I think that's the longest message I've ever typed. ;-)

Yep Scott it is the longest post I've seen you make :o)

Scott, I agree with you that this isn't a personal vendetta. I might even agree with you about rosity not sharing their business with a competitor if there ever was anything really secret that went on in the merchant's forum. I CERTAINLY agree with you about the bad business decisions. I had my own brokerage LONG before I put my merchandise in the marketplace. Nothing was said when I joined. Only now is anything being said. Private site business shouldn't be discussed in the merchant forum anyway. That's just stupid. However, you are saying that because I also own a brokerage I should have no say in policies that affect my business here? And you expect me to be willing to still sell here? Would you? You know. Renderosity just might have gained some benefits from the competition from having us included in the merchant's forum. I tried to make my posts based on my experience as a store owner. How does that hurt rosity? Granted, I was generally posting about some new nonsensical and unbusinesslike ruling they were trying to institute, but that's only because I don't have a lot of time to spend in that forum. Oh well. Their loss. I'm sure they can live with it.

Haven't you all caught on yet? Rosity doesn't NEED any of you anymore. You made them what they are now... a big enterprise, and they have CL and RDNA, the folks who forget their friends now that they are big! They don't NEED you! It's a sad, shitty world we live in...

"..But don't know enough about business to think ahead."

That much is obvious. Look at the way this was brought about. Tim makes a statement disguised as a discussion and then insults people as he bans them from the one forum that keeps them informed about their products. If he worked for me I'd have fired him over a decision as destructive as this. But then although my family depends on our business we don't see our competitors in the same light as Tim seems to see other sites. Quite the opposite. We're friends with them and help each other out when it's needed. Apparently that type of thinking is beyond Tim and others here. To me, Renderosity was always the central point to the 3d art community. "Was".

That ANYONE thinks its right to accept money for someone's product while they are banned from the forum where discussions affect that product is beyond me. It's not logical at all.
You don't implement something like this in the way Tim did. If someone is selling here they have a right to be informed of policy regarding their product. If Renderosity needed to create an even more private forum that was restricted to their idea of "competitors" that would have gone over much better than 'leave your product but don't let the forum door hit you in the arse on the way out'.

I don't know why Renderosity doesn't just make a seperate forum only available to those who do not "compete". If something needs to be discussed about the inner-workings of Renderosity, then post in that exclusive forum. Then keep the merchants forum for discussing merchant issues. Nah, that might be to simple.

"I don't know why Renderosity doesn't just make a seperate forum only available to those who do not "compete". " They have that. Two of them in fact. They are called the moderators and admins forums.

Nope. Not quite the same, Doc. The admins had their forum and the moderators had theirs. If I chose to keep my products here, I could, but I can't access the forum every other merchant can. It really doesn't matter whether I worked to help build this site before. Renderosity was getting 50 of the sales of my merchandise, just like any other merchant. Site business can and should be discussed in the mod and admin forums which I never had access to as a merchant. I will say it again. No big secrets were discussed in there. But policies that affect the merchants (all of them) were. Why should any merchant be excluded from those discussions?

I have tried to keep quiet about this but I just can't. Let me get this straight 1) If I am a merchant I will be allowed to sell my merchandise here as long as I have no affiliation with other sites or happen to own my own. 2) If I am a merchant here and I DO happen to be affiliated with or own another site I will still graciously be allowed to contribute monetarily by selling my products here, but will not be allowed access to the tools that other merchants are allowed as I would automatically be considered untrustworthy???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? That is the sentiment I am getting from this thread- We are created equalalthough some are more equal than others.. In two words I can say I believe That Blows just about sums it up for me. If you cut your nose off to spite your face you look awfully funny when you brush your teeth in the morning.

You are right about that, Doc. It IS funny. And really, really sad at the same time.

and, now....that whole thread over at PoserPros has "vanished". a purported harddrive failure on their server.

you doubt it Poppi? i know you like your conspiracy theories ;) but why would they delete a 6 page thread supporting them against the move made by renderosity?

