ok yet again we have the issue of art being stolen art being posted...I know I keep and eye out to try and catch as much as I can in the venues I frequent. but here is an idea. they dont seem to fear ONE artist at a time. but what if artist banned together? creat a watch dog group? one that could as a whole...a collective {no not the borg} make an effort to stop this practice? what if we all ban together make a site or what not...and actually activly help each other with this problem. sooner or later it is going to hit every one of us. if they have a "group" that goes after offending sites or people it may be a bigger deterent then one artist complaining.

ack I forgot to say I know I would donate time and web design and all to it...perhaps there would even be a lawyer interested in helping those with the problem etc

Hmmmm....you know what? Good Idea.

that way if one of the group they can contact the site owner an artist can "register" with the site and that way we can keep an eye out for the work or if we see work we recognize we can send a formed warning letter requesting either it be removed or proof given that they have permission to use it. I also this that with a group of artist that bann together I think we could actually make effective changes in the laws about copyright..and in how places deal with it. We all would be taken more seriously

ok the typoes have attacked me bad I do apologize for that. it was suppose to be "that way if one of the group sees art they know is stolen they can contact the site owner ...." and it was suppose to be."I also think that with a group"

It does sound like a good idea. And you know what? If it were an 'umbrella' watchdog group that also took an interest in things like pirated poser products, it could be really effective. Art is stolen. Practically every product we buy at DAZ and Rosity is pirated somewhere. And no one person can do much about it on their own. So let's band together. The thing is that this thieving hurts the whole community, so why not combat it as a community? I have no idea what I could do as an individual, but I could imagine some kind of rota system for group volunteers where we all devote some of our time, and take turns to search the net for poser or art related sites and see what we see. mac

It's a good idea, but obviously approximately 50% of all models used by a lot of Poser artists are pirated, according to a knowledgable DAZ source. So its not surprising that since people like posting huge hi-rez files in the gallery that the thief mentality people think that stealing artwork is also "cool, hip, doin' it for the collective masses, etc." Stealing is Stealing, but somehow unless someone is personally affected, and finally feels like a rape victim, they then know how many model creators feel when they see their stolen models used without any payment, or even credit. Any organization to police stolen models and stolen art would be a great thing. But, oops, I said "police", and that's not a COOL THING, so we are back to everyone cowering and afraid to taken action. But when it gets bad enough, people eventually have to take action, or everything will be taken from them by thieves.

Policing may not be a 'cool' thing to do, but if people in these communities realised how much theft affects them, I can guarantee it would become ultra-cool in a hurry. Just think. A company like DAZ knows that on any model they make, they're going to lose 50% of the money they should be earning, to pirates and bandits. So what do they do? Well, I can't speak for DAZ, but I know what I'd be forced to do in the same situation. Put the price up. Simple as that. If you're going to lose 50% before you even start, how the hell do you stay in business wihtout some kind of price hike? Of course, there are other ways. Thge Platinum Club, good customer service, special deals, etc. But in the end, there's no getting away from it - PIRACY AFFECTS US ALL. And it affects us where it hurts. In our wallets. The above is my own POV. I am not saying DAZ does hike prices. It just seems to me that they don't have much alternative. But hey.... get wise, people! Policing may not be cool, but thieving is even LESS cool. mac

I'm for Borging. . .uh, joining together. It would seem the only time sites have the least incentive to listen to an artist is if all their friends gang up and yell too. Why not put it on an official level. I know my art has not appeared to be important enough to steal but even I'm for the "policing" of fair use. Seeing it everyday-- happened again in the fractal gallery within the hour-- well, enough is enough. Eily Garlick

I can spell my name right-- it's ust too hot here to compute that would be Emily Garlick

... good idea. I'm relatively new to CG (started with P5), but I can really feel for those that are "victims" - regardless of whether pictures or products have been stolen. Maybe it helps to think of DarkElegance's sugestion not as policing, but rather like a sort of neighborhood watch, and that tends to sound like protecting common interests rather than "controlling". So, where could this suggestion lead to?

50%! Wow, how do they know this, or are they just guesstimating? I think it would be possible to be on the look out for stolen art, but how would one know if they were looking at an image made from pirated products? I would think that would be a tad more difficult to determine, let alone police. I'm sure if you come up with a solution, the people in the music business would be interested as well ;-) I'm curious to know how you all manage to find your stolen works on the web, especially if the people are changing the title of it? Is it just coincidence that you see it, or are there repeat offenders or sites that seem to use this kind of art? Is there a way that an individual could look around the web to see if someone stole their art?

