You know people were saying "V5 free" etc?

V5 is on the latest edition DVD of 3D World.

On sale in UK newsagents: 31 January 2012
On sale US newsstands: From 29 February 2012

And if you go to their page there is a 20% off coupon for the Standard or Pro bundle as well.

Hah. Yep. Wonder how many bought the lower end V5 bundle, and here she is on the magazine cover dvd. I foresee more moaning.

P.S. (Dunno who said it about other 3D Apps needing to be changed to accommodate)

Genesis is far too new and unproven for any of the other application developers to give it a serious look just yet.
I'd imagine they'll want it around a few years before adding support.

Imagine you wrote in support for Genesis into say, the next version of Maya, and then Daz decides that Genesis just wasn't all it was cracked up to be (sales wise) and drops it?

I'm guessing it'll be a few years before any of the other software developers adds Genesis support, and I think they'd only do it if their users demanded it. (Maybe.)

PS I don't know this, as I don't have Vue, but does Vue support .ds?
I know ZBrush had a Poser importer of sorts for years. Does it import DS? (Without GoZ)
I know I didn't have to install a plugin to import from Poser (but I did have to have poser installed if I remember right)

It just makes me wonder, because other 3D Apps will import native Poser, or have some kind of importer. As I don't use DS, I don't know if it's the same with that.

I remember Bryce imported Poser just fine, too. Before Daz got their hands on it.

Quote - If I want something badly enough and it is marketed well, I'm a sucker for that as much if not more than the next person. Which is at least one of the reasons I was in the pre-order queue waving my fist-full of dollars at SM.

Ditto. But then, I've always upgraded Poser, regardless.

Quote - I've grown cautious, now.

Ditto again.

I don't mind they put the programs out for free. Nice. I have "bought" them, although I don't plan on installing them. I already own Hexagon anyway, but now have a second licence. DS? The last version crapped out on my machine and I don't like the way they handle meta data. I don't want "dirty" software that leaves processes running when I don't use the proggy. I hate it that Photoshop does it.

The motive, I would think, is to boost content sales.
Not only is the economy slow, many people didn't take to Genesis quite the way Daz probably hoped. That's gotta impact sales quite a bit.

And how many of us Poser users are now shopping elsewhere? (I do.)

Jani, I remember buying the first dragon (remember that beast?) from Zygote (way before Daz even existed) for $79.95. I think the texture (one of them) was with it, but I don't remember for sure.

Who is whining about it being free? blink

Just saying without documentation (in any form) I wouldn't pay $400 for it, and I didn't. Wouldn't even consider $50. Learned my lesson last time, with DS3A. (And I paid a lot more that $1.99 for it.)

Free or not, I don't think making it free (regardless) was a good move. Especially not for a whole month. A day might not have upset the apple cart too much, but a month definitely will.
Sure, a lot of people will go and download it, but I don't think there will be many converts.
Those who really want to use DS4 probably already do. Those who really don't want to use DS4 will already use something else. (Poser, Carrara, Cinema 4d etc etc)
I doubt many go beyond the initial install, if that. Some will upgrade the version they already have. Some will really like the software and continue using it.
My guess is, most won't.
But it'll snag a lot of newbies.

It always makes me shake my head when I see "The most popular 3D program" (based on downloads on CNet) If you stuck a free cutdown version of 3DS Max on CNet, which didn't have watermarks on renders and such things... give you three guesses what would be the most downloaded 3D App on there.
If it were the "Most popular" by units sold -- then I'm impressed. Free downloads? When you have to redownload every version completely for any incremental updates? Well hey...no brainer in the numbers game, right there. It's bound to artificially inflate the numbers.

I'm sorry those who bought it not even 6 months ago got stung. Badly. I'd be very annoyed.
And I'm happy that those who really wanted the "higher version" could get it for free.
Most of us, who can't be bothered about whether DS lives or dies...well, we're just not bothered either way, whether it's free, or costs $1000. :)

@ksanderson, the DS3 Wiki was updated by users when I bought it, not staff. It may have been started by staff, but everything I found was user updated.
"Making progress" on documentation some 8 months? after release of the software is a pretty poor show, imo.

