gohanf22 posted at 8:46 AM Sat, 19 October 2024 - #4490520

Reason why they are going this route is the SANE DAZ users are sick of the direction they are going with DAZ so guess what they resort to, to getting their DAZ assets:  PIRATES LIFE!  This is why they are doing it cause people are sick and tired forking out money to companies that don't give two Fs about their customers.  Pirating is becoming a norm and as long as these companies keep catering to the Weird ones, our wallets will remain closed.  I hear some vendors are already leaving Daz and going to places like Renderhub to start selling in hoping to gain any sort of income.  Get woke, go broke, and you can't change my mind Gen 9 was not woke.  Gen was a disaster and gen 2, 3 and 8 were great.  Why go back to the very thing that was a disaster? Answer: to cater to the weirdos.  Screw daz.

Saddly...that is it.
If customers keep feeling unheard, that they are not valued, they will stop spending money. Note, I am not saying they will stop the "hobby". They will seek other venues to get their items. And in the bigger scheme of it, it will tbe the artists working to make those products that will suffer.

I do know of artists that have either left daz for places like renderhub or started their own store. Which I am happy to support. It means more of my money is going directly to the artists.

Razor42 posted at 3:45 AM Sat, 19 October 2024 - #4490514

@DarkElegance

I'm not saying you shouldn't have frustrations, nor even complaints I'm only asking is this the appropriate forum to be airing your grievances?  Is what's happening here in any way constructive?

Support can be a delicate balancing act with many factors involved, some issues can be solved easily while others tend to be much more involved. Anyway, doesn't Daz 3d offer a 30 money back guarantee on all items? You could also try the forums which tend to offer a lot of help when it comes to isolating issues, which could see a patch pushed through to correct a problem. I've noticed what does tend to be fixed is an item that many people have found issue with as oppose to a single issue reported by 1 user which is sometimes hard to pin down in support. Having sold here at renderosity I have experienced how 1 user with a product issue, that may not even relate to the specific product itself, can soak up a whole bundle of hours. The amount of hours I spent here explaining the installation process for DS products to users who picked up an item on sale for a few dollars and couldn't "Get it to work" is insane. So forgive me if I'm a little sympathetic to Daz 3D's position with support. I also have my share of frustrations with the industry from aspects of AI implementations to piracy, but that's an entirely different subject.

I'm not defending poor support, nor trying to admonish you at all. I am just tired of seeing this forum used as a vent when someone has a had a bad Daz 3D experience and feels this is their way at getting back, decrying the evil of the empire apparent. I used to enjoy coming here and offering support to users of Daz Studio. TBH not really anymore, I don't really have the time nor the patience to read vents and rants from a very vocal small amount of peeps, most of them just wanting a pot shot at Daz 3D to try to even some score. So the result is I just don't visit here much, and it's probably the same with many others. So all you end up with is less people to offer help or support.

Do you really think Daz 3D staff are poring over this forums saying "Good Point... Somebody take a note of this"?

But hey feel free to have it, Rottenham just blocked me and carried right on.😏 

I can understand your stance.

Yes, they say they offer that “30 day money back”, and I did bring it up, in the tech forum. That was how I found out about the issue I was reporting…had been reported for a while. Apparently since 2018.
I have, requested the money back. Nothing. No reply, no acknowledgment, I even made the request in the ticket.
The forum, was how I found out that it was a “known issue”, so then why was it still for sale? 2018? And no one fixed it, removed it, flagged it?
That is not a customer failure. That is a Daz failure.
Not just to me, but to every customer that has clearly reported it.