Two things to be careful of: 1) The artist may have different nicks on different sites. It would look really bad to accuse someone of theft only to find out that it is their own work. 2) What if the claimant is the thief? Although it's not likely to happen, it wouldn't surprise me if someone started claiming art that wasn't their own. (Either they're seriously desparate for attention or they have a grudge against the person whose artwork they're claiming.) Sure, they'd likely get caught relatively quickly, but the damage would be done. I haven't a problem with prosecuting thieves, but we need to make sure who's guilty before we lock and load.

by the 3D-Art Collective.

For one, our art, well not mine, but the good ones, are sitting here for the taking. They are in the galleries at large resolution with no protection.... Perhaps we are making it too easy for them to be taken. A right click/copy is all that need be done.... How can the galleries be protected ??? Is there a way to detect whom has copied an image? Is there some way to add increased protection so the images cannot be copied? Of course, a screen dump is always possible. I'm all for a group to help put this under control. The lawyer deal is much needed as well. Prosecution of some of these thieves has got to wake up some others.... Copyright is copyright...internet, magazines, photos, whtever....and even music :)

There are groups something like this that keep an eye on each others' work. I'm personally familiar with graphics (as in web graphics) groups, but there are others, as well, I'm sure. There's no reason it wouldn't work for R'osity artists, as well. It tends to be a fairly casual thing, in that you look around places you frequent, or you just happen upon someone's work on the web and you check it out a little, ask the artist if they gave permission, etc. It's more of a coalition than a task force (or the Borg, hehe). The only thing to guard against is the "lynch mob" problem. No one takes you seriously when you come marching up with torches and pitchforks and making threats. The trick is to be as calm, rational, and serious as possible (at least to their face; in private you can wave as many torches and pitchforks as you want). bonni

There's this company called Digimarc corporation that has been providing Digital Watermarking service for almost a decade now. See Digimarc's site for more info. I haven't checked out this site extensively, but it could be a solution, thought an expensive one, to keep track of your intellectual properties all over the net.

I've looked at Digimarc..and yes, fairly expensive...unless you make a living from your art...then it may be worth it, plus I would imagine a business write-off.

I'm interested in joining and helping out. Heck, none (or very, very few) of us are ever going to get rich doing our artwork...if some low-life scum rips it off and garners other artists' respect with it, it's like adding insult to injury. And I think thieves are cowards--I think they would be much more intimidated by a calm, resolute, implacable group than they would by one very upset artist. Lets do it--we'd need to figure out likely venues, to start out with....

Digimarc has three problems. 1) It's fairly pricey to buy a subscription. 2) It places an INVISIBLE mark on images, which means that thieves are not in any way discouraged from taking the items (i.e., they can't see a reason not to take them). 3) It's not at all difficult to remove a Digimarc watermark from a .jpg. I'm not going to say how it's done, but it's not difficult and I think it's probably possible to figure it out even with only moderate graphics experience. (Digimarc is aware of this, of course, they just don't advertise or acknowledge it). I've got nothing against Digimarc, particularly, and have certainly used their service, but for most people it's not really much of an option, and it won't do a lot of good for most folks, unfortunately. It's more hype than help, in my opinion. For what it's worth, they used to have free subscriptions for watermarking 1-99 images per year, no frills, etc. If you wanted the premium services (like them sending out their spider to look for registered images, etc.) you had to pay. Now, everything requires a subscription. bonni

Something else that needs to be repeated- Other sites have permission to use the graphics- I know I've given it to a couple myself. Best to inform the artist then let them handle it.

I actaully have a group already started on Geocities. If anyone would like to join us the group name is Spies_Like_Us Basically we do some research on who the artist is..if they are the real creator of certain images..and notify the offended party..or at least let the artist know that we have discovered his/her work elsewhere on the web..from there the true artist does what they feel needs to be done. This way, if the true artist indeed is using different names on different sites, at least they know that their backs are covered by other artists who care, and we dont get into any trouble. ;) We never accuse people first, we contact the artist first and ask questions, or just inform them...:) If you'd like to join, IM me here and I will add you to the list, or go to geocities and locate the group, and click join. Please be aware that we watch ALL kinds of art, not just Poser related..so we need many different diversities of artists..some may recognise Poser artists works, and others may recognise other types of images.. :)

