lately everyone seems so down on the poser gallery because of it's content or lack of artistic merit. Why not split the gallery yet again. Why not add intermediate and advanced gallerys? That way people who are not totally new to the program but have not gotten the to level of expert, would have a place to post. And those who have taken the program to higher places could have there place. People like Extasy, debbie M, Lisa B, anton, etc would have there gallery to post in. Then those who want art could go and see what these people are capable of. Im sorry that my work isnt up to par, It is a hobby. And Im still learning. It is a thought. I know some will say "thats what the hot 20 is for". But not everyone can be on the hot 20 and there are alot of fantastic works that are left out.

Oh this is not a slam on people who post in the poser gallery. there are alot of dam good works there. But I do know alot of us are still learning the program.

Not so sure it's the quality of the technical ability in question. I think it might be the choice of subject matter. The thread I got entwined (pun intended) in seemed to take offense at the repeated portraits of Vicky, nude's of Vicky, semi-nudes of Vicky, and Vicky within 500 miles of a temple. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me...

Pretty much in agreement with ya there Chuck. It's not quality or technical ability, if anything on a technical basis there are alot of great renders being posted. For me it's just the repetition of imagery. I'd rather see an original idea excuted poorly than another cookie cutter pristine render. IMHO....Jon

PS.. Spudgirl, took a look at your gallery. Yer a perfect example of what I'd rather see. You're still learning but your concepts contain more than just Figure+prop+pose+blank stare+silicone implant morph and render. You've obviously put some thought into your subject matter, context and layout. As your technical skills increase those give ya more than just a pretty render. But that's just me. IMHO Jon

Not a bad idea, but I wouldn't want to have to be the one telling someone they shouldn't be posting in the Advanced Gallery. Many people have unrealistic views about their talent level and are suffering from delusions of adequacy. Myself, for example. ; )

Well thanks. :) Chuck I saw your replys to that post and I gotta say Im in total agreement with you. I was so glad to see someone who "got it". :) I have alot of respect for you even more so now. spratman: thank you very much. I try to be diffrent in my renders. But I still need to learn so much more. I just kinda wanted to throw my idea out there and see if it stuck :) LOL.

Yeah Hiram I kinda thought of that as well. I hate to be that guy or gal who was told.."hey man your not that good yet". Hummmm maybe i should have thought this out better huh? LOL.

I like the ides as well. Unfortunately, I think people would be kicked out of the intermediate gallery before they are ready. =) I know I was asked to leave the beginners gallery before I was ready.

I think the opposite might be the greater problem, considering the volume of raw beginner work in the main Poser gallery. I wonder if there's some way to do lists like Lyrra's, in a kind of Amazon-type format, complete with thumbs. That way members could showcase gallery work they'd like other members to see. Any thoughts?

It would be pretty hard to define what constitutes the various levels. I know one artist who thinks he's "intermediate," but I think he's an amazing artist of accomplishment. I consider myself a newbie and a beginner, but some people have said "I wish I could do that!" about some of my renders ... go figure. Your intentions are cool, spudgirl, but IMO this is all too subjective. Maybe we could have a separate gallery for "Sexy Vicky with Post-render Glow, Painted Hair, and Interesting Curves" gallery. (just kidding ... sort of)

Lost me Mosca...not entirely difficult, but not sure I understand. I'm familiar with Lyrra's "10" list.

On Amazon, users care able to set up top-10 lists which show up next to whatever product you're looking at: Bob's top 10 blues cd's, Fred's top 10 philosophy books, etc. The lists come complete w/ thumbnails, so you can go directly to any book or cd or whatever that looks interesting. Go to Amazon, you'll see what i'm talking about.