Flaxyn, It would not apply to you. Here's some examples to try to clear things up FAQ I'm a regular merchant at RR, does this affect me? -No But I make and sell stuff at other sites? -No But I make and sell stuff at other brokered sites? I sell at DAZ, PoserPros, and I work at 3DCommune. -No But I have my own site where I sell my things? -No But I have my own site where I broker other people's kitchen ware where we share the profit? -No, if you aren't competing with RR, its not a problem But I have my own site where I broker other people's 2D/3D art related things where we share the profit? -Yes, this is the only case affected by this change. People who are operating competing brokerage sites. Unless you are cutting people checks for sales of their 2D/3D art related things on your site, or plan to, you have nothing to worry about. R

you doubt it Poppi? i know you like your conspiracy theories ;) but why would they delete a 6 page thread supporting them against the move made by renderosity? not really doubting it...just sort of pissed that it's gone, as i was following it. i guess i've been at renderosity too long....kind of that going to bed, and "poof" a thread, or, even a person does not exist anymore...and, then some sort of easy explanation when asked. i guess my renderosity headspace follows me when i visit other poser sites, is all.

A person dissapeared from PoserPros?

Thanks, Fur, it wouldn't apply to "me" anyways as I am not a merchant here, although that situation might have changed in the future. This "policy" was brought up in the early morning- I think- and implimented by that very afternooon. IMHO why throw the whole thing open to debate when the minds (and I use that term loosely) of those in charge of this policy were already made up anyway???? I don't know this place anymore. I haven't been here but off and on for a few days and "Shazam!" half my friends are gone or pissed. I don't have anything to drag behind me when I leave except myself and some piddly pictures that some purists don't believe is art anyhow. I recall a time in the not too distant past when I was so proud and happy and honored (yes, I felt honored) to be a member here. Now I just want certain people to take their fights and their attitudes to a different sandbox, you're getting sand in my hair. The problem is they run the joint...... This is just wrong.

Poppi we almost lost the whole bloody site .. and you can believe me when I tell if we had gotten to choose what threads we were going to loose it certainly would not have been the ones that we lost. Russell was up all night..that he managed to save every thing he did was only because he acted as fast as he did...and it was NOT something that anyone who owns a site would want to have seen happen. We lost the posts since Thursday .. nothing more , nothing less.. and it was a hair raising night..

Sorry, fur, but that is who it affects now who's to say down the road it will be the same? Eventually the same argument will apply to staff at other sites and then moderators as well. This is only a first step, because if it didn't apply to these other people the whole "reason" behind it doesn't stand up. Kendra - thank you for pointing out that the changes here for 'rosity's free stuff were copies of the old free section at 3-D Arena, AprilYSH worked very hard on that scripting and we tried to insure that everything people wanted to know was right up front. Then people told 'rosity they wanted to see that here and they used it as an example. After we no longer had it - 'rosity enacted it here. 'rosity didn't have to have access to any "secrets" they looked and recreated. I am quite sure that if we put a free section like that back up (and we have been discussing it) then 'rosity would scream foul. The same applies here, anyone can "see" what is at 'rosity without having to be a part of secrets. And I have never seen any marketing information in there that would affect any site other than 'rosity, their surveys are for their users and don't reflect the needs/wants of other sites.

wow....see, i just popped over there for a minute, this morning...and saw someone's post about missing threads. on the bright side, at least you didn't lose the world's longest poser thread. :*) i will go over and look in a bit, to see if there is a new, similar thread about these goings on.

Yea it was kind of disorienting, I know .. what a night. I think Russ is looking into other ways of restoring threads we lost.

Roy said: "But I have my own site where I broker other people's 2D/3D art related things where we share the profit? -Yes, this is the only case affected by this change. People who are operating competing brokerage sites." And how soon till you start removing other Merchants who have close ties to the other sites? Who have definate ties with such sites as 3D Commune, Renderotica, AniMotions, DAZ, Poser Pros and others?? God forbid, they might rush over to those owners and expose some dirty secrets of such things as the Warehouse section and such... stuff that directly relate and effect the merchants you host and sell for. Why ask people for their opinion if you aren't going to listen to it? Common curtesy?? Perhaps what we are seeing is, Renderosity's attempt of not becoming a "test site" for Content Paradise and Renderosity doesn't want to be the only one to eat the bullet if that idea flops?? No offense, Staff of Renderosity, but you "might" (and I will use that term lightly) end up getting more traffic to your store by being a part of Content Paradise, but you aren't going to make a dime if you manage to drive your Merhcants away... tick off the Community by the lack of support to them and by playing favorites or don't learn how to respond to those Members without being snippy or rude. Obviously you want Renderosity to be "BIG" bvusiness... so then start treating it like a business. You can do so by treating your Merchants and Customers with respect and actually listen to their opinions and input, you'd find allot of them are pretty intelligent. Of course that is my opinion, and if you want to cut yourself off from the rest of the Community, you are more than welcome to do so. No complaints here if you do. Jack

