Quote - Amazed to see that so many think that the Poser forum at Daz is such a bad thing. :blink:

I would say It's about time we got one.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, unless it gets to the point when someone asks a question in the commons about some other program and poser, and the post is slammed into the poser forum as not belonging on the commons.  In that case, the commons is no longer a commons, althought what it would be, I wouldn't know.

I don't spend a lot on line, don't make many purchases, and while I mean no insult to the creators, there has been very little released that I have any interest in.  Clothing, I need male clothing, clothing for the milkids, not so much for kids4 or no need for more for V4 or V3.  More is always welcome, but when out of say the last ten releases, none of them have had any interest for me, I'm wasting time looking at what's offered.  I find the clothing from PoserWorld to be more in line with what I'm looking for, and also realize this does not apply to anyone else, although there may be others with similar interests.

Not that it's DAZ or Rendo or anyone else, it's a trend going in the wrong direction as far as holding my interest goes.  I really haven't paid much attention to know if there's the start of an exodus from the DAZ forums, so I can't comment on that.  I have noticed a far heavier hand from the moderators, for whatever reason, I don't know, none of my business. 

That they've started a "Poser only" forum, I'm neutral, it's there, but if everything poser is going to be shuttled there, it's just a form of segregation.  I'll watch it, but that doesn't mean my posting won't continue to decrease as they have in the last weeks..

Both here and at the DAZ forums, the same things are being discussed, but with slightly different results.  Here, warnings that things might be getting out of hand, DAZ, another locked thread.  Impossible to really tell if it was getting too heated, or if it was starting to grate on a raw nerve because it addressed points that DAZ really would rather not discuss. 

One point that I, and many others have brought out, DS has no documentation.  Depending on a wiki or YouTube and the users to do what should have been done internally and before the program was released is just passing the buck.  Like saying "Okay, those that have stumbled across the fumble pile and figured it out can tell you, so we don't have to."  Fine for freeware, but when DS4pro and PP2012 are only a few dollars apart, totally unacceptable. 

Granted, DAZ is probably tired of hearing the same old complaints, which brings up the question of why aren't those matters being addressed?  There are problems with installers, there are problems with some instabilities in the program which I can understand DAZ can't look inside every computer and know the exact configuration it has to work with. 

One area  of particular interest and irritation, dynamic cloth, which I know they're probably tired of hearing about.  That doesn't negate the fact that a single vendor source of dynamic cloth is totally unacceptable. 

Another area, a bug fix isn't just a bug fix, it's a complete new version, and the necessity to relearn where the different functions are hidden this time.

Genesis shows some capability, but still gives me the impression it was rushed to release before it was really ready to be released.  As it comes, doing much beyond a classic  T pose and letting it go at that is going to require healthy injections of the coin of the realm.  More expensive than the Gen 4 figures, and still with problems that haven't, and in my guess, probably won't be addressed.  Third parties will be doing this.  Again, unacceptable. 

Poser has come a long way since P5, when I got started with it.  P5 wouldn't even run without the updates.  PP2012 seems to be stable, I haven't crashed it yet, not that I haven't tried.  It also isn't a new version three or four times a year, but more like every couple of years, which is fine.  It tells me the changes are thought out, the bugs looked at and most caught before it's released.  Nobody should have to point at the contrast.

Quote - I just hope there are enough Poser users left to make it worthwhile.  

I would guess there are a goodly number of us still walking, and in reality, not really caring much about the Genesis/V5 or whatever.  Just the tone of "Obsoletes all older models" that seems to be the predominant opinion coming from the fans of said characters can be very irritating.  It obsoletes nothing except any need for itself.  Maybe someday it will be vialble and desirable, but in this stage, it is about the same as trying to get good results from the P4 people.  It can be done, but Jessie is easier to work with.

Trying to put things civilly now. 

Genesis and V5 won't work in poser, I really don't care.

Miki3 won't work in DS, also, I don't care.  I don't have either of them and probably won't.

I may sound hostile to DAZ, but in reality, I'm not.  I am disgusted that DS is known, as well as Cararra, for lack of documentation. 