Stuff like that should be done before the software is released, not after. Everyone else seems to manage to release docs at the same time just fine, except Daz.
Considering they had a pricetag of over $400 on this (alleged) professional 3D program, and they don't deliver a manual with it (because it doesn't exist), is one of the reasons why I will never consider DS in any shape or form professional software. (PS - a wiki is useless. Most companies block sites like that, even if they use the software.)

@Deecey - yeah, thought it was something like that, but couldn't remember exact numbers. I just remembered it was looooooooooooooong lol.

Quote - Carrara 8.5 will be coming out of beta soon and it will be a paid upgrade

After this -- how many people will spring for it?

I've added DS4Pro / Bryce / Hexagon (already own it) to my cart and hit confirm.
I never pass up freebies, never know when you need/want them. :)

But yeah, something tells me they are trying to increase the user base for DS, only I already had Standard (was free when it first came out) and never even downloaded it. That's how interested I was.

I'm sure many people add and download it.

Install and use? That's a whole different ballgame.

Convert? They didn't convince me to switch before, why would I switch now? Just because it's free? To me that devalues the entire software line.

I bought DS3A. I even got suckered into buying plugins and that Dreamlight sub, thinking I might actually use them and get something out of that subscription as I had no idea how to to use the darn thing. (I actually have a lifetime sub, which I've barely used.)
It was an epic fail.
I struggled from the initial installation onwards. There was no documentation (and there still isn't) so I asked simple questions, like "Where do I install the plugins?"
I got 15 different answers, ranging from "In your Programs folder--" "Uh-uh. Let me stop you right there. NOTHING lives in "My Programs". Period." to "I am wondering about that too." None of the answers made any sense.  (What's so hard about having a "Plugins" folder? I seem to recall there is one, but apparently that's not where they are actually installed to. Or something. I still don't know.)
After failing to grasp where the heck the plugins go, we get to content. Well hey, guess what? No one could give me a straight answer of what goes where and how in the heck I can install content to Poser without having to put the DS stuff into my Poser runtime as well. (Not.Gonna.Happen.Thanks.) I'm not about to install it twice, just to keep DS happy.
Then they went from having DS only and Poser only installers, to combining them. ARGH. Then they did it for some, but not for others. I just made no sense.
So why in the name of all that's holy would I want to go through all that AGAIN?
First and foremost, I want documentation that tells me stuff like that. Call me old fashioned, but I like a big fat manual. (Poser Pro 2012 is what? 900 pages long? Plus a 200+ page Python manual?)
How can you claim you're setting new industry standards if you can't even produce a manual to go with this "Professional" software?
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't have a single piece of software on my system - bought or free - that didn't come with some kind of "This is how you use it" document.
Daz just pointed me to an out of date, for the most part user maintained, wiki. A WIKI. You think I want to go online every time I get stuck, and then find the solution I find is for a version that's been outdated for the past 8 months and has since had a significant rewrite?
A Pro version isn't an eternal beta version. And that's why I won't use it. Not even for free. As far as I'm concerned, DS is a beta. Always has been.
(And I resent the fact that I ended up redownloading and reinstalling DS3A every few months, and it got worse on my machine with every incremental "fix", until it stopped working altogether.)

I've tried and I failed. Not going to try again, even for free.

Quote - DAZ Studio Advance is available in both 32 bit and 64 bit, Poser 9 is only 32 bit.

Err.

DS4 Standard is 32bit only. If you want 64bit you need to go to Advanced at least.

Poser 9 is 32bit only. If you want 64bit you need to go to Poser Pro 2012.

You can't compare Poser 9 and DS4A.

Same as you can't compare DS4 Standard with Poser Pro 2012.

You can compare Poser 9 and DS4 Standard, however, as both of those are the entry level.

FWIW - Reading comprehension = Nil for some.

I wasn't complaining about the freebies, I said the majority are for Genesis. That's great for Genesis users, and sucks for me. I didn't say they are bad, or useless, or anything like that. I wouldn't DO that, but you read into it what you wanted to see.

Besides...I probably said what most Poser users are thinking, but don't dare say, because it'll be read as a complaint, rather than as stating a fact.

Man...seriously. I'm ditching one forum after another these days, because people are unwilling or incapable of taking something at face value.