Um, may I pop in just briefly as just a customer? I'm only getting a vague idea what's going on, but it LOOKS bad. A lot of merchants I'm fond of and buy from are bailing, there's legal questions, those with authority here are allowing their personal frustration to slip through on some of their responses, and I'm not seeing an unavoidable reason for it. In general, until the fires die down a bit, this upheaval makes me somewhat hesitant to spend my money here. Add to that the fact that many of the people bailing are the ones I want products from, and it seems like a number of strikes have been put against the Renderosity Marketplace that didn't need to be. Just the confused impressions of one small hobbyist customer.

It is bad. And it's heartwrenching as well. Instead of acting like a business, Tim stated a new policy, asked for feedback, ignored the feedback (which was mainly negative by both those directly affected and those not affected) and kicked people out of the forum all within an hour. He was rude and unprofessional.

You don't treat a business this way. You want to change policy? You let people know, you give a time period and then you enact it. You don't kick them out of the only forum with info that affects their income while taking 40 - 50% of the hard work that helps to run this site. And when that fact is brought up, not one admin has admitted that this was not brought about correctly or professionally. If they do think this is the correct way to run a business, I'm not sure I want to be a part of it. Either as a Merchant or a customer.
And that's incredibly sad to me. I enjoy being involved in this site.

At least I did when I was under the impression that it being run by professionals.

I think the whole things boils down to one concept--- GREED.

I've seen these sorts of business actions implemented before and what usually happens is the business becomes history in short order. Too bad really! Flaxynn, it also comes down to ego.

if i ever behaved as rudely as clinth, or tim, in my business...i'd get fired!!! and, i work for myself. shame, shame, shame. i may be old fashioned, but, there is still something to be said for class and dignity.

Poppi, these things have a way of working themseves out. I've seen it time and time again. You can't cut your nose off to spite your face, it just won't fly. Some really good people have been hurt in all of this and they'll have their day. Trust me.

it seems to me, that, making blatant enemies can never be a good business practice...on either side. no matter how much you hate someone's guts, there should be a modicum of decorum in public. at least, that's how i have to do this life. but, i live in south florida. we don't even know how to vote. trust me...at my building...the land of everlasting renovations...there are folks i HATE, DETEST, would be glad to see DEAD. yet, i smile and say good mornin', and they do too...even though they HATE, DETEST, and would be glad to see me DEAD, as well. it is just the world of commerce. you just don't vent until you are out of earshot.

I've been watching this thread develop all day, and even though my opinion doesn't really mean a hill of beans in the wide scheme of things, I feel the need to give it anyway. I am not a merchant here. Just one of the many who on occasion post their work in the galleries, and thankful for the ability to do so. But I think if I WERE a merchant here, I would be pulling my store right about now. Sorry guys, but you don't change the rules in the middle of the game. It's just not done! Not by professionals anyway. Judging from what I've been seeing all day, it looks to me like the inmates are now running the asylum...IMHO. Poppi? I agree with your last post 100%. <-------Me...Looking to the right...looking to the left...am I gonna get banned now for expressing an opinion??

Avolonne...the key word is "proffessional".