Attached Link: http://www.picture-player.com/protect_image.htm

There is a way, but would require programing changes on the part of Renderosity. I have seen galleries where you click on the thumbnail to go to a larger image, but any click or double click after that returns you to the thumbnails. You can't right click or use the file menu to saveas because that returns you to the thumbnails. It's not fool proof, but it makes it a lot harder to download images.

well as far as the different nicks the artist would be able to list them. so that those in the group would be informed. as far as the other thing about the theif registering..well there would be either a probationary period of they would need to provide proof of creating the piece...I keep all my pz2s all of them. I keep screen shots of every piece. it is not hard and any valid artist would be able to easily prove they made a piece. consequently it would be nothing to ask that of applying artists. someone asked how do we all find the work..for me I stumble on it. or someone sends me a link. also as I have several galleries and do work for others and frequent a chat channel I see alot of art around if I recognize a piece and I know someone with the name silvermoon or what ever didnt do it...then I know to come and see who did and inform them of it. most of the time word sooner or later reaches you.

Grey cat, That would help quite a bit, but there is always the screen capture feature of paint programs like Paint Shop Pro that could be used to get around that, unfortunately.

If you're viewing an image, it's also stored in your web cache. All the protection in the world won't stop someone pulling the image straight out of there.

Yup, SamTherapy, people allways forget about the cache. It can be programmed out though, but Print Screen isn't part of Paint Shop or any other package. It's part of WINDOWS. See that little button up here, just beside your F12? No Digimarks or right click protections work agains that. I have yet to see an image I couldn't grab if I REALLY wanted to. Well currently I am having some problems grabbing pictures from my DVD's, but I have a program that can do that too. Somewhere G And they're for REFERENCE PHOTOS, before anyone whips out the pitchfork L Of course really really BIG images (larger than my screen) would be hard to get but they would also be a PITA to view for the ordinary user. Either you will have to place your name all over the picture, or just say ah well..... Og course you COULD also post LOW res versions of your art. Posting BIG almost-lossless pictures with a tiny sig in the corner makes it easier for the thieves, whereas a 640x480 medium res version isn't as interesting (at least I don't think so) Og and SamTherapy... I have been thru your gallery more than once :o) - so stop whining ;o)

There are many ways to discourage people from taking your images, but they only work with people who aren't very technically savvy. Anyone who has a moderate to advanced level of technical understanding of how a web browser works can very easily get around all types of "protection" in a number of ways. Basically, all you can do is make it clear to them that you don't want them taking the images from your site and that's about it. If they're mostly clueless (and I think a lot of image thieves are, actually), they'll get the hint. If they're really determined, they'll find a way to get your image, period. I've never yet found any protection scheme that would work entirely. Discourage, sure, frustrate and annoy, definitely, but that's about it. Those who are desperate to get your stuff WILL get it, like it or not. bonni

maclean writes: "Just think. A company like DAZ knows that on any model they make, they're going to lose 50% of the money they should be earning, to pirates and bandits. So what do they do? Well, I can't speak for DAZ, but I know what I'd be forced to do in the same situation. Put the price up. Simple as that. If you're going to lose 50% before you even start, how the hell do you stay in business wihtout some kind of price hike?" That would be suicide. You make money from genuine customers. You don't make money from thieves. Hurting the genuine customers hurts your business. It would be different if the models were made out of gold and Daz had to recoup the cost of the raw materials in each stolen model. This fallacy is as old as the software business. I make a program and offer it for sale at $1,000,000. I sell no copies and 50 people warez it. I then claim to have lost $50,000,000 in sales! Yeah, right. Personally, I suspect this 50% is plucked from thin air. Who are these Poser artists who are doing the stealing? Why not go after them if you know about them? As for the watch dog group, surely this is already happening in an informal way? It seems to me that those who steal other people's artwork and claim it as their own get found out pretty quickly, and thereafter their name is mud. It's a really stupid thing to do; you can't get away with it.

