After looking at one of my art books, which seemed to show that half the width of the female shoulder was approximately the size of the female head, I decided to see exactly how wide the shoulders of these two models were by using their heads as reference points. As you can see, Posette's head is looks approximately 10-20% longer than half the width of her shoulder. If you therefore want to approximate that look in Victoria, I suggest you reduce the x scale of the collars by about 10%. This will make her trapezius look large, however, in which case you can apply the morphs I posted to compensate for this.

Thanks to explain and correct something i visually perceived whitout define exactely the problem

So, rtamesis, if this is true, then Victoria's shoulders are about right--at least according to this model of 1/2 the female shoulder being approx. the size of her head? I, myself, am quite wide shouldered--I'll have to measure that myself. Wow, just looking at the vertices on the two models side by side too--your image really brings home the big difference from that point, doesn't it? Diane B

It illustrates what I've thought all along - the P4 fem is more like a girl in her late teens/early 20's. The nes model is more like a woman in her mid 30's - grown up and had kids.

Ikyoto--My reaction to the new model is that she is too 'masculine' in her proportions and details. Maybe Zygote was hoping to save time on the male model by recycling much of the Millie mesh? ;)

I think the point a lot of people miss here is that every individual person has different proportions, too. We can't say that Vickie's shoulders are "wrong" simply because they're not like Posette's. Posette's narrower shoulders make her head look a little top heavy. People have gotten used to the way Posette looks (all aspects of her), and when Victoria came along, and she looked different, everyone started picking her apart and trying to find all the differences from Posette as things wrong with her. Can't we all accept that different people are differently built and leave it at that? I personally see nothing wrong with the Victoria character. She's not Posette, but then, she wasn't intended to be. Personlly, I think Posette is just a little too "perfect" to the point that she doesn't look very real to me. We need some different looking characters to make our Poser and Bryce worlds more diverse; not just racially, but indiviudally. In real life, we don't all look alike. I hope Zygote will be creating more different looking people in the future. I'd like to have more diversity in my collection. So, let's stop deciding that Vickie's all wrong, and accept her for the good things she has. The old adage goes, "Beauty is only skin deep." Posette might look "perfect" to a lot of people, but if we got to know her, she could be a self-centered little snot. Vickie, on the other hand, might be a lovely human being. Frankly, I'm kind of tired of hearing how "ugly" Vickie (and the Poser male) are. It only shows how judgmental we human beings are when it comes to physical appearance. Oops, sorry. I didn't mean to get off on a soap box there. Let's go back and have some fun now! ;) Melanie

Mel.. how dare you advocate tolerance and a willingness to use differance as an accent to people rather than a fault! Why that sounds like you might want people to actually enojy what they havea avalible and create soemthing that's (GASP!) not cookie cutter perfect! That would inspire creativity and originality and then where would we be?!?! (ok- anti-sarcasm pill is kicking in. I'll stop now)

Puts down copy of 'Sports Illustrated - World Famous Swimsuit Issue' for a moment... Thanks for posting those pics, rtamesis. It's nice that someone is looking at these figures with an eye for accuracy. Thanks for all your morphs too, they're great. :) Looking at the healthy models in that Sports Illustrated magazine, the average shoulder width (and shape) appears to be about half way between Vic's and Posettes. Victoria is a fairly beefy woman, and not especially trim either. Melanie, I appreciate what you're saying, but I think you're taking it off on a bit of a tangent. This isn't really a case of tolerance and acceptance of individuality, it's a case of 'what the Poser community wanted, needed, and were expecting'. For myself, when I heard Zygote were making a 'Millennium Woman' that would enhance Poser realism significantly, I felt they would essentially be making a new standard, default figure. I was very much looking forward to this, since I felt the regular female figure had probably been developed to near its maximum. What Zygote released was an individual character, a 'person' if you will. It is here that I think they made a major marketing blunder, especially when combined with giving the model an appearance that wasn't going to appeal to the majority of prospective customers (note that nearly all the morphs released so far have been to turn 'Victoria' into a more 'idealised' shape). The market for a hi-res, highly adaptable, idealised standard figure was substantial, whereas the market for a specific character is much more restricted. I'm still mystified as to why Zygote chose this route. Perhaps they felt that they could release lots of characters based on this mesh, in much the same way as users have released lots of characters based on Posette. If so, I think they have seriously misread the market. IMO, Zygote should concentrate on supplying fundamental basic figures so good that we can't do without them, and let the users turn those figures into individual characters. It makes sense that the basic figures should fit in with most people's definition of accuracy and attractiveness, so long as they are adaptable enough to be made into a wide range of individuals. That was the philosophy behind the new figures for Poser3 and 4. It made sense then, and it makes sense now. As things stand, I think Zygote should be very grateful to users like rtamesis for showing prospective purchasers that the Victoria character is capable of being made into the kind of figure they most likely wanted in the first place. I certainly wouldn't have bought the model if I hadn't been shown what was possible. I reckon that if Zygote had made the figure more generalised and standardised in the first place, they would have sold more of them straight away, and all the genius users would have been making individualising morphs instead of generalising morphs!!! Ironically, this would have resulted in more virtual individuals, not less, and your admirable desire to see more diversity would have been fulfilled quicker. :)

PJF--(musing to myself)--that's an interesting take on this--and worth thinking about. You may have quite accurately diagnosed the whole situation with the turmoil surrounding Victoria. Diane B

As for Vickie/Millie looking masculine, consider this - yesterday, while waiting in line to buy groceries, I noticed that there was a picture of Cindy Crawford on one of the magazines (there usually is) that looked about 80% identical to an image I made - with the P4 MALE! With very little morphing, the right hair, and the right texture map, you can make the PoserDork look (from the neck up, at least) just like a supermodel! :-)