As for venue of posting…
I have, posted to the tech forum. Repeatedly, with screenshots.
I have gotten nowhere. I have opened tickets. And so noted, at least two, are over a year old. I go in, kind of do the “hey can someone please look at this or at the very least give me my money back” thing…and get no response at all. Nothing.
Cue, the utter frustration and annoyance at the entire situation. I sit here seeing them make a genAI(dont get me started), I see now this premium service…and that was the “you have to be kidding me” moment. They do not respond, or even take care of support issues(btw, I know many whose tickets are still open for as long or longer than mine) But then expect customers to throw more money at them.
That, is why the utter, “Up to my back teeth” frustration and annoyance.
If they were up on their support, if they were listening to customers valid complaints…I probably would be one of the ones going “hmm maybe” but knowing the issues I have reported, with proof, gets ignored. Reading other customers are getting the same treatment….To put it kindly, “Heck no”

As for this forum...
That is easy to explain.
Daz does not allow even the slightest, mildest, negative comments of their site/store/staff. As noted, it's a “hard hammer down” situation. Posts get removed, customers, warned or moderated, etc. Heck, even if they “feel” your post “may” be seen negative…they will remove it. Cue part 2, the utter frustration. And it is that, its frustration of not being heard, Not getting help, That seriously erodes a customer base. I do not hate daz. If I did, I wouldn't still purchase now and then. I dislike their lack of care for their customers. That is something, anyone in retail, customer service, etc...knows can be fixed. But it takes a company the willingness to listen to do that.
As they cant post at daz, where else are they supposed to go?
As for the staff reading our posts?
That is on them what they take from it.
Smart companies, will watch where customers complain(such as Trustpilot, Glassdoor, etc) and even if it is not out in the open, make changes.
(btw that is not “inferred” that is out right saying, daz would be wise to start listening to the customers)

No, I am not going to block you. You have made valid points. You have brought to the forum that “pause and think” moment.

(Lets leave genAI for a side forum, I have enough of a debate list on that from other sites. And let's just not bring up the piracy. Its one reason I am adamant about trying to get valid stores to actually listen to customers. Because the ultimate losers will be the artists making the content they sell. People will get sick of trying to get help...and instead of purchasing feeling it's wasted money, will start seeking out those sites.)

SydneyInPeril posted at 4:24 PM Fri, 18 October 2024 - #4490482

darken666 posted at 4:03 PM Fri, 18 October 2024 - #4490477

At this point I wouldn't put it past them to have a timebomb coded in 4.23 if not earlier versions so if you don't update each time there's a new release your program starts falling apart and when it eventually becomes subscription only, anyone who doesn't keep really old versions of Studio on hand will end up either subscribing or not being able to use their content anymore.

I have DAZStudio blocked at the firewall, I have ever since I heard about the AI garbage. I canNOT trust AI to be used for good when it comes to artists.

They tried moving to subscription content when they released the Connect DRM, but the backlash was too much then. Now they're trying again.

Yeah, I kinda missed that (I either wasn't paying attention, or I was using Poser).

 A manager I had once told me about “customer surveys” where it may say "40% of our customers love it!"…while leaving out the percentage of customer that didnt.
Its implied acceptance/approval. It's not “wrong”. It's just presenting the percentage of acceptance.

As for AI…at least here in the UK/EU we are getting some hope. That companies(including companies doing business with the UK/EU) will have to offer the "opt out" option(Like they forced META to do).
So artists will have the ability to opt out of getting their work mined/harvested.

The down side, as noted by many trying to get regulation…that means artists have to hunt down companies/sites that may be mining their work and “opt out”(just had to opt-out on LinkedIn)
There is progress for artists…just slow and hard-earned.
This would mean that even Daz…would have to abide that if they continue to cater to customers in the UK/EU

Just like Meta did, just like LinkedIn did...

As for Daz doing an "Adobe"
Would anyone wish to make bets?

The thing with adobe, is there are free and low-cost options...Daz was that low cost/free option other than say blender(and by the time you dress that out with the bells and whistles…not so free. But check out humblebundles...from time to time they do blender and unreal packages that are a steal! Never mind other software and RPG sets)

darken666 posted at 8:34 PM Thu, 17 October 2024 - #4490440

It keeps getting worse. The subscription is integrated in the base Studio program such that at least one QOL feature is subscription only even if you don't load any of the Premier plugins or content. And with all plugins needing to be redone for version 5, odds are they'll claim the software is so different that anything more than starting it will be subscription only. Looks like the free stuff they're tossing around is just to distract people and placate them so they won't tell DAZ where they can stick the subscription for Daz 5.0. Best make backups of your 4.22 installer. I wouldn't trust any version past that to come without something that kills older versions remotely when the next version is released so you're forced to update.

