I just want to say, that I enjoy coming here, but, something is going terribly wrong here at rosity :( What ever happened to good will towards men? Everything and everyone seems to be attacking or complaining about someones post, their gallery images etc! For example, Marque posted in the poser forum..... http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=966281 and someone said it was advertising, so I come back today to see if anyone else posted to his, and found out he had been accused of advertising. I myself did not see it as an ad, it was simply an image he had done, and was asked where he got the shoes, and he told them. Now Marque has deleted his post! I posted an image I did, that said House mouse models batlabs westernwear, it wasn't an ad, simply an imaged I did. Is my post considered an ad too? What are we suppose to post? We couldn't even post images of a Vicky, then! Wouldn't that be an ad for Daz? My point here is not about admins, as Marque it seems removed his post on his own, but more or less what is happening to the community here? Where are the good old days when everyone got along? Has this all come to an end now? And Marqe if you read this, please post your message again, I for one liked it! Sorry all, I needed to vent!

From my perspective, seeing the post after Marque deleted the image, it would seem that this behavior is only prevalent with certain members and, thank [insert your Deity's(ies') Name(s) here], not the behavior of the majority of the members. I do not see this as being indicative of the overall membership, just a few individuals who like to poke and prod to get responses. The simple act of posting a picture/render of something that was purchased in the MP, or anywhere else, and responding to inquiries about where to get certain items, IMHO, is not an advertisement. If the post was blatantly placed to promote one's own MP products, I could see some apprehension for allowing this to happen. I have seen previous posts in which the member included pictures and stated that the item was going to be listed in FreeStuff or the MP if people were interested in it. That could be construed as an "advertisement" as well, but some people do not frequent the FreeStuff/MP and appreciate being informed when something they want is made available. I view these types of posts as a "public service announcement", so long as they are not entirely marketing drivel for the product. Again, I did not see Marque's initial post, so I cannot state which was/was not the case in this instance.

PD, your image of the HouseMouse in BAT's Western outfit was delightful. I didn't see it as an "ad" at all. (Nor did I see the HouseMouse pic I did last night, posted elsewhere, as an ad. I was simply excited to try out the cute model.) I trust that I'm not alone in wishing to emphasize the positive and the altruistic in this community. Sometimes I complain about this or that, but try to do so in a balanced manner, and in an encouraging spirit. I agree that there seems to be some very nasty bad faith going around lately, and frankly I don't get it. Don't be intimidated by the cynics! You obviously have a great and positive spirit.

I can tell you that the image had nothing in it that was made by Marque. And I too like when people post images showing off something they bought or got in free stuff, that is how I find things I like to buy.

I know that there is more good than bad in the community, but it seems a lot more bad is creeping out now a days! Thanks xoconostle & CyberStretch, I just hated seeing someone get picked on for something he wasn't doing.

S'ok. I mentally ignore off-beat comments and often consider the source when weighing the info. It helps to separate the wheat from the chaff.

This is mainly due to the increase in membership numbers. The larger the crowd. The more important it is to have it under control. The forums (Poser specifically) should have been locked down long ago. With a moderator who would ban people regardless of what the stupid T.O.S. says. The members aren't safe there anymore. Mainly because of two things: 1.) The site owners won't allow the mods. to boot people reguardless of what the T.O.S says. So members manipulate the T.O.S. to their advantage so they can stay and cause trouble. 2.) To properly patrol the forums. You have to be a full time employee. Mods are also responsible for patrolling the galleries too. You can't imagine how much time this takes to do correctly. But since Renderosity can't afford to pay someone full time to keep things under control. We end up with the wild wild west. ScottA

"but it seems a lot more bad is creeping out now a days! "

Let's just say it's not only getting easier to spot the clones but it's also getting easy to figure out who they are.

"Let's just say it's not only getting easier to spot the clones but it's also getting easy to figure out who they are." Does this mean the person who accused Marque of this, does this regularly?

If it is the person I am thinking it is, it is someone who was told not to advertise their item on the Poser forum (by Spike, I believe) and is now applying the rule to everyone who refers (even when asked about a product) to an item on the Marketplace. It's a case of sour grapes, as far as I can tell. Someone being mean spirited. But it also may be the result of poorly defined rules. We can't respond to answer about what we used in a graphic? We can't share our resources with each other because that is considered an advertisement? What is the rule? I'm very confused. I just hate the fact that someone pulls delightful graphics out of here as a result. The joy is being sucked out of this place.

Let's just say I have my own opinons on it. It just happens a lot. Someone posts only complaints, has no gallery, no artist page, etc. Why people feel compelled to create an identity to stir up trouble is beyond me.

Kendra, I just looked up the member who complained and seen that they have contributed nothing to renderosity that I could find. So must be someone with to much time on their hands or sour grapes as dialyn said. Pathetic isn't it.

