No offense taken. I suspect you don't have much experience with Vue renders. I suppose I had the same response when I first heard Terragen renders can take over a week. Even so, I found out later, it really depends on the TG scene and settings. Some TG renders are done in minutes, just as is the case with Vue.

Depending on scene and settings, if you use radiosity, you can set it up to not have to calculate radiosity for each render, thus saving considerable time. Also, spectral 2 clouds take longer to render than spectral clouds which take longer to render than 'regular' clouds. Different levels of anti-aliasing as well as other settings can affect render times significantly.

Even so, if you use the five render licenses which come with Vue, and a typical frame renders in an hour, it will render in 12 minutes on your renderfarm. Not too bad.

Quote - An hour to render?
Woah...
I am not impressed at all.
We do animations, at an hour a frame, it would take forever to get them rendered.

David,
Surely since you're in the professional business of rendering animations you already know:

1. Frame rendertimes depend on what you're rendering, what the output resolution is, what the render settings are, what the speed of the computer, how many computers you have on your network renderfarm and how soon the client needs the product. 

2. Then there are a number of paid for renderfarm services. The Ranch (www.ranchcomputing.com) is one that comes to mind. Frederic there does an excellent job of providing a very easy to use and reasonably priced online render service for Vue products. For instance, a Vue 7 animation which would take an entire week (7 days x 24 hours) on a Core 2 Extreme QX6850 (64-bit quad-core), would be rendered in around 2 hours on the RANCH.

3. And you probably know many Disney movies and commercial animations can take an hour a frame.

4. Typically, there are ways to shorten render times, as there are ways to increase them. It's all in the trade-offs one is willing to make, and one's understanding of how the program works.

Hope this helps,
C

Quote - The major point of this thread wasnt to seak solutions to the bugs, it was  to bring to light how little e-on does to fix them.

I'm sorry for your negative experience.

Quote - The most recent post in blog has a link to a free video (unfortunately a 54MB zipped file) in which there is a most detailed tutorial I have ever saw for Vue about creating a desert scene; also older posts contain extremely useful information (the one I found most fascinating is creating lighting using white off-image objects and global radiosity, just like in a photo studio).

Thank you, Alex, for that link. It's a super blog.

 Pnina,

I am not a Vue programmer, so I cannot fix your bugs directly. I know you know this, but I say it to hopefully point out while I can't fix the bugs, I can help you with possible explanations and workarounds, along with verifying if they are also issues on PCs.

That is what my post regarding your bugs was intended to provide.

I believe I have tried to help and make clear each of your bugs and feature requests. I have added my own opinions where I believe are warranted.

Your definition of 'show-stopper' and mine differ. Typically, when managing a bug database for a software product, show-stoppers are considered 'blocker' bugs which completely prevent the accomplishment of any sort of task and have no known workarounds. It is not meant as a judgement to your perceived bug severity, but more as an absolute definition. I apologize, I should have used the word "blocker."

best,
Chipp

PS, Yes, the boxes are indeed CSG, as a boolean operation will verify. Unlike some solid modelers, Vue correctly can convert them to inside views, but it is not recommended, especially when trying to render accurate interiors with zero wall-thickness. I hope this helps.

Yes, I too hate that auto-exposure is on by default.

David,

I did not call you a hater.

Did you do as I ask and check out CobraEye's last 50 or 60 posts? 
Did you do the same for alexcoppo?

Please do not confuse regular complaints with someone who has a clear agenda to put down e-on and Vue every chance they have.

Quote - I think it's silly to label anyone who voices their opinions against e-on as "Vue haters".

Patrick, why don't you check out the last 50 or 60 posts of those particular guys here in the Vue forum. Try and find something they say nice about Vue. Then come to your own conclusion- I've already come to mine. 

Quote - It's pretty clear to me e-on has done things to deserve being called upon lately. Their prices have been going way up, their bugs and issues that Vue has keep happening, their support is consistently receiving bad comments

Yes, there are a few who complain about the things you mention. There also are many who are using Vue with spectacular results. Just because there are a few loud complainers, doesn't mean the program doesn't work for everyone. Furthermore, many of us have had support issues resolved in a polite and timely manner. I'm sorry you have had such disappointing results with Vue.