Randall wanted to know what the issues are, and being unable to spend vouchers due to incompatible content, or restrictions, is an issue. It means I don't shop. Freebies I can't use are another issue, because that also means I don't bother with the forums.
We are being told that Poser users will not be shunted to the side and eventually driven away, but a list of content we can't use will do this faster than anything. Whether it's free, or for sale. If we have no reason to visit Daz, then we don't shop there. That's my point. Freebies drive sales. Not just for Daz, but also for the PA's.
If I can't use them, then why should I bother going there? That's not a complaint, that's simply a fact.
The freebies are wonderful for those who can use them, and of no interest whatsoever to those who can't.
Worse, it means customers feel that Daz doesn't care about them, which is precisely the reason Randall came over here. To reassure us that this is not the case.
Unfortunately, looking at the store and -yes- the freebies, a completely different picture emerges. Whether it's intended or not, whether it's driven by Daz or not, whether it's true or not -- none of that matters if the perception the customer gets is not the one they want to project.
I've shopped "over there" before Daz even existed and it was still Zygote. There are still many of us old timers around. And we will be the hardest of all to convince that we are still valued customers.
Right now, I don't feel like a valued customer. I feel slighted, unwelcome and unvalued. I feel like that old shoe that gets pushed aside in favor of a newer, unfaded, more modern boot, even though I'm probably the more comfortable one to wear because I know the shape of your foot better.

BTW -- The only issue I have with the installers is that the older ones are throwing up a "Did this item install correctly" in Win7.
And the gazillion clicks. roll eyes.
Other than that, I honestly don't care whether it's zip or exe. I do what most old timers do: Install to a temp folder and put it where I want it.

But I can see that on a Mac you can have issues due to incompatibility with operating systems. That's a problem, but I can also understand that Daz doesn't want to rebuild every installer just to make sure it works on all Mac incarnations, when it has no such problems on Windows.
I don't know the software that's available for a Mac and which would be backwards compatible, but if there is something, they should use that instead of whatever is used now.

All I can say is that part of my renewal voucher expired without being used.
My PC voucher is sitting in my account untouched and about to expire in what...less than two weeks, with Christmas in between where we're unlikely going to see new content.

Add to that all the "PC Extravaganza" vouchers (luckily I didn't spend much) which are valid until...January?

But when I go into the store, all I see is Genesis, or PC stuff, or textures for genesis stuff.

Meaning I can't use my vouchers on anything I can use which makes the PC membership once more pretty useless to me. (although I'm eyeing the Stonemason release, but money is tight)

Oh and most of the Christmas freebies are Genesis or DS, too.

That's what will drive people away.

Daz is lucky I renewed my PC membership, because if that sale had been now...I wouldn't have. I'd simply have walked away.

As it stands, I spend only enough to use my vouchers, if that.

DS3A crashed so much on my machine, it was unusable. :/

I never even bothered installing it on the new machine I have now, I was that fed up with it.

But thanks for the link. :)

Okay, I know this has been brought up before, but...

Rand, one thing that really bugged me in DS3A was not only the lack of documentation, but also the fact that it was a WIKI.
That's no way to do documentation, sorry.
I want help files. Searchable, well written, help files I can access from within the application. Or at the very least a PDF manual.
Without them your users are simply stuffed if their connection drops, or they are on dialup, or need to work offline for other reasons.
Many here have (3D work) machines that are not connected to the net. Others work for companies who will block access to many sites they don't deem work related. (FWIW -- mine blocks Daz3D, Rendo, RDNA and a few others.)
Online documentation is not a good thing, and a wiki is too easily messed up if you're not careful.

So... no to a documentation wiki.

Another that was brought up, more generally, is the ever-present dissatisfaction with promo shots.
Something needs to be done about this.
A hair figure needs shots from the front, both sides, and the back. It needs to have enough space at the top not to cut off the crown of the head so you can see the whole figure. Hair promos are my biggest source of frustration on the Daz site.
I don't care about "Artistic renders" showing every morph the hair can do -- if it lacks the basics, I won't buy it. I got burned too many times.
Many, many hair product shots are severely lacking in actual informational detail. You have 29 shimmering colors? Cool. I don't need to have an individual render for every single one -- all from the same angle. If you don't show me what the un-posed, default hair looks like from the front, back and both sides, then I'm not going there.
The crown-cut-off is just as bad. I've seen hairs where it was so "artistically" rendered/cut, it hid the wisp of hair sticking out on top. To me, that is on par with misleading the customer. No sale -- or often a return.