A lot of the other arguments, like the lack of "morph follower" in Poser, okay, so instead, I use dynamic cloth to get the same result.  A lot of dynamic cloth can be used between different figures with little or no tweaking needed.

Characters, currently I'm on the way to making Kate into something in the sixteen to eighteen year old bracket, not hard, and the only thing I'm using is Poser.  (Not hard, but time consuming, very time consuming.)

Lousy mesh that doesn't bend right, I don't care much either.  I clothe almost everone, so how their butt bends, big deal.  I'll never see the tearing and compression. 

So most of the arguments are set aside except what am I comfortable working with.  In reality, that's the only question that counts for anything.  Were there documentation available for DS4 that I could even print a few pertinent pages of to work with, I may be tempted to give it a try.  Without it, well, I tried, I failed, and frustration is not a good thing. 

There are a lot of locked threads in the DAZ commons on the same subject, reason given is usually that they've turned into DAZ vs Poser flamefests.  The majority of the DAZ users think poser should change to accommodate the genesis figure, okay, maybe some change should be made.  But mention that the first change that should be made is DAZ stop changing the interface with each new version, or that DAZ doesn't have updates, they only have new versions, and it's going to be locked. 

I really don't care, Randall, the first version of DS4, I could at least navigate the interface, but it wasn't a week before that changed, yet again.  At the insistense of the DAZ only users, and no regard to those that can't get their heads around the ever changing incomprehensible.  When the serial for that version expired, "so sad, too bad", learn the latest incarnation of the incomprehensible, and oh, by the way, no manual. 

When you're trying to attract users from another program, you're going to get a lot of comparisons between the two, and usually not in a complimentary manner.  When the full version prices of the two, say, DS4Pro and PP2012 are only a few dollars apart, to gain new users, you have to offer something more than a "New!  Improved!  Obsoletes all older!" to gain anything.  Like a manual that's somewhat readable and understandable.  'NUff said.

Attached Link: http://www.purplus.net/cad3d.html

Quote - It needs to be said that for every Poser user who has trouble using DAZ Studio, says it's interface is awful or calls it a "Yugo", there is a Studio user that has no problem creating art using the software.

Nor did I say there wasn't.  But, coming from the world of metalwork, where there are standards, and yes, more than a hundred years old and still in use, change for the sake of change is not good.  For those that can get along with the incomprehensible that changes often, fly with it.  For those that can't, and I'm one of them, all I can do is start looking for an alternative to DAZ figures, assuming I'll ever exhaust the possibilities of what I already have and will continue to use.  To me, the simplest and most straightforward interface in modeling programs is Wings3d, which I use a lot.  The other one I use, not really a modeler, is Povray.  Yet for both, there are some that I've read complaining about the interface.  Oh, really!  Right click, read the menu, and pick your action,  This is terribly complex, you understand.  (Full sarcsm mode off)

My whole point is that there are many changes that need to be done before DAZ will be on the same level as poser.  If the new head man sees that it is done, then for the good.  If not, for the status quo, going nowhere in real progress.

And just for you,

D.

Okay, DAZ changed the head whatever.  But, where there will be some changes made is still an open question.  Genesis came at a bad time, when Poser was working on the weight mapped figures, proceeding ahead on their own path which didn't correspond with DAZ.  And that's normal.

Not so much if DAZ and Poser users will divide sharply and completely, that probably won't happen.  What also won't happen is a Gen 4 version of the milkids, which may not be too far from understandable, support for the kids is less than clothes for the guys.  Nor will we have a Gen 4 David, which I use rarely, but occasionally.

The biggest gripe for me is about the time I finally learn to navigate the nightmare interface of DS, out comes a new "update", which is not an update, but a new version.  It may contain little but a couple of bug fixes, and yet another incomprehensible interface.  The first release of DS4 was the first I was able to do anything with, find my way around the interface, but within a month, the cry and hue of the DS users convinced DAZ to change it, several times since, and I haven't bothered to try it again.  It's almost like DS was in perpetual alpha stages, more work to try to keep up with than it's worth to me.  Repeat, to me.

