"...do you have ideal size and proportions?"

While that has absolutely nothing to do with the statistical average proportions of US and Europe citizens, I can say that I´m a lot closer to the current western "ideal" than both V3, M3, or the Venus of Willendorf.  :-)

And again, you can be an extreme annorexic underweight or morbidly obese, and you STILL will have an "ideal" or "average" head to body ratio if you are of a certain height.
And your arms will still end up halfway on your thighs.
And your legs will be of a certain lenght.

That´s why people can use premade clothes.
Because most of us are different, but not AS different than DAZ tries to make us believe.

Stahlratte

Sigh.

amacord, you too mix up body types with "head to body" ratios.

Yes, people have short legs, long legs, big feet, small feet, etc.

But they don´t have large heads or small heads. At least not "NORMAL" people.

The head of a (healthy) average adult MUST be of a certain size,
It´s a biological fact. If it isn´t that person is severely handicapped.

OF COURSE you can render all the microcephalic people you want. Just don´t claim that that is what MOST people look like in  reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcephaly

"..and what if i'd decide that the Venus von Willendorf is, because of some art-historical reasons, the only valid ideal? i start a thread telling people to scale their v3 to 1ft height. and then i am rude to those who disagree?"

First, you haven´t seen me rude yet.
I´m just fed up when people dismiss scientifical facts like human anatomy as something "optional".

You can of course decide to willfully ignore the facts, that´s everybodys artistic freedom, and I have absolutely no problem with that.
Just don´t pretend they don´t exist because they get in your way.

And no, you cannot decide that the Venus von Willendorf is an "Ideal", because it´s simply not up to a single person to decide something like that.

You can decide that you have a fetish for obese woman and that such a woman is "your" ideal, but "THE" ideal woman is a construct created by a large group of people who all share a common taste.

So open up any fashion magazine or watch a movie, and you´ll see "THE" ideal woman, and it very much will look like Loomis "ideal".

 Wether that "ideal" is healthy, good, right, wrong, or whatever, absolutely doesn´t matter.
That´s a completely different dicussion.

But, at least for the the US and Europe, it "IS".

And it´s also a fact that the majority of people (At least her in Europe), are a lot closer to that ideal than they are to the Venus of Willendorf.

Stahlratte

Xantor, you constantly mix up "head to body" ratio with the way a person is build.
You also ignore the fact that Loomis shows an "ideal" person, and that I stated several times that an "average" person is shorter, therefore having a smaller "head to body" ratio"

Take two persons of the same height and one might have longer legs and the other a longer abdomen instad, but "head to body" ratio will be more or less exactly the same for both, because the head of a healthy adult person MUST be of a certain size.

And a taller person will have a higher "head to body" ratio than a shorter one.

So sorry, but the charts I showed are perfectly valid for an eight heads tall person.
If you want to show an 7 heads tall person, shorten the legs and scale the head up even more.

Stahlratte

"Or in other words rather then an ortho drawing, a much better guide is to use photographs of real people for reference and use your own judgment as to what looks best in a particular scene."

Sorry, but that statement is nonsense.
Yes, sounds harsh, sorry, but I´m soo fed up with these cop outs to justify that "everthing goes".
As a scalemodeller I have to be accurate to a fraction of an inch.
A model is either accurate or not.
If it´s off, I failed.

And while people are BUILD differently (Fat, thin, muscular), their PROPORTIONS are either accurate or not, too.

What a client thinks what "looks" like a teenager or not is totally irrelevant.
The only thing important is what a REAL teenager looks like.

And if you want to portray a realistic teenager, then do your homework while you create a model of one, and not just "follow your gut".

If you want to portray reality, then you must first create a realistic model of the real world. It´s that simple.

Yes, different camera settings will deliver different results, and guess what, the same happens in real live.

A 6' 3" Vicky monster doesn´t become "average" when you use the wrong camera settings.

Your camera settings might distort V3 so much that she appears to be more normal, but everything else in your picture will be then distorted, too.

If you WANT to picture a 6'3" tall Amazon, no problem with using Vicky as is.
But if you can´t be bothered creating correct replicas of reality first, don´t pretend that your renders are "realistic" in any shape or form.

You have the artistic freedom to do what you want in your renders, so feel free to create your own Bizarro world populated with unmodified V3´s and M3´s.

