Ethesis, Actually, if I remember correctly, David is actually a cross between V3 and Stephanie Petite... Unlike AsShanim's character (which was based off of V3 to begin with), Renda was supposed to be a completely new and unique figure, built completely from scratch... unfortunately, during the creation process she was kinda stamped out of the same mold as V3 and then DAZ's Intellectual Property was used to make her work. Think of Renda being like a cookie... Renda was supposed to be a completely new cookie, and though it there are other chocolate chip cookies out there, Renda was suppose to be a unique recipe by Renderosity... However, during the creation process, the creators of Renda decided to create their cookie to be made in the same shape of DAZ's own cookie... already removing some of the uniqueness that Renderosity's cookie would've had, but then, when it came right down to making the cookie ediable, Renderosity decided to use the same (not so) "secret" cookie recipe that DAZ created for their cookie, packaged it and tried to sell a DAZ Brand cookie as their own. Almost like me taking a bag of Nabisco's Chip's Ahoy cookie, opening them up, sprinkling a little powder sugar on them and then putting them in a Jack's Sugar Chocolate Blast Cookie bag and selling them as my own brand of cookies... It isn't ethical and it is stealing, no two aways about it... and that is pretty much what just occurred with Renda. The fact that DAZ didn't slap Tim with a lawsuit and even took steps to work with Tim to correct this obvious theft is a testiment to DAZ's desire to work with those that would even entertain a notion of being competition to them (DAZ)... and, personally, I think Tim should be pretty relieved that he got away with it without being punished, unlike Mehndi who lost her position and website in this Community for stealing textures and claiming them as her own. I guess that is the difference between the majority of the Poser Community here and that of the Community on Poser Pros... over there an offense like stealing and trying to pass something off as their own to that Community is a Sin punishable by being ostrosized from the Community and no longer trusted... but over here, theft is seen as a mistake, forgiven... the person responsible is patted on the back for "coming clean", forgiven and allowed to continue their function and plans... As an "outsider" now, looking in on the Community, I look forward to see the new figure that is in works and see just how many people purchase and support a product from a company that has already tried to pass something off as their own that obviously wasn't... Jack

I think that sort of defeats whatever purpose that Renderosity owners had when purchasing and working on Renda... the intention was not to create, yet another, Victoria 3 character... but an entirely new figure that would've been (or had been hoped to be by the PTB) to be "competition" to Victoria 3. I think the majority, no matter what was done to Renda, would stray as far away from her as possible if Renderosity choose to re-release her... if she had been a firework, she would've been an utter dud... better to scrap her and start fresh... or not at all... but I am 100% certain that it will be the former... Jack

While I can't get into too specific details due to NDA's and whatnot, I have been working in the Anime and Video Game market for a while now. Interesting enough, getting into the Video Game industry would've never been a possibility for me if not for Poser, which helped to teach me the basics so that I didn't have such a steep learning curve when moving on to Maya. I have found that the Video Game market is really fast paced, it seems like every week a new product comes out that challenges other companies to emulate that feature and include it within their own game engines (MMORPGs are a good example of that). It is also interesting to see the flurry of activity that ripples out in the "Modding" Communities as average players or gaming fans also enhance or expand a game beyond it's prescriped capabilities. Anyhow, that is where my time these past few years have been spent, with much less drama or excitibility. :o) Jack

No hard feelings either, Mobius and I apologize, didn't realize that there was a Mobius and a Moebius, I figured both were the same individual, I'm sorry! Jack

If you're looking for the 'sex sells' only crowd, it's at Rotica.<< Actually, you'd be surprised that even the items that don't have a sexual use sells quite a bit over at Renderotica, as I am sure that some merchants who sell both here and there will attest too. Jack