Genesis is about one half step from useless in Poser, and Miki 3 can't be used in DS, touche.  Miki might not be the best figure ever put out, I don't use her, don't know, but I don't use oriental figures to begin with.  Aiko, have her, never used her, same with The Girl, not into that.  I do use the older poser figures, I use V3 some, V4 less.  Mike 3 a bit, Mike 4 less.  James isn't bad, Don is still usable, but more work.  Judy, I still use.  None of these figures are perfect, and V 5 won't be either.  There are some times I wish the poser figures bent better, but most of the time, they're under dynamic cloth and the real faults aren't seen.  Genesis wouldn't be one bit better for those uses. 

I sometimes think the support for the older figures will be pulled, but I have a lot already, I don't really see the need for nine tenths of what's being released.  Poserworld lifer here, they have a lot of support for a lot of figures.  How long that will continue, I have no idea.  Like the Gen 1 and 2 figures, there will come the day when a lot of content for 3 and 4 will be pulled from the stores, more or less forcing the end of them.  Such is the way of progress. 

DS isn't as costly as Poser, but also isn't as versatile, with the things it lacks.  as it stands now, someone watching Purplus would have seen PP2010 there for less than fifty bucks over the last weekend, less than DS4 standard.  The dynamic cloth in DS is available from one source as of now, and isn't compatible with Poser dynamics.  Nor will DS use Poser cloth, touche again.  There is no dynamic hair for DS, so the reason it's not as expensive isn't hard to see. 

Poser isn't the Rolls Royce of figure manipulation, it's probably a high end Chevy.   But with the state of DAZ right now, DS is the Yugo.  If they straighten out what's wrong with the program, stabilize the interface, then concentrate on the new figures, the change will have had some effect to the good.  If not, then it's just more of the same old same old.

IE would get my vote for the cause.  I had to download a more current version in my box beforre the library would work, it doesn't like IE6.  Not sure which version I put in, as I don't use IE and hate having to include it to run the program.

Quote - "I just think that the free part of Studio is just irrelevant given all the money - or time - you need to spend before getting anything decent out of it"

Well "decent" is a relative term
and Free is always relevant to get new customers "in the Door" so to speak
once inside they will decide how much "paid extras they wan to buy based on their consumer Discipline and your marketing prowess
Clearly DAZ has mastered the "marketing prowess" part

The regular  year round price of poser 9 will require  $250. before you can even install "Antonia" or whomever and start scrounging& waiting for some decent content with variety.
and that "3 GIGS" of poser content is not for "Antonia" and one look at Alyson & Ryan and IMHO any new customer wont care about the 3 GIGs of Content or SSS or IDL etc.

Cheers

I've been playing more with the Poser figures lately, and find several truths.  The first is, and I don't try to do nudes, that I'm clothing them, with dynamic cloth.  What the figure looks like under the cloth becomes irrelevant.  If I don't like the face, there's the face room.  Dynamic hair, I don't use much, but there have been times.  POser pro 2012 if anyone's interested in which version, which really doesn't matter that much here.  IDL, not something to snark at, it didn't take me too long to figure out that can make one tremendous difference in a render, especially considering I normally use only one point light source.  SSS, sometimes, and sometimes not.  It's there, it works, it can make a difference in some renders. 

Then there's an interface I can get along with, and it doesn't change that much from version to version, I'm pretty comfortable with it. 

But I think if there were any external factors in the change of heads, I would hope that one of them would be the DS interface has not been the same on any two consecutive releases, or, confusion reign supreme.  There are some features of the Genesis that could be interesting, but after playing with it for a little, the shortcomings become evident. 

No, Poser isn't free, but it is well supported, and most of what in DS is an additional module is included in the base Poser.  Dress the figures, work on the faces, most arguments against them disappear.  If the new head of DAZ changes that to make it more of an integrated program, DS has a chance of becoming a viable project.  As it is, sorry, it isn't yet.

Add reflections, refraction, a lot of glass and water, IDL, single point liight, 3 bounces, I7 at 3.06GHZ and I'm looking at 20 minutes or thereabout.

Oh, and add about 70 megs for some huge texture maps probably isn't helping.

http://www.purplus.net/smmipopro20.html

Try this if it's not too much.

http://www.purplus.net/smmipopro20.html

Might want to look at this too.  Good price.

http://www.purplus.net/poser8.html