Just curious. Why is this so important to all of you? Is this a traditionnal thanksgiving question? :) ? Can't we live and let live? After a while don't we all avoid certain works and go directly to the works of those artists that speak to our souls? Why? Q Snob and proud of it :) Family motto. On the crest and all...:)

I think we have a sense that some really good graphics are getting lost amidst the temples. I guess we could just give up and just stare at our own renderings (actually, I can't even do that right now because Poser 5 has been uncooperative in doing anything except staring back at me for the last week). I really appreciate it when someone says, "Hey, look at this...it's really special." It's like finding a diamond in a pile of polished glass. They are all very pretty, but one is just a little more valuable as an item than the rest. That's what I like about Lyrra's idea....but I don't know how many people cruise over to the Art Theory Forum and check it out. Heck, I didn't think to look there myself because I knew anything dealing with art theory would have nothing to do with me. I'd like to see some system other than the Hot 20 for highlighting interesting or unusual or especially well done graphics....sorting through the galleries is not something I always have patience or time to do. Bad on my part, but I've seen all the Vickys in uncomfortable armour I need to for one life time.

I'm with you quixote, I don't judge the stuff I see here, I just look at it and if I like it great, if I don't I move on. Wonder if these people would walk into any gallery and slam the artists. I don't like a lot of stuff I see, but there are people who do and I say let them enjoy it, and let them do the same for me. It's like anything else, movies for example. Ever notice how we get a run of the same kind of movies. One month it seems to be all cowboy movies, next month it's all space stuff. I think the Vickie in the temple thing will die down if people will just let it. lol Marque

Yeah--I think the sheer volume of gallery posts makes the galleries essentially unusable. The needle's still there, but damn, that haystack is huge. Weren't they going to limit posts to one a day, or three a week or something? Even that would help.

"This gallery is primarily for images rendered within Poser itself. Images of Poser figures rendered in other applications are still welcome, but what's the challenge in that? See how well you can do using it's basic rendering tools! " This is the header of the Poser gallery - why not taking this serious ? I can show you many pictures with pasted parts from artwork or photos I actually know, This gallery is not about art - its about rendering with poser ( and learning from others). I mailed to some people where I could identify the parts but I got no reactions, although the parts are identical into pixelstructure, Or even worse, when I asked why the clothes are not fitting, the answer was "blame the original creator". Postwork, pasting and so on has no place in this gallery. Why not making a gallery for those, who like to hide a mediocre render with Photoshop or add non 3dcg stuff ? This is how it is in other groups on the net. Its not about nudity, temples and the other stuff- its about work with 3dcg - my opinion. MungoPark

"This gallery is not about art - its about rendering with poser ( and learning from others)." That would explain why it's crammed with white-background pinups and precious little else, I guess.

That is a good point and the main problem I see too. Far too many renderings in the poser gallery have very little to do with poser and much more to do with pasting and postwork. If everyone that just used poser for a moment really posted there then bryce would be absolete since many bryce renderings utilize poser also. Why is there a mixed medium gallery if all these paste up and painting artists still insist on posting their work only in the poser gallery for attention they really don't deserve for that particular medium? Poser is not at all the primary ingrediant many are using in their works since they only use it for the background under their pastes and postworks. The poser gallery should be for people that do at least 75% poser I should think, not the other way around.

"That would explain why it's crammed with white-background pinups and precious little else, I guess. " By the way I dont mind white backgrounds, because they are honest and they are not pretending something which was not possible in direct rendering. May be I am a purist, and for my self I will move to a place where other purists are.

For me, postworked or "pure Poser" isn't the issue at all--who cares? What's dismaying to me is the sheer volume of posts. The people who seem a little desperate for attention are the newbies who feel compelled to post every single piece of crap they've ever rendered. Hey, there's an idea--maybe we should have a new gallery called the "Every Piece of Crap You've Ever Rendered Gallery."

"That is a good point and the main problem I see too. Far too many renderings in the poser gallery have very little to do with poser and much more to do with pasting and postwork...." Then you're not expecting art. You're there to look at technique. I'm ok with that, I guess. That's not at all what I'm there for however. I can't, off the top of my head, think of any visual art that is exclusive or gallery that would only show works in one medium. To me, it's what an image says that's important. Break down the walls, I say! Re-integrate all the galleries...:) Now if you'll excuse me, I have to duck and cover...Gime shelter...

Ohh I think I started something bad here. Fot that im sorry. It was just a thought. Nothing more. I guess I am guilty in the postwork sense on some of my stuff. But for the most part I try very hard to get what I want to acheive from poser. I think I was crawl back under my rock now.

that should ne will not was. LOL.