Everytime a new version of Vue comes out, the signal to noise ratio of the Vue complainers goes way up. It's just the way it is. A number of great artists and fine community contributors no longer spend any time here at the Vue Renderosity forums for just this reason. Certainly our loss, not theirs.

 Jacob,

Just wondering why you render to TIFF? Is it for the 16-bit format? Do you find it significantly better than BMP or other lossless format. Just curious.

OK, Let's take a look at these bugs one by one.

Quote - 1.Populate with objects which have the material 'volume shaded fuzz' causes crash  1233706551  Fixed

1. Eco's cleared randomly on unrelated 'undo' 1233114584 Fixed
2. Cloud settings (hide) not saved. 1235275127   Fixed
3. Render disappears after interrupt  1235768443     Fixed

All fixed by e-on for you. Good for them. Good for you.

Quote -  5.Revert to instances: 1232902464 
I can convert eco instances to objects and manipulate them. I should be able to revert back to instances, as I could in v6i, but this option disappered from the popup menue.  I reported this on 01/25, more than 3 months ago. I was told  on  01/27 that “This issue has been fixed and will be available in a future update.” It wasnt yet. Now I was told 'it was fixed but wont be available till final release.” Why? when would that be? isnt 3 months long enough to wait for something supposedly fixed already?

Sounds like a real bug. I don't know much about this one as I've actually never had the case to use this feature. What exactly are you trying to do? Perhaps I can help with a work around in the meantime.

  > Quote -  6.Saving vob, clicking OK before thumbnail completed render causes crash 1235436940 (& 1233538976 &1233853492, took me a bit to figure out what causes the crashes) )  Still crashed on 4/27 -crash report 1240856555.

Not a bug in the latest Vue Pioneer -> Complete on my systems (all PCs). Can't vouch for Macs. If you need a wordaround, let me know and I can suggest a sure fire way to keep from crashing ;-)

  > Quote -  7.Dislexia, Characters/digits typed in the wrong order: 1233423397

When I use a numeric/character fields (rather than slides/gizmo etc) the digits or characters I type in appear in the wrong order. E.g. I type in 91 it appears as 19. (I am absolutely a 100% sure it isnt me who is typing it in the wrong order). The responses I got were “As we releaes updates, we continue to work on the Mac interface.” and “The developers are aware of the issue and are working on it. ” 

Certainly not a problem on PC Pioneer thru Complete. I can see why this can be frustrating. I suspect it has to do with something called 'focus' for the field you are typing into. I might suggest as a interim solution typing more slowly between the first and second digit in a field. Though frankly I'm not at all familiar with this bug.
 

Quote - 8.Drop/smart drop (right/left click) 1233526410
Sometimes when I click for regular drop it executes a smart drop.  E-on(and some mac users on this forum) claim they  cant reproduce it, but if the developers are any good they should still have a clue were to look for an intermitent bug, that still occurs for me.

If you can't provide a reliable recipe then there's an excellent chance not only can they not produce it, but I suspect they'll instead focus on those bugs they know how to find. I might suggest you try the command-key sequence or menu item and see if it still misperforms. If not, then there's your workaround.

Quote - 9.Number overflow displayed(on render) -1233424438 & 1236646691
I get a huge number(19 digits) in the field that usually shows the number of objects/lights.The responses I got ranged from “ This indeed seems to be a display glitch, which shouldn't affect anything in your scene” to “This is a representation of the zoom feature.” (not true, it is not the same field, the zoom field is fine).

I have seen this one on occasion, but I don't remember how I got there. In anycase, for me, this is not a huge issue as I typically watch the resource level more than polygons. I seem to remember Walther mentioning something about that number is now tied to OpenGL polys and not scene polys. This one's certainly not a show stopper.

Quote - 10.Missing features – scale render, size in real units 1235082940
A.  There is no 'display true object dimensions' in the size section of the world browser.
The displayed units in the size section appear to be the internal units, not the real world units.
The manual of v6inf says "The Show actual object sizes ( ) is a toggle button that will display the real size of the object when selected (otherwise, internal dimensions will be displayed instead – usually not very useful, but provided for compatibility with previous versions)." I can understand if you dont want to keep this toggle, but if you admit yourself that the internal units are useless, why did you leave those units rather than the real units - meters yards etc.?
Having the size displayed in real world units and the ability to enter these values numerically are of extreme importance to me. It has implications in many instances. just as an example - if I use the new water, deciding on the value for average depth of foam depends on the size (and position) of the object. It just makes no sense otherwise.
I dont know if v7inf displays real world units for the size, but it would make no sense to have that as a feature available only to pros. EVERYONE needs sensible and consistent units.