Well, In all good conscience I have to say I have never seen ClintH ever be out and out rude to anyone. Others I can't say that about. Despite the fact that the "policy" was targeted toward the Merchant area only a fool would think that it doesn't affect us all. (Even if it only affects our buying habits) I've been called many things in my life, but foolish and stupid weren't among the terms. Avalonne, put on yer asbestos undies and night vision goggles... ;-)

Guess I won't be buying from R'osity OR runtime DNA anymore, because this is just asinine. I have never seen a site do such a good job of shooting itself in the foot. If you guys ran a shopping mall, I suppose you wouldn't allow any stores that DARED to sell anyplace else, eh? Flaxxn in post 73 had it right. GREED. Off to delete my wishlist. "For the love of money is the root of all Evil." 1 Titus 6:1a

Hi Laura, I just wanted you to know RDNA has nothing to do with the policies of Renderosity, nor do they have say in our policies. I just wanted to put an end to that rumor because I know there are people out there that are under that impression, Thanks -Trav

Goldfire - RDNA isn't actually a part of this decision - in all fairness they have nothing to do with these policy changes.

whoops cross posted.

No problem, Thanks LSM :)

trav...i respect you. and, you have no reason to lie. you have alot of talent. both sites run on bondware. both sites are ready for the cl "content parasite". they are separate, but, are they equal?

I have to post, But Bondware (Tim) controls RDNA and as long as he has any part of RDNA or makes money off it. I will not purchase any thing there.

Hi Poppi, we are not sure about content paradise yet. We have made no decsions yet, when we know we will let everyone know. Thanks. -Trav

Bert: Syyd, Colm, Myself, and the team at RDNA control the site. All policy is set by us, and all RDNA decsions are made by us. End of story really. Normally we would stay out of stuff like this, because we choose to spend our time doing things to benifit the community, but I am kinda sick and tired of seeing our name being dragged into this. This is a Renderosity issue, not an RDNA one. It is funny how these rumors get out of hand so quickly. :)

Trav - is Tim make money off of RDNA? Yes/No If he is your site off of my list

We pay the normal Bondware fees, so I guess he is. Enjoy the other sites Tom, maybe one day you will change your mind and visit DNA again, but no hard feelings from our end. :) Enjoy -Trav

Trav - I'm a customer for a couple days now (Prod Club) and will cont. to be. I just will not purchae anything that helps Tim. A maybe one day you will change with me and move your stuff to a other site. No hard feelings from me. thebert

No problem at all,

I think it is very important that people not confuse the current administration here on Renderosity and their business practices with any of the Staff of RuntimeDNA. I know Eric (Traveler), Colm and Syyd pretty well and know that what they do, they do for the Community first and always have. It is important that people not confuse the fact that although they may lease the bondware forum engine, this in NO WAY makes them controlled by, or in favor of any decisions made by the Powers that Be here on Renderosity. Jack

Thanks for clearing that up Jack. I also concur that the entire team at RDNA is top notch. They always go above and beyond the call of duty and they have been major contributors to the entire community for a very long time.

"In all good conscience I have to say I have never seen ClintH ever be out and out rude to anyone." Neither have I. I have a great deal of respect for Clint. As for RDNA, it is Tim that dragged their name into this and that is unfortunate. They do have a business relationship with Bondware, but they have nothing to do with Renderosity's policies. Please don't punish them because they happen to lease Bondware. Thanks, Diane Thure Griffith DTHUREGRIF@aol.com www.animotions.com Create the adventure! www.renderotica.com Serving the adult graphics community

Jack - I like all the stuff Eric, Colm and Syyd do and I know they has no way part of the decisions made here at renderosity. Now that say, Tim is making money off RDNA and if he's making money I can't support that. I want him to file BK. So if RDNA moves to a new host and new software that TIM is not apart of. "I'll be back" thebert

I can understand your thoughts Bert and wont bash your or begrudge your decision. I just felt it is important that Syyd, Colm, Eric and the rest of their staff be accused for the decisions of Renderosity. People need to understand that this is the action of the owners of Renderosity and no one else, regardless if they use the Bondware Software or may/may not be involved in Content Paradise. Again, I can understand your decision to make sure that Tim no longer profits in any way shape or form, but we all need to understand and place the responsibility of these recent decisions in the area they truly come from. Jack

Um... bad me, I should really proof read my stuff before posting... I just felt it is important that Syyd, Colm, Eric and the rest of their staff be accused for the decisions of Renderosity. Should READ... I just felt it is important that Syyd, Colm, Eric and the rest of their staff SHOULD NOT be accused for the decisions of Renderosity. Sorry for my sever and screwed up Typo!! Jack