"By the way I dont mind white backgrounds, because they are honest and they are not pretending something which was not possible in direct rendering. May be I am a purist, and for my self I will move to a place where other purists are." So basically you only want to look at work that's just like yours. That's not being a purist--it's being a narcissist.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=977521

Gee, I wonder how that's done (multiple links in a message). Must be some kind of HTML wizard or something.

You can do html coding in the messages. You can override the automatic coding and put in your own. Not a wizard. Just basic code.

In case I am nerving ... sorry. I still would like a gallery "pure poser". For instance if you go to the CL website or DAZ even the Marketplace here - the pictures shown are not 100% Poser - this is somekind of advertisment I dont like at all and it tricked me into buying more than once. Ever bought a texture here and it renders like s.... ? It will render only under one light condition. Thats the normal case - advertisment does not meet the reality of the possibilities . I want to know why this is the case. Lets face reality, this is what is missing here. Art in german "Kunst" comes from "knowing how to do" and thats it.

No no no. You see separating by anything other than subject is fruitless. :) I think there should be a Vicky gallery. And a gallery for everything else.

Spudgrl's idea is laudable, as were all the others which addressed this subject. None of them has pleased everyone. People dislike the Hot 20, they complain that the gallery categories are too vague or too specific... Self selection will not work. Create skill levels and people will continually be criticised for putting their work in the wrong level. A jury will not work. They'll be accused of favoritism or corruption. The Amazon system might have some merit if people use it and update it, but you'll be spending time looking for what someone else thinks is good. All the advanced art lovers should set up a group where they can nominate images. The top X candidates are that group's virtual gallery. The naked Vicky folks have their own group and do the same. Whoever wants to form a group/clique or whatever can do so. Oops, but the members would still have to scan through all the stuff they don't like. Oh, well. The answer is that there is no answer. Having an open gallery system, like democracy, isn't always pretty and is seldom perfect, but I don't see a compelling alternative. I know it's a rough life, no travel, entrance fees or prune faced docents or shifty-eyed guards - just click that mouse wait and look. Being offended or disappointed with some of what you see is part of life.

I am still not convinced. When I want to do photoshop I do photoshop, This is shameless advertisement for pure Poser: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=286880&Start=1&Artist=MungoPark&ByArtist=Yes This is the P4 render engine - nothing else and a lot of work and in my view this is the only way to go. Wait till I have P5 (if it ever comes out for the MAC), I give up and go to bed.

"Art in german "Kunst" comes from "knowing how to do" and thats it." Well, that pretty much explains the last 400 years of German art history (up to ab-ex, anyway). zzzzzzziiinnnnnggggggg!

"zzzzzzziiinnnnnggggggg! " Unfortunately for you it is the same relation in english and french or whatever- there its latin and comes from handicraft !!! Sorry---- Now its my time: zzzzzzziiinnnnnggggggg!

Actually, you're wrong. In English, anyway. At least, if you were born after about 1500. Usage, my man--usage.

My mistake--the current English usage goes all the way back to middle English, and is latinate (from the French), not Germanic in origin. The etymological root is the latin ars (as in 'vita brevis, ars longa'). A whole different concept. This from Yahoo's online dictionary: Art NOUN: 1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature. 2a. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium. b. The study of these activities. c. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group 3. High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value. 4. A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature. 5. A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts. 6a. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building. b. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer. 7a. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art. b. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice (Joyce Carol Oates).8a. arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks. b. Artful contrivance; cunning. 9. Printing Illustrative material. ETYMOLOGY:Middle English, from Old French, from Latin ars, art-.

Keep posting, ziggie. You're the only one that has to like it. My complaint, to the extent that I have one, is not with any one person or anybody's posts--I just wish the admins would get a clue and reduce the number of times a member (and his/her clones, by the way) can post in a given week. By about 80%. And boy, did I just get a seriously pissed-off IM from MongoPark! I always thought Germans were known for having a sense of humor!

(not.)

Hey ziggie, I love your posts and your models. Don't let the few spoil it for you.

dang I certainly unleashed something here. dang, should have kept my big mouth shut I think.