"We see there is a new update to Daz Studio, update now to continue using the program."

UGH....Not updating.
I am willing to put money on the table, they will keep “silently” strong-arming customers till they have to use the premier.

darken666 posted at 5:39 PM Wed, 16 October 2024 - #4490413

I was just saying lapse, which could be for a number of reasons, most likely a serious change in finances, funny how you had to come and try to make it sound like I was talking about technical/account issues.

I'd expect cases of technical/account issues on Daz's part would get the content they had before. But what happens to the user that falls ill for an extended period, or loses their job, or heck, just has to drop a month to cover a sudden car repair expense?

Very good point.

As most of my income is "freelance", I tend to tuck money away. This means paying for a year when I have the funds spare, is ideal.
The market for many freelance jobs fluctuates. A twitch streamer, may grow bored or lose their tech and cant stream...loss of that income for a month? monthS?
A client suddenly stops buying their almost monthly OC request...
Heck even 9-5 jobs are not perfect.
And lets not talk about health...
A set price, with offers a couple of times a year...great! But strong-arming customers into monthly...that is more expensive?
Nah

Razor42 posted at 7:49 PM Tue, 15 October 2024 - #4490368

Honesty this thread had moved beyond realistic requests for technical information quite a while ago. And is well on its way to becoming a dumpster fire.

As is this one: DAZ moderators are censoring ANY MENTION of g9 to g8 morph conversion

I offered technical help in this forum for years but found the weight of negativity allowed to thrive here made it almost impossible to positively contribute. 

Some may say the Daz 3D forum is over moderated, others may say some forums are under moderated...

I am not admonishing anyone. Nor is a request to keep the tone here as constructive and civil "telling people how to behave". As far as "Not very professional either." I'm honestly not sure where you are going with that?

Just so you know where I am coming from. Here is an example of a thread here from a few years ago (One of many with a similar slant. Some far worse.)

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2973864/genesis-9-announcement

Here is an example of a thread with myself offering technical help here (One of hundreds of threads over the years):

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2986584/hands#msg4482142

Did you have a technical question in regards to Daz Studio?

I think many people, including myself, are coming from a place of object frustration and annoyance.
When you pay a nice sum for items…and then can't get basic replies. Much less help, that is beyond frustrating.
Over time, it starts to grate.
You start to get the impression that the only thing that matters to Daz is "get them to put it in the basket" and nothing else.

Support for items is not just about "getting things to work". It's about customer retention as well.
I was making purchases daily.
Unless there is some great deal on something like the recent daily offers for 2.99 or the lightning deals(Got the Pegasus wings for daz horse 3 for something like 1.25)
I am rarely purchasing…from daz.
Why? The entire support issue.
The fact I purchased files that are supposed to work, supposedly tested, and yet…finding out after purchase that the issue was known? And not sorted? or the item removed?

Tell me what would you do if you went to a shop, purchased an item...to find it was broken. Sold as new. Sold as working.
Would you just ignore it? Or would you, at the very least, ask the shop to fix it/make it right?

Even the most laid back individual that would go "well, it depends on the price and you know sometimes you just got to accept the loss"...over time that "loss" adds up.

That is why so many people are just...so frustrated. Just so to their back teeth with the utter...tripe.

RHaseltine posted at 6:17 PM Tue, 15 October 2024 - #4490366

We (daz Mods) have pointed out some people are still having issues with the membership page, and it is on their radar.

Just to be clear, I am not here as a conduit of information 9and I don't know the answers to many questions, including the delays with Tech Support tickets) - I am just trying to point out some misunderstnadings or to present, based on publicly posted information, some alternative perspectives.

Thank you for the clarity!
Now, as you are part of their team...who does have control over any of that?
because I have gone into my tickets and even posted reminders, requests etc to the open tickets.