But you cannot change the basic laws of anatomy  in the real world just because you or your client feel like it.

Not as long as you claim to depict the real world in your renders.

Stahlratte

@Xantor and bopperthijs:

Yes, I agree that an "average" person is more like 7 to 7 1/2 heads height.
(look at Miki in my chart. She´s just 7 1/2 heads high)

If you think that an 5'8" woman should be 7 1/2 instead of 8 heads high, simply add 4" to the height I´ve given, thus making V3 6'7" instead of 6'3".

If you rather think 5'8" in real live is 7 heads high, then just add 8" to the heights I´ve  given, so unmodified V3 would be even 6'11" in "real life".

The body to head ratios are still perfectly valid, regardless what real world size you connect with a certain head to body ratio.. Just change the real life height numbers.

But, Loomis "8 heads is ideal" ratio is still pretty much valid and universally reckognized.
In fact, as the average height has indeed shifted upwards, an 8 head high person has become even a bit "more average" and less "ideal".

Stahlratte

Are you referring to bodyshape or headsize to bodyheight ratio ?

Loomis sure has shown an "ideal" bodyshape (Wide shoulders- small hips), but the headsize to body height ratio is correct.
And that´s why he called it "Ideal proprtions".
As I said the "average" women is shorter and stockier, and has a lower head to body ratio. (6 1/2 to 7 1/2 heads high instead of eight)

But even if we say that the headsize to bodyheight ratio is set too low by Loomis, V3 would then be even more taller than she already is.

But I´m always eager to learn more, so please feel free to backup your opinion with a different chart.

Stahlratte

Ok, her come Jessi and SP3:

Out of the box and adjusted to match the Loomis head size, Jessi is a massive 6'0", while Stephanie is a "not really petite" 5'8".

Lets see what we can do with them:

I scaled Jessis legs A LOT shorter, as well as her neck.
Made her arms longer and her head larger. She ALMOST looks human now, but her strange knees and shins, as well as her hands still give her away as an evil alien Fembot (From outer space)  ;-P

SP3 is pretty all around perfect, especially her legs.
But I don´t like her overly thin neck so I still scaled the head up a weee bit and made the neck wider along the x-axis.
I´m also not that fond of her squarish hip shape, but all in all she has the best out of the box shape foor a TALL (!) young athlethic woman, while Miki represents the best "average" body type.

Posette/NEA and Judy/NeJa hold up pretty well, and with a bit of scaling and better shoulders NeJa looks pretty good.
IMO her shins need some work just like Jessi´s, but her knees are a lot better.

Jessi and V3 sure are the most problematic. Only a major overhaul or some loose fitting clothes can save Jessi.
(But to be fair, she by far has the best shoulders and I like her face)
V3 can be morphed pretty easily, but SP3 can do everything V3 can and has the more realistic bodyshape out of the box. She also bends much better.

Stahlratte

Attached Link: Shoulder and neck magnets

NEJA /Judy

Head        scale  105%
Shoulder x-scale 105%
ForeArm x-scale 105%
Shin       y-scale 95%

Posette/NEA
Shoulder  x-scale 105%
ForeArm  x-scale 105%
Abdomen y-scale 108%
Shin        y-scale 95%
Thigh       y-scale 95%

The most important thing is that all adult meshes have (more or less) the same head size, like in real life, so I would leave the body scale of your most frequently used mesh at 100%, and scale all other meshes to match.
(After you corrected their head to body proportions.)

I made a download for both Judy/NeJa´s shoulder as well as the neck magnet one needs when V3´s head is scaled up.
See attached link.

@mylemonblue: I can do Sp3, but Aiko 3 would be pointless, as she isn´t intended to be a realistic human, so their head/body ratio is way off by default.  ;-)

Stahlratte

@ ThrommArcadia: Opps, sorry !  Honest mistake !

My only excuse is that Rendo is slow as molasses for me today, and I made  about a dozend edits before I was happy with the original post so I simply forgot the nudity flag over all the wating for the side to load between previews.  :-(

Stahlratte.

Many thanks for the kind words so far.

Ok, here come Posette (Nea) and Jena.
Judy and Jena have the same body, so I didn´t include her in the test.

Scaled so that their head sizes match that of Loomis chart, Posette turns out to be 5'8" while Jena is 5'10".
Not perfect , but a lot better than V3.