No, spudgrl. You're a member here. Certainly, the "seniors" and the experts and the vendors seem to carry a lot of weight here. But everyone is entitled to an opinion. Flames may result. Discussions may result. You get a chance to see other points of view when tempers don't flare and insults don't abound. You made an observation in another thread and tried to suggest something to help out. I don't see a need to apologize for other people's reactions. And no need to apologize. :)

Gee, I wonder how that's done (multiple links in a message). Must be some kind of HTML wizard or something." Chuck.. Simple html (Dang rosity doesn't like the < command.. grumble grumble Use greater than to open the command A HREF="linkurl" lessthan to close the command link title then greater than /a lessthan S Not hard..:) but then I hand code most of my html pages.. :)

Oh, you HAD to bring that up, Stormrage...LOL. I had another idea...copy the message with the 10 "listings" in it and paste to Frontpage. Then look at the HTML. Make changes, copy out between the Body tags and paste. How does that sound?

sounds good to me :) any way you want to do it chuck :) hmmm *looking at my above post.. < > *

grumble Surrrre now they work !

I agree with Mosca, the number of postings does need to be limited. The high number encourages a sort of "complacency". IMHO. If members were limited to one a day or three a week, then this may encourage people to sort the wheat from the chaff, as it were. Being a photographer, principally, I see the same kind of things happening in the Photography Gallery. There is, it seems, a high proportion of animal photos (nothing aagainst that) in relation to other subjects. Perhaps this is, as was commented earlier, "a trend", and they will move to the next trend, whatever that may be, soon enough. Remember, with art, one has the choice of whether to view a piece or not. If it holds you, then enjoy it. If not, then move on to the next. It is down to choice! IMO, I do think there are indications of elitism here. If members are so concerned as to the "standard" of work, then surely those members should take a hand in encouraging and developing the artist/hobbyist creatively to raise the mark. I do not profess to be an artist myself. For me, Poser is a release away from my main vice of Photography. If gives me an alternative to use to release me, for a few hours, from everyday life. A fantasy world, a sci-fi world. As long as its not here, I don't care! Anyone checking my gallery will see that my freelance photography work involves staring at pretty women all day(mostly). Similar to the "Vicky-in- a-temple" syndrome. Although the subject matter is similar day-to-day, I feel that each piece should be viewed as a stand alone work, regardless of the similarity. (Up to press, it has not affected sales). This is how the Poser work should be seen. Some members do 3DCG/art/postwork for a living. Most, however, do it as a release from the everday world. I do not think we should judge them so harshly!! Ziggie, keeep posting mate!! OK, end of rant, now heading back under rock!!. Dave

looking at tits and ass is ok, but looking at computer generated tits and ass over and over is getting old, it's time to move on people OR GIVE ALL THE VICKIES AND STEPHANIES THEIR OWN GALLERY

I don't know why people talk about the gallery not being creative. We have many pics of Vicky that aren't very creative and they get tons of views and comments whereas, when someone does post an image that shows some form of creativity, most people ignore it simply because it isn't Vicky showing off her body and because it wasn't done by one of the more popular people here. Don't even talk about creativity unless you intend to support creative efforts by everyone instead of a selected few. This is supposed to be a community of people supporting each other. It's more like a clique where if you aren't on a popularity list, you get ignored. I've seen some of the same images posted here and on 3D Commune and they received many more favorable comments than they have here (actually posted some of those images myself).

Oh how I love seeing the pretensious comments of people who are tired of seeing nude vickies and temples. Guess what folks, don't like it? Don't look. It is as simple as that. You may not want to render or see nude vickies, but by god someone does even if it is just the artist making it. Where people get off belittling others for their prefered choice of imagery is beyond me. If you really want to change the trend, try uhm... oh I don't know... rendering and posting something different your-damn-self. Or even better try commenting on non-vicky-ina-temple images that already exist. If people see that this style gets more attention they might just go for broke and try their own images. In other words put up or shut up. BTW: I wasn't smashing spudgirl or the others with intelligent ideas, just the select few who have to bash the work of others.

it's not called belittling,MOONBITER,it doesn't take talent or imagination to keep pumping out naked vickies, also it's funny how only a chosen few around here are allowed to speak their minds, the rest of us are supposed to sit quietly in the background, so if you don't like certain comments, as you so eloquently put it above "DON"T LOOK"