Razor42 posted at 11:27 PM Mon, 14 October 2024 - #4490347

Again to be frank, I would prefer Daz 3D spend their time developing new features like FIlatoon. Rather than running around attempting to oil every squeaky wheel that doesn't agree with this decision or that direction. I get it you may have concerns over the ethics of AI, some may have concerns over the introduction of Premier and the direction that's heading. To have concerns and preferences is absolutely human and perfectly ok. That doesn't mean you have the right to demand moderators answer all your questions or an expectation that Daz 3D will just drop something in an attempt to please everyone across the board, just because someone thinks one of their decisions is a bad one. 

To be honest I prefer forums that have a degree of moderation and that don't tend to allow negativity for the sheer sake of negativity to thrive and taint the well for everyone who visits.

Sure, voice your concerns but please try to at least keep it civil.

Honestly, I thought this was the Daz Studio forum, not the Daz 3D - 2 Minutes of Hate forum...

Maybe have a read through here when you have a minute:

https://www.renderosity.com/wiki/policies/terms-of-service

Moderation is not, in itself a bad thing. I run and mod both discords, twitch and a chat site. I understand mod'ing forums. (namely, Dnd, and two twitches for people that stream CoD and WoW)
But in all the places I am involved in, person views/dislikes of mods and them using that as leverage is not allowed. Flat out. It will end your access to the mod features.

When plenty of customers have the same complaint (namely the lack of support and the favouritism game in the forums) that is not a “personal perspective” any more, that is an ingrained issue.

I have put a rather nice chunk of money into daz…particularly in the past two years.
ANY product I buy(electronics,houseware,programs,etc), should have timely support. That is generally accepted expectations.
To wait a YEAR or more...for basic support?
Are you joking?

Particularly when one of the items was noted to be flawed and not working(the same issue I reported) in 2018.
You think it is…extreme to expect them to…I don't know….actually DO something?

Has it occurred, that people are snippy and a touch sharp, because they are up to their back teeth with the games the Daz mods and team play?

Could be?

Maybe?
Very...possibly....

If your customers are repeating the same complaints...the customers...are not the issue

Razor42 posted at 7:32 PM Mon, 14 October 2024 - #4490343

Frankly, I think Richard deserves a raise and possibly some payment from Renderosity for moderating these forums also...

He is trying to be the "good guy"

But he is also blatantly ignoring direct questions...so not so good...


As for genAI!
Now you are talking something I know abit about. I have been actively involved with a few artists in regard to this issue.
Do genAI companies pay?
Yes and no.
No, for the most part, companies aren't paying. They are “scrapping” or “harvesting” (This is where I remind people to look very, very carefully at the ToS of profile/portfolio sites you join.)
There are many….many, current legal fights over this issue(recent win for artists is that judges are seeing it as IP infringement and trying to protect artists). The biggest ones are, including companies such as Microsoft(one claim at one point was that if a person had used a 'windows' program any time past 2000 they had a right to what was created...) and DA (amongst other companies. Lionsgate may be facing their own soon. They are training their "own genAI" with their library...but writers, actors, etc have not been asked for consent). Though, we have heard of some, many we have not even heard of on the news sites. These companies have wholesale stolen artwork and used it to “teach” their genAI. Even going so far as to list specific artists to harvest from. Then their "genAI" samples the images and POOF! You get your attempt at images from millions of pieces of work.
For the most part, these are the genAI engines most people have available to them. It's all stolen material that is sampled.

Downfall-Recently, professors studying this issue have noticed something I find particularly funny. With the huge glut of fake images from genAI, it's starting to “cannibalize” itself. In Otherworlds, the genAI engines are getting fed its own work. So the skewed images are getting…more skewed.
(Please look into glazing your work, there is another system coming up for release that will help too)

The, "Yes" part…some studios have "In house" teams that do nothing but train genAI with the studio work. This is mainly to shortened work tasks. I believe(I will have to go back and double check) the studio that did "Black myth" game, did this.
The good point-work is not stolen. It's used as it was meant to, to AID artists, not destroy their rights.
But to do this effectively…you need a massive amount of data to get it to be effective.
(This is why I question Daz stating they are training their own genAI. I have seen their galleries...they are not mega-massive)

But seeing as we are getting the "nice, good, answers" here...please note that even "richard" is outright, avoiding answering valid concerns and questions.