Is anyone really surprised at this? Sheesh, take a look around at how this place is run. It's about a quick and easy buck...and we all buy into it. Having been here from day one and witnessed all the business shenanigans that went on with Mr. J Kammerer, it's not a surprise how this all is going down. I'm sure he's having a good time watching this.<< Hey Mobius, It is interesting that you say that, because just yesterday while talking to Ironbear he and I pretty much said the same thing all boiling down to a pattern of behavior and curiously enough, despite those patterns, people continue to move on as though that situation occurred to such an extent where Ive heard people of power in this Community joking about this Community having short term and selective memories. /shrug/ maybe there is some truth to that after all. Forgive me for not mentioning Solandra, which incidentally, if memory serves me, was really one of the first human figures made for this Community that wasnt made by Zygote/DAZ but made from a Community Member. and I also remember that, even though you and I had a disagreement about her and some work that I thought still needed to be done on her, and despite your anger at me at the time, you worked very hard on making her even better for your customers and put a lot of time in her creation, long after I left Renderosity. As for me having a good time watching this. Strangely, I find myself apathetic to the whole thing. Maybe that is because that Poser has once more become only a hobby for me (and a drastically reduced one for that matter) and Ive moved on to an industry where progression and innovation happens on a weekly basis and absorbs much of my time. Perhaps a few years ago, Id be dancing a jig and urinating on the corpse of Renda, and be smug about the whole ordeal I did have a tendency to be a PITA at times. But today, I could care less if Tim walked out of his office butt naked and declaring how wonderful he looked in his new clothes. Today, however, I just sit back and just shake my head in amazement at how this Community allows these things to repeatedly happen to them over here and how the administration and moderators here (those that I always believed to have integrity) rush, like mindless zombies, and defend the bad decisions made (like Renda) and repeat in mindless, robotic fashion that: Renderositys Sales have NEVER been better. Which leads me to believe that if the Community isnt going to bother to wake up and defend itself from these sort of abuses, well then, they deserve whatever crap they get. If these people arent going care about themselves then, really, why should I? Off topic, very AWESOME work that youve been doing with Stonemason and you can definitely be sure that I will be buying more your guys stuff over at DAZ. I cant get enough of your sci-fi stuff (or your Urban set) and always enjoy the hidden messages that Stone puts in the textures!! Jack (who loves his Mother LOL)

If they did the same testing which they do to our >>products, RENDA would have never been released. I just >>wanted to inform you, nothing else. Understood :o) So the next thing people and the other merchants here should be asking is why wasn't she held to the same standards of testing?? Jack

I agree Anton and I even remember you stating those same concerns to me many years ago when you first told me that you were working on Apollo. :o) As for manipulated... I think that is a concern and a topic that will probably need some attention in the near future and in a thread of its own. I certainly think that there needs to be some way in which to educate the Community for things in which to look for. Not just for model makers, but also for people who are interested in purchasing products to avoid becoming innocent victims. In just this year alone, with my very limited activity in the Poser Community, I can think of five instances where customers have been screwed because of situations like this one, because they've (the products) made it past store testers and sold... so, yes, something definately needs to be done to prevent this from continuing to happen. Jack

jjsemp, Forgive me, I wasn't directing my post and comments towards you in particular, I was merely replying collectively in regard to some of the Community's attitude around that particular subject. Many times now (situation with Mehndi immediately comes to mind, as well as, this one does) where some of the members try to defend the owners of websites such as this one by saying things like: "Well they aren't professional business people, so cut them some slack... etc." What I was trying to do was state my opinion in regard to comments like those, because I seriously believe that once the owners of a website decide to conduct "business" where money is exchanged for product or work... then they should be considered as a business and if those individuals have a lack of regard for their customers or don't know how to run a business, then they really shouldn't be IN business. Sure it is fine to excuse some mistakes made, but there are some mistakes that should be intolerable and in instances like this one or the one involving Mehndi, well, damn those should be pretty hard to overlook or forgive and forget. Now, I don't know how it is for anyone else here, but I am lucky to have what little money I happen to have and darn lucky if I have a little extra to spend now and then. My money is important to me and if I am going to spend that money on something, I darn sure want to be assured that it is worth that money I spent... and if it isn't, I am going to question why it isn't, not make excuses for the individuals who sold that crap to me. No offense, but I have to wonder as a customer here (which I am, as many of the merchants here can attest too) if Renda could be passed and put into the Online Store with the glaring flaws that she had and she was supposed to be a name brand, flagship product for the company and individuals who own this website... well, god, just what sort of real testing is being done here in the online store for customer quality assurance in products that aren't directly related to the reputation of the owners here? And if Im off base then my next question would be... WHY wasn't Renda held to the same standards of quality as opposed to any other product that goes into the online store? Maybe it's just me and the fact that I consider myself lucky to have what little money I do have to spend and the fact that I can't spend it frivolously, means that it is going to bother me when I've felt that that money has been wasted. /shrug To forgive I can do, sure, but to forget would be to give up an experience... one that I really wouldn't care to go through or relive again if I can help it. Jack

Actually just to clearify something Jack said, Apollo >>took 6 months to do. >>I started it late October 2003, I put it down and moved, >>relaxed for a year etc. I kept track and it added up to >>about 6 months for me. 1/2 the time was in >>test,experiments and tweaks. >>Not that that matters or is relevant. Just a factoid. Hey Anton, I know that between your old job and working at DAZ that you were kept quite busy to really work on Apollo as much as you would've like too. Please understand, that I wasn't speaking ill of your abilities, because I wasn't. I was just trying to point out that there is a lot of work that goes into making a figure which you've verified in regard to your own figure... it just isn't a two month process from start to finish... there is a lot of work involved. Jack