Internal units have been with Vue since early on. In fact, only in the recent versions of Infinite have real units also been supported. Internal units are extremely important for many functions, including Python scripts and proper image mapping. I'm sure you are aware of the conversion factors. If not, they are very easy to figure out, just go into the Preferences, change the display units to your preferred one, then object's centers are shown in correct display units (in, feet, meters, etc.). You can do the math if you like. While not a bug, I suspect this should be implemented soon.

Quote - B Resizing a rendered image. In vue 6 inf, on the top of the render- display/screen, the first 2 buttons are + and - for zooming in and out. These dont exist in the v7complete version. I did not see this mentioned in the comparison chart. It is not a problem I cant overcome - if it is a final image I read it into an image viewing/editing program and I can change the size there. However I use it a lot for viewing trial renders. Those are usually small (for quicker renders) and I enlarge them to see more details, even if the quality isnt good. It seriously disturbs my work flaw.

Certainly not a show stopper.

Quote - 11. No undo after align:  1235275732
I use the align command (left bar) to align two objects. I try an undo (edit command, top menu) the align isnt listed as the last command. The operation listed for the undo is the operation before the align.
(and to make matters worse, there isnt even a cancel)

I appears you're just using this control incorrectly. You can click on any of the radio buttons to see in the 4 views what the alignment choice will do. If you don't like it, just click the 'none' radio button on the bottom of the column for the alignment you previous clicked on. This will effectively 'UNDO' your changes and all will go back to normal. You can use the close box on the upper right of the palette to close it.

Just like other programs, there are a number of things which can't be 'undone' in this program. Try saving a vob, then undoing-- you can't. The same is true for MS Word-- you can't save a program then undo. Different programs implement different levels of undo. I believe Vue satisfies the need for preview and undo in the palette on this one. Of course, they could implement another level of undo, but IMO it is no big deal.

Quote - 12. Glowing water: 1237859408
I opened a new (default) scene. Added a box and put the camera inside. The little render preview window shows a black rectangle as there is no light source in the box. I added a water plane. Now I can see in the render preview a light blue surface as though there is a light source. If I edit the water material (not the foam layer), in the transparency tab the 'fading out' and 'turn reflective with angle' are set to 30. If I turn the 'fading out' to 0 , it looks like the light source disappeared and the preview window is completely black again. Doesnt that mean that the  water turns luminous(glowing?) not only reflective?Note - This only happens if the 'auto exposure' is on. However it does not happen for other objects instead of the water plane. For example if I have the ground plane above the wtaer plane the scene is completely black whether or not 'auto exposure' is on or off. 

There are a couple of issues of concern with this bug report. First, the geometry you are creating is a constructive solid geometry (CSG) box with zero wall thickness, pretty much an impossible rendering exercise from the start. Those who render closed interiors are aware radiosity effects need wall thickness in order to render correctly.

Secondly, you need to understand what auto-exposure does. It's a leveling algorithm applied to maximize the contrast and overall level a histogram of the image. This has the effect of 'correcting' poor lighting in renders, which is good for newcomers as lighting is one of the harder things to master in any 3d app.

Sometimes, it provides a very nice addition to the render. Other times it makes no sense of a render. As others have stated earlier, a person may find working without this feature turned on will make them better at lighting scenes. I know I rarely use it. ArtPearl, if you can describe the type of picture you're looking for, I can probably provide you a scene file which demonstrates best how to set it up.

I understand you say you have multiple agendas for posting your bug list. My answers are based on my desire to either provide workarounds, or point out misconceptions. I hope those who read your posts continue further to see what some of us have to say about workarounds and the relative severity of the above bugs.