This goes right back to the "Why?" part.
What exactly is daz so scared of??

Why are valid, simple questions so hard to answer for them?

GGreen posted at 6:19 PM Mon, 14 October 2024 - #4490338

I do hope Daz makes changes for the better because if not they will not likely be celebrating another 25 years of being in business.

AHHHH but there is the issue of “investment” customers.
We all know that feeling, "I have spent XXX amount and god, I want to get my money out of it..."
Or
"I have spent xxx and why am I going to waste it, I have it, I can't really do much with it outside of DS..."

And that is the hook.

Adobe, Thought, they had that hook. But then you have a slew of free programs(or sites like photopea) that give you all the goodies and no cost.

Daz is smarter, they are giving drips and drabs to their customer to make them stay.

SydneyInPeril posted at 7:09 AM Mon, 14 October 2024 - #4490323

Do note that I have a friend who used DAZ Studio that did attempt to make their comments on the rapid downhill slide towards mining the userbase for additional profit streams (advertising), and they got their comments deleted for effectively being critical of DAZ staff and management... and couldn't even comment on that they had comments deleted for it without getting those deleted for "questioning moderator decisions". Or, as they put it to me, they were expected to be so milquetoast in their comments because of the way the TOS was being applied on the forum, that there was no way to provide good constructive criticism about the direction of the company they had been giving money to.

No support for products bought with real money that don't work right... and no complaining about it.

Oh I can prove it happens.
I was toe to toe with one of their mods(in email), for ages! Showing him explicate examples of people saying WAY worse things than I ever did and their posts being allowed to stand.(the favouritism that exists is shocking and blatant)
They would back and forth over the reasons why those comments were ok, but stating "some companies will nail you for it (IP infringement) and some wont" was removed, and I was put on being moderated before I could post.
I even have the email still, stating it was not directly in the ToS...but the moderator felt it was needed to be removed.
(So basically stating, even if it is not against the ToS they can just…delete your post if they dont like you or it)

I was a happy wee camper at Daz...till that crap started. Till I bought a package for eyes and noted a rather glaring issue. That made it near unusable.
I went to tech. Found out…it was originally brought up 2018.

Did they do anything? Nope. Did they remove the package? Nope.

Have they responded to support? NOPE.

Then there was the issue of the VDB file and I had several screenshots of progress showing it was, literally, the ONLY item in the scene as an issue.
Completely ignored. Still an open ticket. Still an item I can't use.
Then I made the comment in regard to IP infringement, and that was the straw on the camels back.
(To be perfectly honest. I did have one post deleted, but that did deserve to be.)
But one post that was removed, it was noted I “inferred” that the DAZ staff didn't do something right.
(This was testing the roll out of a discount that everyone was complaining about. I said that every site I know of, tests the roll-out first to catch glitches before making it "live"so they dont get an entire customer base ticked off.)
Apparently I “inferred” daz wasn't doing their job.
(Please someone tell me when the Daz employees became gods or people that should -never- be questioned?)

What exactly are they so scared of?
WHY NOT JUST ADDRESS THE VALID CONCERNS OF YOUR CLIENT BASE?

RHaseltine posted at 5:24 PM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490292

DarkElegance posted at 4:13 PM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490286

Removal of posts, ignored by support and having their concerns twisted around...

Very few posts have had to be removed, none for objecting to Premier per se.

Nice to completely ignore the direct question about the support...rather, lack of it.
NICE!
Not surprised.

And none removed for objecting to Premier..per se?

You sure on that?
You...really sure about that?

Here is the thing, why should any customer that has dropped money into your (euphemistic, your) company NOT have a clear and valid say?
Why shouldn't they be allowed to complain and voice/air concerns?
What exactly is Daz so scared of?
If their (Daz) standing is solid and sound…why not just answer the concerns, questions etc?
The questions in regard to IP permissions? IGNORED and oh how they were censored.
Why not just…release a nice banner with the licence permissions? Or heck! Even partnerships! You don't think your customers would be over the moon if you did? That would mean they could use products with a solid conscience!
Heck, if I knew for -=fact=- that your company had the licence/permission to certain IP material, I would pay for it!
People bring up concerns about the lack of support? Shut them down! Delete and warn them!
Don't like premier or how the company did it?
SHUT THEM DOWN!

