After lovingly crafting a new character for Poser in LW 6.5, exporting it as an OBJ, importing it into Poser, grouping it, creating a PHI, and importing it back into Poser, I have been utterly defeated by Poser's Joint Editor. After an exhaustive search of Tutorials, sites, etc., I have yet to find an explanation of Rotation Orders, and I think that is my Achilles Heel. If anyone would be so kind as to elaborate on this subject, or perhaps offer some general advice on Joint Parameters, I would be very grateful. Even a link to a tutorial or discussion I haven't seen yet would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Attached Link: http://www.3dmenagerie.com/

heyas; the plain and easy explanation is in a tutorial in the goodies section of my site. see the link. the standard rotation order is twist/sideside/bend. make sure the first axis goes down the length of your limb, and the last axis is the major direction it will bend. then the leftover one gets stuck in the middle.

Thanks much. I was actually using your tutorial as my primary reference, but it didn't spell out the rotation axes (helped a lot with the zone thing, though. So, for example, a thigh would typically be yzx? a shoulder would be xyz? a wing attached to that shoulder would also be xyz? a head on a long neck would be yxz? Also, do you find that you have to make a lot of joints global falloff? I seem to have to do it to nearly everything.

heyas; it depends on which way your thigh/shoulder/wing/neck/head are facing. but for a standard humanoid, the thigh is yzx, the shoulder/armparts are xyz, the neck and yead are yzx. you shouldn't need to use the spherical falloff zones on straight limbs with only one child each part. usually the only place you need it is where a part has multiple children that get in each other's way, or where an odd shape to the parent and/or child makes them neccessary.

It's very simple. Don't over think it. Everyone over thinks it. Twist is the first thing you need to determine. Twist runs the length of the body part. If the length of the body part runs from right to left (like a forearm). Then the first rotation order is X If the length of the body part runs up and down (like a leg, or chest, or neck). Then Y is the first Rotation order If the length of the body part runs from back to front (like a tail). Then the first rotation order is Z. Chew on that for a second. The next Rotation orders really don't matter. You can't technically do it wrong. It will pose fine either way. But if you want the dials to be in the same order as the default figures. Meaning you want the "Bend" to be on the bottom in your list of dials. Then it does matter. So: If a body part has a Y twist axis. The rotation order would be: YZX If a body part has an X twist axis. The rotation order would be: XYZ If a body part has a Z twist axis. The rotation order would be ZYX It's very simple. But looks complicated. I'm still trying to figure out a way to explain it better. ScottA-- I don't use sperical JP's unless I have to myself. I prefer to widen the JP handles and use some cr2 trickery to set up body parts. But that's another story. :-)

I've been trying to do this for a couple of years now. Still can't do it !

Ming. If you get stuck. There is a file you can use as a refrence guide. It's located in your Poser->Runtime->figures folder. The file is called StdGimbals.txt That lists the rotation orders for a standard type human figure. If your figure has a tail that stretches out behind it. Use the rotation order ZYX. Any other poseing related problems you'd have will probably be the actual JP settings themselves. Not the rotation orders. Where to put the handles and what not. ScottA

The handles are a BIG problem ! Red green color blind.

Oh No. That does present a unique problem. ScottA

It sounds like this discussion also relate to potential ways that one could alter joint params so that IK works in a more desirable way... I've noticed for example that many times limbs twist instead of bending. For me, very often, the bend is what is desired, not the twist. Any tips on how to alter the way IK on a character is interpreted?? Or is this more the realm of ERC? pixelslave

heyas; if the figure is zeroed out, the ik can bend it any way it wants. you're supposed to set up the figure to be in a sort of ik-preferred mode. that is, bend the limb slightly the way it is supposed to bend when you have ik on and try to move it. but i don't think this really helps the twisting. arm ik is always putting my wrists at 1380 degree rotations for some unknown reason.

"if the figure is zeroed out, the ik can bend it any way it wants" That's kind of what I'm talking about. It seems to me that even if I set up a figure to be slightly bent in my "preferred mode", it still twists in whatever direction it wants to and there doesn't seem to be an easy way to get the connecting joints to go where I'd like them to be (typically a natural looking position). As you've probably experienced, turning IK on and off can be really risky and totally mess up a file. So... I was simply wondering if there's a way to get IK to honor/respect limits and actually move in a preferred sequence instead of twisting all over.:-/ I'm just starting to learn about ERC and it seems that some of what it offers could potentially help with Poser specific IK issues. pixelslave

heyas; well, the problem is, that when ik is on, the rotation limits are ignored. i thought i heard/read somewhere that had been fixed in... p5, i think. but i'm not sure it is still fixed. or else i was dreaming. i don't see how erc can help you. what dial are you going to slave to what to make it not twist as you use ik? you could try setting the twist dial to useLimits 4 instead of 0... then see if ik obeys the limits.

As of last check, IK rotation limits problem is still broken in P5. The behavior is the same as with P4. I've see joints with parameter limits set to 4 that can twist 360 or more. Looks like we'll have to continue to wait for more service releases.... pixelslave