XFX3D >>"Not necessarily, JDK. We could do it. THe mesh would take about a month to finalise, and then the morph set and some starter clothing. Half the mesh is the UVMapping. It's all doable. But it would have to be done by people who know what they are doing and actually develop content hardcore, not people who sell it for others and farm it out to anyone who comes along." If you say so, I guess we will see in the near future won't we? ScottA >>Well.....You SOUND an aweful lot like Dodger. :-) I agree and if so, then my above comment should hold some bearing... Jack

they haven't got any education in how to properly run a business or deal with customers. The exception to that is the Renderosity is RUN by a COMPANY and owned by a successful corporate business man who owns a company outside of this website and retains a fulltime attorney. He is NOT inexperienced to the ways of business or conducting business, he is very intelligent and skilled. So that excuse, if it could or should be one, doesn't apply here. If you are going to run a website that sells product to the public, home-based hobby or not, it is STILL a business and should be ran and maintained as such. Inaction or ignorance isn't an excuse to sell bad product, harm the reputation of others working on that product, or take money from customers for half finished product. And if you think it is okay to do that, then you deserve to be treated like sheep and fleeced. Jack

I can honestly say that when Renda was initially released I was surprised at how fast she was done, learning about her creation back in April I was VERY surprised to hear that she was released only two months later. As a person who has worked on a completely ORIGINAL figure, I can tell you that a two month development time for anyones first go of it is unheard of and certainly is an omen for disaster. Victoria and Michael by DAZ (all versions) took months and months worth of work by a nice sized staff. Dina V by DSI took a little over nine to twelve months to complete from scratch. Max by Anton has taken several years of development and work by Anton ALONE to make that figure what it is today. Natalia by Dcort took a good while before she was released, dont know the actual time limit, but knowing Dan and the perfectionist that he can be from working on Dina, I am sure it took a good while for her figure before release as well. I know of another figure that will be coming out in the near future that has been in development for almost a year now My point is, there is absolutely no way that a two month turn around for a figure is sufficient to completely test it, work out the bugs, assign Joint Parameters without it exploding in your face Hence the reason why I didnt buy Renda upon her release and for sure wont be now. What I have seen of her release is what seems to be the standard practices of many companies today. Release the product in less than perfect format, capitalize on it at the expense of your customers and slowly work on it and release updates (Poser 5 for example). This sort of thinking is what is going to kill this Community and any business for the merchants in it. Frustrating your customers and pushing out crap product is NOT A GOOD THING!! Now many of the merchants here and elsewhere are feeling like theyve been screwed and for all intents and purposes they have been. They invested their time and effort in the hopes of a return that just wont come. And that sour taste is going to be there when others come along with a new figure and looking to get support for it and because of that, they will suffer for the idiocy that has occurred here. My suggestion to you, remove Renda. Compensate the merchants who have worked on the project and created product for an unusable character. Pay them not as brokers but as work for hire employees for their time and hard work and THEN get out of the publishing business, because you obviously have very little regard for your customer base by selling her as screwed up as she was and that is going to affect any future products, sales or support towards any other product that you had in mind in short, you killed your publishing business. Stick to running a website/brokerage store while you may not do that perfectly, you arent blatantly taking money from your customers and members at such a personal risk to yourself by selling unfinished product that was created in bad faith. My next suggestion would be that you listen to your staff and the merchants, because if you had, you wouldve avoided a good portion of your current headache and probably wouldve been more successful. Nuff said by me. Jack

While we may never know (though I have a pretty good idea who it was). Either way, I don't really think it is important to know who it was. This a product sold by Renderosity and the owners of the website... they are the owners of the product and are the ones responsible for handling customer issues and complaints for the product... not the rigger. While the person who rigged the figure obviously cut some corners and pretty much put this website, it's owners and the product, as well as, any possible future product at risk, ultimately the responsiblity for the product making it into the store was the fault of the owners of the product who failed to inspect the product before releasing it to the public. The character rigger has to answer to the owners of this website for this grievious error, while at the same time, Renderosity and it's owners and assigns must answer to their customers for this error and the obvious disregard of product testing and handling before it was sold in such manner. My suggestion is let the owners of Renderosity deal with the Rigger and DAZ on this issue. And, I don't think there really needs to be an investigation into this whole thing, I mean comeon Folks, the owners obviously failed to test the product and had little concern over its quality before releasing it to the unsuspecting public (even against the better judgement of the other merchants creating product for it)... NO investigation needed, just good ol common sense at the obvious priorities by the owners and a healthy dose of caution before ever buying another product from here again. Problem solved & 'nuff said. Jack

LOL... tried to warn ya bud. :o) Off to bed myself here. Jack