I think you need to hit it in 2 ways. 1. make it more difficult for them to get your work. R'osity need to deal with this by increasing their security or in the very least their warnings. A warning should appear at the top of every image. 2. This is a big community of artists, and I am sure most of you are also members of other communities (shame on you ;p) Get lots of petitions signed, send them in to governments, push for legal rights etc.. Taking images without prior consent is theft and should be dealt with in the same way it would if I walked into a gallery and lifted a picture of the wall and walked out with it. Copyright for artwork is copyright regardless of local copyright laws are concerned (from what I have been told) Some years ago I had some artwork stolen, I was not using the net to show it off. The artwork I did was hand drawn, I had it made up as a set of prints. Someone bought my print and used it to create their own set of prints. The problem I had at that stage was proving that the artwork was created by me. This will also be the same when posting on the net. Hands Off My Artwork (HOMA) as the collective would be good but it should not (no matter how satisfying it would be) be a lynch mob. If that does not work then instead of being a struggling artist and going away and cutting off your own ears.... I forward the notion that theft of my artwork should carry the penalty of.. cut their thieving hands off and slap them around the face with the soggy end. Boy I'm getting wound up now. Best go get some more caffeine. "power to the Poeple" and all that see y9ou all soon.

lol.. ah.. you all make me laugh, always so conserned with your art work being stolen and used by someone else, as if you really had the option of preventing it. Short of never showing anyone ever again, you have no hope of stoping people from being thieves. sure, you can set up all sorts of things, ugly watermarks, lower quality images instead of the real thing you made.. sure they will help.. cause who would want something that looks like crap cause its done in poor quality. (which makes you look like a newbie, or overly paranoid, in my opinion anyway) I know, i probably should just shut up and never have said this, cause it makes people feel good to think they can do something about it. but this is the internet after all, and i for one won't waste my time trying to stop something they you can only delay for a while.. (not to say my artwork is good enough to steal anyway) If you must continue to hunt down "artists" who take works from others and claim it as their own, please by all means do that, since they don't have the right to claim it, but personally i think trying to prevent the theft in the first place (since it is the internet) is a bit foolish.

"Get lots of petitions signed, send them in to governments, push for legal rights etc" I don't understand this part. We already have legal rights. I've been putting images on the 'net for nine years already. And I have given many people permission to post on their sites. I just don't remember who they all are. I'd really hate to see someone I gave permission to be crucified.

Spit, you gave them permission to use your images. That is not the issue here. Do you know if they credit you for the images or claim that they created them? As to the legal rights, yes we do have rights but have you ever tried taking someone to court for copyright infingement. Unless you are a large corporate company you the courts can not be bothered with "petty claims" as they see it.

I work quite a lot on the online adult industry designing websites. When someone post pics that are not their own the people who own the pics politely ask them remove them. Most times people do. People by far, for the most part are good. However occasionally you get someone who is a complete worm about it and will not take the images down. Thats when much of the community gets together and 'pays a visit' to their site. If they have forums, a couple of thousand messages clogging up their system generally makes them see things more clearly. If that fails, a couple of thousand emails a day. If that fails then more drastic measures usually work. This all sounds perhaps a little over the top but it is effective. I have sympathy and respect for people that post the pics and take them down when asked. We all make mistakes. Unfortunately legal paths won't work so sometimes we need to take things into out own hands.

Phantast. You say 'I make a program and offer it for sale at $1,000,000. I sell no copies and 50 people warez it. I then claim to have lost $50,000,000 in sales! Yeah, right' I'm sorry, but you obviously have no clue at all about business practices. A business which sells virtual products doesn't do their accounts in terms of profit minus raw materials + labor, the way a car factory would. Nobody pirates Ford trucks. Software manufacturers have to think in terms of yearly income. How much does it cost us to do R & D, pay our staff, offices and overheads? How much income would we get selling X products at Y price? Then they arrive at a price for items based on the market and how much they expect to sell. So, if you total all that up, it's obvious that if they were selling twice as many of their product, the unit price would be lower. This is known as elementary arithmetic. Re caching - Caching-schmaching. All you need to do is press alt-f-a to save the web page c/w image. Who needs to go poking around in a cache? mac

Well, maclean, software is an odd business, just because there are no raw materials, and "unit price" is subject to different constraints from Ford trucks. To follow on from your example, once the company has decided to sell X units at Y price, assuming they do sell X units, then they hit the target. If, in addition to selling X units, Z units are stolen, the loss is not the same as if Z Ford trucks were stolen. The loss is actually only equal to the proportion of Z that would have been sales. Accounting practice in the software industry for the last 20 years has been to count that proportion always as 100%, irrespective of Y. This is obviously not the case. Neither is the proportion zero in normal cases. The proportion relates to Y, which is why I gave an absurdly high unit price in my previous post, to make the point clear. To sum up - the software industry does lose money to piracy, but historically has tended to exaggerate the real loss.