Can you see WHY customers are questioning the situations?

Any company that is solid in its methods...answer valid questions. They don't censor their client based!

They dont need to censor their customers!

SO...

I'll ask again
WHY DOES IT TAKE SUPPORT FOR DAZ, A YEAR OR MORE TO REPLY TO REQUEST FOR VALID SUPPORT. ON ITEMS THAT WERE BROUGHT UP TO BE PROBLEMATIC IN 2018? (why was it not fixed back then or pulled from sale?)

OR CONTENT THAT IS NOT PERFORMING CORRECTLY?

WHY OVER A YEAR?
(and I know...Im not the only one)

GGreen posted at 2:30 PM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490281

I have the previous collection of Mesh grabber, what is so great about mesh grabber 4? Is there really such a big difference.  Daz is being a bit selfish, we should be allowed to purchase it if we want it.  I do not think Daz staff has learned much in its 25 years of business. At least now it looks like they do not care about their long term customers. We are the reason they lasted these 25 years.

Business model: let's offer an enhanced buying experience for 70 a year. Able to be paid annually, and you can even get discounts at certain times of the year.
Pretty good. Customers stay the year, they spend money on reduced items(though, I have noticed those items are not that reduced recently. I think the last basket was reduced by about 2$)

So…they then go:
"Lets make it double, and not give them an option to pay annually and then take a poo on them for complaining"
Will get customers, some yes, will stay and swallow the 20 a month…others will just not do that and maybe…MAYBE pay once or twice for a month here and there
Their solution?

"Let's make it so some of the content will ONLY work if they STAY with premier…."

So penalizing customers that are already getting bitten with the cost of living....

AND trying to FORCE customers to stay....


What a way to listen to your customers and show appreciation for those that have stuck with your company for 25 years!
And I know what will be said "yes even if we lose some of the customers the upswing in cost will cover those we lost"....so considerate of those customers that made Daz a name past zygote....
When the irate customers ask a VALID question like "Hey! why cant I just buy it annually?" or "Hey why is there no support for items"
what happens?

Removal of posts, ignored by support and having their concerns twisted around...

BRILLIANT!!

DexterF posted at 8:11 AM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490268

You mean paint hair onto the model in 'shop or Gimp? 

Gimp, procreate, photoshop, corel...anything. Wet hair has this....smoothness that doesnt really translate well into 3d. THOUGH, with that said, there is an artist on DA that got Dforce hair to look WET in the symo. It is beautiful and it looked lovely, wet, shiny....I believe they posted the settings they used too.

He did this image next to this green water...beautiful. Really beautiful and the hair...

Katsuyaki posted at 1:13 PM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490279

SydneyInPeril posted at 8:54 PM Fri, 11 October 2024 - #4490212

Ugh, I deal with the Rent-Ware thing as part of my day job, and it frustrates me there at what they do to attempt to make us be online to them all the time. I shudder to think of what a much smaller company will do to attempt to force someone to be online all the time to let their activity with the product be viewed, especially with their dalliance with generative engines.

Other options are looking so much more viable by the day.

Note that I deliberately killed DAZStudio's ability to phone home on my system when I found out about the generative image engine thing.

My work machine is completely isolated from the internet. I use a different machine to go online with, and transfer over whatever files I need on the work machine manually with a portable hard-drive. Not very hi-tech, but it works. However, it also means that I probably can't use the Premier version of DAZ Studio on that machine, since it seems like it would need to phone home at least once (and probably periodically) to verify your membership status to use the Premier content. Another reason I won't be subscribing. 

I have my "faffing about" puter, then I have my graphics puter. The graphics puter only connects for me to install Daz content and that is about it. It is -only- for graphic work. Nothing else.