The threads have been snipped, but the person used to have items for sale in the Marketplace (programs for managing files). Apparently those have been removed (I don't know the story behind it...this is just what I observed), and the person has remained to "police" other people's activities; presumably because of their own bad experience. That's my take on the situation...and I could very well be wrong.

Kendra, I agree, but as I'm sure you know, those are the sorts of behaviors that come with the illusion of anonymity and a generally anarchistic medium. Same as USENET and other online forums. Great enablers of immaturity. People should ask themselves "would I say this in person?" before posting, but many don't. As a point of rebuttal to those who don't like the merchant drop-downs in the galleries ... you're not forced by Renderosity to use those options. Ignore them if you find them distasteful. No big deal to me ... I even try to list Free Stuff providers in appreciation.

I know that I'm not supposed to cross index to another thread, but you will find another exchange between the person I'm thinking of and andix in the thread called "Not buying anything else."

Hmm, he also posted a very negative message on the tutorial for "Quick tutorial for MAT POSE EDIT..." ... if I understand the term, I might guess he is going for troll status. That one was directed toward Stormrage. I really do think what we have here is a case of one very unhappy individual who is trying to make a point on every message thread that he considers related to his cause.

Never mind, Spike snipped that thread too. I think he is all too aware of the activities of the person involved. Too bad we had to lose Marque's current and future participation before he was able to take action. Sigh.

It's really difficult sometimes to find the line, and we do have discussions behind the scenes sometimes on matters like this. I'm not a Poser mod, so I'm not the last word on this, but I generally go by the following guidelines when I look at posts where it seems questionable:

1. Does this concern a for-sale item? If it's a Free Stuff item, it doesn't matter. Showcase Forum is for commercial products; it was created because of complaints that commercial products were flooding the regular Poser forum. No one was complaining about finding out about free stuff offered on other sites.

2. Did someone other than the merchant post the image or start the thread? (Or a merchant clone account?) If so, it's probably okay. (See point 2.)

3. Is the thread/image a "look at what I came up with using this for-sale product (or these products)" post or is it a "Buy this, it's great" post. (This is really hard to decide sometimes. We try to be fair, but we can't always please everyone.)

4. If a merchant posted about a product outside the Showcase Forum, is it a relevant response to a question posed by another member? If it contains general information about the product without a direct link to the product, then it's okay. (If someone is asking MAT poses, for example, then it's okay for someone with a MAT post creation program to pop in and mention that their program makes the process painless, but if the question is about transparency maps, talking about the MAT pose program is not relevant.) And if the question is about the product itself, then answering the question is very relevant.

5. The hard part is the WIP pictures posted by merchants. I look to see if there's anything in the post about methods used, etc. which would help educate users about the program. If it's just a Coming Soon picture, then I ask a Poser mod or an admin to look at the post to decide if it should be bumped to Showcase Forum.

I've asked for a Poser mod or an admin can come by and clarify this as it is their forum. I know it's frustrating when you're trying to play by the rules, but you're not sure what the rules are. We try to make the rules clear, but it's impossible to spell out every last contingency.

Hope this helps!

Thanks, Crescent. I don't think the problem was caused by a moderator directly, but because a member took it upon himself to comment negatively on any member who mentioned a Marketplace item in a post (even when they weren't the seller). This is certainly true of what happened with Marque (who I assumed removed the graphic as a result of the member's comments...but I could be wrong). People who are creative tend to be sensitive and when attacked, often choose to withdraw. It's not the first time this happened. I guess it's not the last time. It's just sad when it happens because we lose talent from the forums for no good reason than someone being in a bad mood.

Crescent dialyn is correct, it was not a moderator, but another member.

FYI... Marque is a lady. ;-)

But the other person is no gentleman. ;)

I understand, and I know the thread you're talking about, but I figured it might make things easier if there was a more definitive guideline so people didn't wonder who was right in the "ad/no ad" debate. I think the question is legit regardless of how it was first posted. AFAIK, a cross-post is just fine so long as it's relevant. It's the links to unrelated topics and products that get people annoyed. (Posting the same topic in several forums if it isn't relevant to that forum is another annoyance.) Cheers!

lol apologies to Marque ( how embarassing!) Thanks for telling me hmatienzo, I guess I should check these things out! lmao@dialyn

If someone needs help finding something it's probably okay to tell them where to get it.

Directly links to e-commerce pages are normally not permitted.

If you say, "The shoes are by billy-t in the RMP" or "The Cool Coils are by Anton at DAZ" that's fine.

Thanks Jeff and crescent :)

"Directly" = "Direct"

Attached Link: POSER 5 SPECIAL EDITIONS!! ORDER NOW FOR YOUR CHANCE TO GET ONE!