Jena inherited a bit of "pinheadedness" from Judy, who inherited it from V2 which she was meant to compete with.

Here are both slightly modified:

Posette/NEA´s head was left as is, but I shortened her thighs and shins a bit. I lenghtened the abdomen, and made her arms longer. Nothing drastic, but enough to make her look a bit less "heroic".

Jena got her head scaled up to 102%, and also her thighs and shins shortened. I also added two magnets to lift her sagging shoulders a bit.) Her arms were lenghtend a bit, too.
I scaled the body down a bit so that her head again matches those of the chart and Posette/Nea.

@Ziggie: Lucy Lawless is 5'11", so even she would be dwarfed by a real world V3.

I´m not saying that V3 is "incorrect".
She is correctly proportioned  for a 6'3" tall woman.

But if you want to portray an "ideal" or even an average woman, then you cannot use her "as is".

Stahlratte

Many thanks. Both solutions work and are a great help.

I still wish there would be someting like a python script to resize joint paramerts so I could change the sizes of figure permanently.

:-)

Thanks again,

Stahlratte

Remove the fringe and rescale and relocate the buns.

Stahlratte

Hi hoppersan2000, glad you like her.

Please look at the last post on the very first page of this thread.

There is some additional info about how to transfer full body morphs with MorphManager.

Stahlratte.

First, I really don´t care what anybody finds "acceptable" or not.

I already said that to me simply the results Firefly delivers are not worth the ludicrous render times, and that includes using AO and/or any skin shaders.

I also simply deny a small minority to dictate their values to the majority.

Poser did not become what it is today because it was "advanced" or cutting edge,  but because it brought a very, very  simple and fun version of CGI to the masses.

And if it changes this direction, if it wants to become something it isn´t just because some people all of the sudden got starry eyed and started to dream big important professional dreams, then , yes then Joe and Jane Average might decide that all the fun has been sucked out by the "professionals" and just pack their things and "move on".

Not to Poser 7 or 8 or 9, but to another programm that takes their REAL  needs seriously, and doesn´t twist their arms  just to make a nice picture.

And all the vendors that now can´t be bothered spending time to create a rsr, will then have a LOT of time, because there won´t be many people left to buy their wares.

If you all are so bent on "moving on", why don´t you do yourself a favour and move on to a real professional programm ?

Then you can all show off your L33t  P0z35 2k!llZ to likeminded people and don´t have to be bothered anymore by all the lowbrow riffraff that populates the poserdom and "holds you back"

Stahlratte

If they think you're crude, go technical; if they think you're technical, go crude.

Actually, I don´t "need" to do anything, because I´m perfectly happy with the performance of the P4 renderer.

I´m also perfectly able to read tutorials so I have no problems using the material room.
I just refuse to waste my time with it because the results are marginal at best.

Why does everyone try to turn a hobby into a freaking competition, where the ultimate "win" is being able to do a "photorealistic" render ?

If I wanted to watch techno geeks and wannabe pros ripping each other for not using the "right" soft and hardware, and competing with their "skillz", I´d hang out at CGI-talk.

The problem is you all accept photorealism as the gold standard of CGI, and I simply refuse to evaluate my work by the time it needed to render or the money I sunk down in my equipment..

And even IF I would all of the sudden feel the ambition to create photorealistic renders, I definitely wouldn´t rely on a hobbyist programm.

Trying to beat the "Big Boys" with a programm like Poser is like trying to win NASCAR in a Volkswagen.
Makes a cool story for the movies, but quite unlikely to happen in the real world.

And even if for the sake of argument you manage to squeeze a big V8 engine in that VW, your cars value as a daily driver will be ruined.

Poser 4 is an dependable, economic and FUN programm.

Trying to make it compete with MAX or MAYA not only made it LESS dependable, LESS economic, but also for the overwhelming  majority of users LESS FUN.

I´m all for improvements, but a render engine that all of the sudden needs HOURS if not DAYS to render a single lousy still picture is NO IMPROVEMENT in my book.
Neither is a material room that needs a degree in mathematics to work properly.

If your goal in life is to create a photorealistic render in Poser, be my guest.
I think it´s foolish, but I really don´t care what you do with your computer and your time.
But don´t you dare try to impose your "standards" on everybody else.
Some of us are actually able to see through the hype.

Stahlratte