My own view, is that you certainly have a couple bugs above which may make things a bit more difficult-- but I personally didn't see one show stopper. Furthermore, for anyone else reading this far, I find if you really want a bug fixed, provide a dead simple recipe for displaying it (Mostly ArtPearl did this). Also, be aware most bug databases have priorities assigned to bugs like:

crash, block, major, minor, tweak, suggestion, feature.

If you consistently submit 'minor' or 'tweak' category bugs, you may find they don't get fixed as fast as those which are crash or blocker bugs. Also, if an existing workaround is known, the bugs priority might not be as high.

 CobraEye,

I stopped taking seriously anything you or alexcoppo have to say a very long time ago. You've both shown yourself to be long time haters of e-on and Vue, so your opinions are always viewed in a skeptical light.

 If you look at the bottom of this page:
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/about/newsletter/

You will see:

*The cost of the upgrade to the next version of Vue will be the same
whether you upgrade from Vue 7 or Vue 7.5.

Quote -  And you will get the full version 8 when it comes out for free:-
'Free upgrades during the subscription period, including free upgrades to all .5 and full versions,"

Esther, that is true only if Vue 8 is released within the term of your maintenance agreement. IOW, if you purchase a maintenance agreement now, and it's renew date (the date you originally purchased xStream--NOT the date of purchase of the maintenance agreement) is 6 months from now, then if Vue 8 has not been released between now and then you will not get an upgrade to it. You must then purchase another maintenance agreement when this one expires. Think of a maintenance agreement more like a subscription. My guess is Vue 8 would not be out by next October, though I certainly could be wrong.

What e-on is saying is you do not have to purchase Vue 7.5 to be eligible for the same upgrade pricing to 8.0. IOW, folks without a maintenance agreement who currently own Vue 7.0 will pay the same to upgrade to 8.0 as those with 7.5.

And those with a current maintenance agreement will pay nothing to update to 8.0

Esther,

What you will need is Standard Maintenance for Vue 7 xStream which goes for $595.

Also, it will only last for a year from when you purchased Vue 7 xStream, not when you purchase the plan-- so be sure you know you want the features in 7.5 before purchasing it as it is expensive.

 Steven,

You really need to face the fact, you are NOT e-on's targeted customer for their Professional line which includes Infinite. By your own admission, you are a hobbyist. 

More than a year and a half ago, I had a discussion with an e-on person and they disclosed to me they were losing sales because they did not have a maintenance plan in place. It's clear to me (perhaps not to you) they have since set up two different product lines: the Professional line and the Artist product line.

If you want to own a professional line product, then prepare to pay for it like the professionals have to. Or else, consider staying with the Artist line. I know you are in a situation where you cannot afford to commit to continued expenses associated with the Pro line. I understand you feel angry, betrayed, and frustrated. Truthfully, that is the way it is now in all 3D programs. They all have subscription plans where it's less expensive to purchase a maintenance agreement than pay out of pocket for each upgrade. That's just how it is. You don't have to like, or accept it. But you won't change it.

Of course, I too see the complaining in other forums-- most of it is from from the same audience-- the hobbyists. That is no surprise to me.

Steven, thanks again for your tutorials and support on this forum. You've always been a great contributor and solid citizen, and it is because of your consistent and helpful attitude I continue to spend time replying to you.

I hope things do work out for you and you continue to support this community as you would be sorely missed in all the forums you so generously participate.

-Chipp

Quote - The vast majority of Vue users are not studios, and as I noted, what damn near killed a lot of the big apps was them getting too arrogant and greedy so they priced themselves out of the reach of anything but studios and pirates...which wrecked their legit user base.

While I don't know if the vast majority of Vue users are not studios, an even more important question is where does the vast majority of the sales revenue come from? I doubt either you or I know the answer to that one.

Steven, you've always been such a great supporter of this community. It's clear you're upset. But, I'm not sure you won't calm down once you realize there's no penalty for not upgrading now, and you can get Vue 8 for the same price. 

As Bruno said, this is an upgrade for the studios-- the professionals. It's not meant to be something for the hobbyists, and that's one reason it's marked 7.5 and not 8-- so as to not make you feel like you need to have it. That should be clear not only with it's focus on maintenance agreements, but also with e-on's generous consideration that if you don't upgrade now, no worries, you can upgrade to 8.0 for the same fee.