product, the more problems there wil lbe - possibly on an exponential basis. Verson .00 of any significant program has bugs - always has. or years it seemed CorelDraw! tensded to be stable (thanks to bug patches) some 6 to 9 months after release (yes, there WAS a "final" retail release which tended to corrupt documents when it saved them - a "critical error", which didn't get fixed for several months IIRC). grief, what a rambling post with too many points (some seemingly conflicting). but my main one remains the same - WE are doing this to ourselves. In this instance CL are merely helping us to send ourselves mad, but all major (and most minor) software vendors 2help" us along the same path. Cheers, Cliff Bowman

Hi. Here's my apology, and an excuse :) I wasted most of yesterday being frustrated by P5. Then I got up this morning, and found that the long, slow render that I'd set up before going to bed (an animation sequence) had crashed about five minutes after I left it... And then I discovered that I'd run out of coffee! So I was in a foul mood, to say the least. Sorry if I've re-opened old wounds and restarted rants that should really all have been over and done with by now. After I posted it, I went out for a breather and a double espresso. Then I came to my senses and dashed back in the vain hope that I might be able to delete my message before it did any damage (er, to CL, but mostly to me :) ) Too late. Anyway, I apologise without reservation. I was just in a state of shock at how poor P5 has turned out to be in practice after all the hype. I'm going back to P4 now, but I won't look for a refund, and I'll be keeping an eye on the boards to see when P5 seems to be in a working state. I DO think that CL is a good company, and that they'll get this fixed. I still maintain that, given the huge size of the 'patches', CL ought to provide them on CD to the poor devils who bought the original product, even if at a nominal cost. And now I promise to shut up and try VERY hard not to say anything else on the subject. Morph

MORPH..first..CL will send the patch on CD if you request it.... As one of the early dissenters...all I can say is...the patches thus far, including the SR2 beta, (yet another controversial happening), have improved my copy of P5 200fold....but , as the proverbial adage "your mileage may vary" .... And If I were you, Morph, I sure wouldn't feel bad about bringing this up again....you know how you feel...express it...just stay cool when the flak hits :) But you can see all the threads if you have a couple of free hours, maybe days...just keep wading---or start around Setpember 7th...when the first lucky folks got their copy of P5. Things have really quieted down on the main forum, but as the post above states, to stay on top of the whole deal, head to the SR2 beta forum.

Morphy > Obviously there will be some bugs. who3d > As for the next Poser, the next Windows, the next...anything which requires significant development work - expect it to have bugs. This doesn't has to be true. I got my CuriousLabs Poser 5 update on the 09/25/02. In the span of three days I began to loathe it. I got my Maxon Cinema 4D R8 EarlyBird update on the 09/28/02, this is a PreRelease. Poser loathing was at a high and I didn't want another buggy program. Regardless of this I installed Cinema R8. Guess what? Cinema R8 is stable. The GUI had a complete overhaul, the workflow is smoother. It has tons of new features. It is faster. The grass is truly greener. It even has a timely Mac version. I don't know how many programmers are working for Curious Labs, but there are only 5 working on Cinema R8. I think the reason for Cinemas stability is simple, Maxon has good beta testers and heeds their input.

Perhaps this is part of the reason... and as you know, CL isn't in the same financial shape. MAXON COMPUTER POSTS RECORD EARNINGS Revenue up 48% in Fiscal 2001 Friedrichsdorf, April 8, 2002 - MAXON Computer GmbH today reported record earnings for the fiscal year 2001 (Jan - Dec 2001). Total revenue was up 48% compared with the previous year, enabling the company to achieve its financial targets and consolidate its market position. Even though substantial investments have been made to strengthen the company's future position, MAXON Computer GmbH also reported an 11% gain in earnings before interest and taxation (EBIT). Investments included the establishment of a training center, which is already proving to be popular with customers. Characteristic of the company's success in 2001 was the launch of CINEMA 4D XL R7. This latest release of the company's flagship product not only won numerous awards from the press, it also attracted many new customers, enabling MAXON Computer GmbH to grow its user base to record levels. Increased earnings was also posted by the company's USA branch, providing a clear indication of the opportunities for future consolidation in the American market. Based in California, MAXON Computer Inc. additionally runs the extremely popular Plugin Caf(plugincafe.com), where customers can obtain dozens of powerful expansion tools for CINEMA 4D and BodyPaint 3D.

Morph: good on ya, but I wouldn't worry about opening old wounds - we can do that ourselves (and do!) from time to time anyway. IMHO the main thing is to be able to handle the response to what you type - and from what I've seen I wish I was as good at handling response to my thoughts so well and clearly :( MadYuri : I strongly suspect there'll be 2issues2 down the line somewhere, but by all that's holy I wish we had more of your cinema8 pre-release experiences with retail-release software :( It's nice to hear occasionally of a company that does the job "properly" - anyth job (from writing software to shipping cheap DVD movies - aniother story). Whilst I still think CL need their heads bashing together while we chant "thou...shall..not...release...software...this...unfinsihed...EVER...AGAIN!" I hope people are sending in "Good job, seems to work well" notes to Maxon. Cliff Bowman, cheered to end on a high note!

Moprh oops - forgot to say I hope you got some more coffee, and don't you jus tHATE it when you come back to a render hours later to find it crashed minutes after u left it? Poser4 did that to me too, too many times to mention :( Mind you, so have other Windows programs... see you in the sr2 beta forum ?!? :)

if you compare p5/cl to biggies like microsoft concerning bugs, you must compare p5/cl with biggies like maxon (though not very big) or kinetics also when they release products with just some small bugs. :) last year i had an animation to do with 3dsmax (unpatched - sic!) on 7 pcs as render farm, and it all rendered on nt from august to the middle of november with not a single crash.

@Dave-So: Hehe, probably. Maxon does stable software since the days of the Amiga. Stable software equals happy users. Happy users win over unhappy users of other software programs. This equals more sales of stable software. More sales equals more resourses for bug hunting and enhancement of the software. Stable software equals happy users. ;)

And now I'm expected to download and TEST beta SR2??? No, no, no. You are expected to PURCHASE Poser 5 (for some of us, at full retail price), then you can download the free SR2 and be a beta-tester. So, yes, you are expected to pay for the privledge of beta-testing the latest version.

aleks: Yes indeed, but don't forget the makers of 3D Studio or indeed Lightwave (also reasonably large and have "the occasional patch" - some of which make SR-1 + SR-2 look...well, tiddly). I don't think anyone is holding CL blameless or even to be "about average" (I certainly haven't intended to suggest that they were in any way right to release when they did). [snip I was typing far too much unwarranted repetition!] Cheers, Cliff Bowman