Agree!

Actually, I've read that this is how some you-know-what's are passing messages.

That's steganography. Oh yes! It's a wonderful way for baddies to keep in touch. Let's say that I am head baddie and I want to indicate to all my henchpersons that the next operation is timed for next Wednesday at 13:00, I embed this message in a Poser jpg and upload it (using an internet cafe for the purpose) to the Poser gallery here, where it looks just like any other Poser picture. The henchpeople already know to watch the Poser gallery for a picture entitled " ~~Sunset Temple~~ ". When they see that picture appear, they download it and decode the message. All the email spying and monitoring systems that the FBI can operate are bypassed by this simple system. I greatly doubt that anyone in the FBI either can or is trying to monitor every picture on R'osity and every similar site for hidden messages.

Attached Link: http://www.flash.net/~bob001/echelon.htm

LOL Actually I would imagine a problem the NSA has with all the listening devices is that they gather way too much data. The same way we keep losing those freighters because there aren't enough eyeballs looking at satellite pictures. ;-) I think it's a great idea to use a crawler. More specific.

not sure- but I think I read somewhere that sites like 'osity strip any text or under info from pics. Maby a mod could ask for us :)

Just another conspiracy theory, but what do you think all the viruses are doing??? They are pre programmed so they could be in your machine relaying info back????

~blinks~ if WE know about it ...I am sure the CIA and FBI and the what ever of what ever know about it. and now that I am thoroughly paranoid now of viruses and such I will go and hides for a wee bit and go through my machine with what ever I can perhaps clorox and dawn dish soap will do. {please note the pun and attempt at humor I really do not use those to clean my puter I use ajax}

"The same way we keep losing those freighters because there aren't enough eyeballs looking at satellite pictures..." Fortunately (or unfortunately) you don't need eyeballs to analyze a data stream, just a few hundred million $ worth of supercomputers. I imagine they probably use both techniques. "not sure- but I think I read somewhere that sites like 'osity strip any text or under info from pics." I don't know about the galleries but I downloaded the image from my meaasge, ran it through the program and the text is still there.

I've read through all these posts and while I sympathize with those that it bothers to have their artwork used without permission, the newest call to arms really bothers me. Now jump had the best idea running and that was to have a group together that if they see a picture that they believe is an infringement, to inform the original artist of that infringement. NOT to go after the infringer as a group, who are not the copyright holders, and therefore do not have jurisdiction or power to make such claims under current law (if such law even applies). DarkElegance makes it sound like a medieval tribunal where the possible infringer is brought before the court in shackles to prove his innocence with WIP's or whatever, without authority. Lord help any group or it's members that takes this tact and winds up wrong, as the organization, it's members and any other group it represents (like Rosity), could all be named in a counter claim from the liability and slander. The bottom line is like Illusions said, you better have a darn good understanding of the law (not just copyright, but slander and other laws that pertain to public accusation) in all countries and how it relates to your images before attempting to serve as some sort of copyright agent, which unless the artists sign such copyrights to you, such a group would not be.

To me personally in regards to my own work, I don't see the fans who want to display it on their site as criminals, but merely art lovers who liked an image and want to share it. Short of selling such artwork as merchandise (t-shirt, prints, which most art is too small to use anyway on Rosity) of course. I appreciate people telling me they've seen it as it gives me a chance to see it and only once have I had to send a letter to someone, and only because they were using my site's bandwidth to serve the image on their site, not because they chose to display it. In that case, I offered to send it to them. The bottom line I think is to weigh what is really going on and try to keep that in perspective before lighting the torches...

ShadowWind

PS: I'm not saying that people don't have a right to be bothered by such practices, just that one should be careful on how they approach these and that it shouldn't be assumed that all artists feel as though they were raped of their art...

Well said.

er what I said was to send a notice of infringment to the person using the piece with out permission...wwwwwwwhhhhhhere does that say shakled of burn the witches? it is to send a notice to cease and desist to the theif. and to inform the artist where their work is being used illegally. to aid artists in the chore of keeping their work used by only those licensed to do so. to keep and eye out for work that is illegally used. HOW is that an inquisition??

oh and P.S. if you had read my post you would of seen where I said possibly geting a lawyer involved to..which I have talked to two now that have an interest....so exactly where am I making it sound like a tribunal?