Crescent, very cool of you to take the time to clarify. OK, I confess. My current haircut is 100% inspired by Michael's Morphing FlatTop. My goatee is trimmed in the fashion of Tanner by Exotica. I am working on my muscular morphs at 24 Hour Fitness, if less than I should. I have boxer briefs which look just like the ones at RDNA, which you really needed to know. Maybe I should post a photo of myself in the Poser gallery just to be flamed by the "you're advertising!" member. Jeez, what's wrong with mentioning the people who gave you your money's worth? Nothing at all, especially when they're brokered at the place that hosts our renders free of charge! OTOH I see nothing wrong with not mentioning content providers. It's just a courteous thing to do, when it feels right. "Capitalism good or ill is the river in which we sink or swim, and stocks the supermarket." - Gary Panter, artist

Cyberstretch. There's a long thread in this forum from a ways back when the Poser forum got even more rigid about posting links. Started by Renapd I believe following a "you can't post a poserworld link in here" (Poser forum) comment. Essentially you can link to a non-commercial page (home page or freestuff page) but not to a commercial page - ie direct store link or to a "click me to buy this" page. The subject is explored in some depth because in the case of Poserworld and 3DArena posting even to the home page is disallowed. So now Steve posts images of what he's working on and updates go in the store announce forums. 3DArena I believe is still prevented from posting links here because it's a member site with a brokered store. RDNA only posts about their freestuff and Steve at Poserworld links only to his freestuff page, as does Sams3D. So, essentially you can mention to someone that you got "X" item at Daz, or by "artist" but you can't link directly to the product or product page. Nor can you link to pages that require access by registration. In the case of Curious Labs, they linked to their home page which is does not require registration, which contained a link to the product and free download pages and other areas. So didn't break TOS. As CL are directly responsible for Poser the post was extremely Poser related so again, not OT or against TOS. The problems arose from a huge multitude of "WIP and Coming Soon to the store" posts in Poser forum that were starting to bury other posts. Included in this were repeated posts. A few vendors didn't revisit something they'd posted earlier with a new image, they started a whole new thread. It was becoming ridiculous. The PTB here finally stepped in and created the Showcase forum and the majority of vendors went there without complaint - probably happy that they finally had somewhere to post a product that didn't get buried under a dozen "I hate NVIATWAS" posts and two dozen "I think Poser Gallery sucks" threads. :D So the general rule is Product mention ok Product linking not ok Product discussion ok if relevant to question Product spamming not ok Link to site ok Like to member only site not ok Link to freebies ok Link to store not ok. Or something along those lines. In a nutshell. :)

Thanks for clarifying, Q. I misunderstood the "e-commerce" as being, well, electronic commerce; which to me signifies a web site that sells stuff commercially. :)

Hehe.. Easy mistake to make Cyber, I also misunderstood that definition to start with. :)

Geez, I go away for the weekend and see what I miss. {but the person used to have items for sale in the Marketplace Apparently those have been removed} 1) Huh? I don't have any products for sale, so I don't know where you get the idea that my things were "removed"- I don't have anything to remove. 2) If you actually continue reading the message thread, you'll see that I never said the picture was bad or that the artist had no talent. I said that the image belonged in the Product Showcase Gallery, not a Forum. (But, this message was conveniently deleted.) 3) And, yes, the CL links to buy P5 are ads and the images of HouseMouse are also ads. But, since ads for sponsors (CL and DAZ) and free stuff (DAZ) are allowed, we can't say anything. {People who are creative tend to be sensitive and when attacked, often choose to withdraw.} So, by saying that the image belonged somewhere else was attacking them? Man, I hate to see what happens if someone's critical and says the art is bad! Oh, wait, this Renderosity. No one says anyone's art is bad. And if they do, they're called a "troll".

JohnRender...That was my mistake. I thought you had an item you were offering for sale, and that's what sparked the discussion with Spike. I apologize for any confusion I caused. It was not intentional. In general: While I think there are ways to constructively criticize someone's graphics without appearing to attack the person, I won't waste my breath discussing style here. "Bad" and "good" are opinions only...unfortunately some people take these pronouncements to heart. The fact that you or someone else may think my graphics are garbage wouldn't mean much to me because I don't know you or the other person and have no reason to think you or the other person have my best interests at heart. I don't exist as a real person to you anymore than you exist as a real person to me. Unfortunately some people take every posted opinion as being worthwhile and the negative ones are taken as something that needs to be agonized over. There's no way to educate people on being cautious of accepting as absolute truth what anyone says on these forum. Every person has his or her own agenda...and sometimes he or she doesn't care about the feelings of the people involved because he or she is single minded about forcing that personal agenda down other people's throats irregardless of whose work they are commenting on. In that case, a Leonard or Michaelangelo would not be good enough for these self-proclaimed experts. It's just something to keep in mind...an opinion is only an opinion and not worth the paper it isn't written on in the land of the virtual. My opinion has as little weight and importance as anyone else's here, and that's also true of everyone else here. The exceptions being, of course, those people who may have your personal respect for whatever reason. I don't respect someone just because they tell me I am supposed to. But there are people on this forum that I admire greatly and their word I would accept whether it was a compliment or a suggestion for improving my graphics.

I wish rosity had a "watch this topic" button, so I didn't have to type some piddly thing just to know what is going on and what different member's opinions were.