Clothing often falls foul of the same "artistic" hide-and-seek tactics. And then there is that M4 hipshot pose. Can we get rid of that horrible pose, please? Every other product that shows up uses that godawful pose to show off clothing "in it's best light". Newsflash -- I'd say 90% of your customer base loathe that pose and are turned off by it.
Maybe create a set of "PA/Promo Shot" poses that are mandatory to use as default "Front/Back/Sides" shots, and make them as natural as you can? If the creator wants to be "artistic", fine. But the default "Show off" images could be a bit more streamlined.

Shoes. If there are shoes with a clothing item, they need to be shown, not the feet cut off to show how nice the shirt is. You have no idea how annoying that is. I don't want to have to go into the forum to ask for someone to post a render of something. When I have to do that, it means you just lost an impulse buy.

The popup promo window...often loses the scrollbar once you click on the first image in the list. Annoying as hell. I have a big screen, but I was recently wrestling with a Stonemason preview that extended way down the bottom and I could not get to the bottom image without relaunching the promo preview popup. (Happens on IE and Firefox, as well as Chrome.)

Those are my promo pet peeves. The other is that I have to guess which items are used in a promo shot, if it isn't a Daz product. It wouldn't hurt to list what it is, even if you don't have a link there because it is not one of your items. At least we would stand a chance of finding it by searching. Let's face it, we only go in the forum and ask either people there, or the PA direct, and they'll tell us. It's not like it's a state secret. (Just look at the amount of "Which hair is this?" threads.)
It could be made a lot clearer what has been used, and I'm sure many people would really appreciate the effort.

But yeah...promos are an eternal bugbear with me. :) (And many others.)

Quote - Its WAAAAAAAAY to early for me to be telling you this but I am trying to bring on the next generation of Equines. It will happen....probably in the second quarter of 2012... but that isnt a promise and you didnt hear it from me B)

I'm deaf on that eye. :) Did you say something?

All I can say is, if it relies on Genesis... I'll be well and truly "nissed". And so will a lot of other Poser users. Tread lightly. :)

And if you need good photographs or video of a Paso Fino for a nice morph... cough I can sent you half a ton of them. ;)
(Oz has pretty nice legs...if you need some reference images for that equine we're not talking about lol)

Oh, and it would be nice if you could hide the tail in one go, for those of us who paint manes and tails. (Watch that backend. Some of the breed morphs kind of break the top of the tail) Also, another nice touch would be a "skullcap" type thing for dynamic hair. I realize DS doesn't have it, but Carrara does. I'm sure the Carrara users would love that.

And I'm sure there are quite a few horsey people around who know their stuff (probably better than I do) who'd be happy to give feedback on initial models, breed morphs etc.

Thanks for err...not...telling me, Rand. :)

Quote - I bought the Daz millenium horse for one job and had to scrap it because of the horrible distorted legs.  Still no fix that I am aware of. 

---I would be happy to look at an example. I have seen quite a few GORGEOUS renders of the Millenium Horse and I cant imagine what you mean without a reference.

Err... Daio, myself, and a whole host of other people who know about horses told Daz repeatedly about Rosinante's legs.
If it were a real horse, it couldn't walk. It would be put down.
To the layman it probably looks fine, but the front shins (cannon) are bowed/bulged slightly (even in SR1) the position of the knee being adjustable up and down???
The back cannon is actually worse than the front. (The front knee was a poorly done fix to the original version, where the relation between forearm and cannon was so off, it was scary. I remember half a million horse leg photos lol.)
There is proper relation between the length of a horses forearm and shin. Moving the knee up and down...really?
There is a lot wrong with that horse, but the first version was absolutely atrocious from a horse person's point of view. Holy yikes lol.
The neck. OMG the neck. You know a horse bends at the poll, right? Same as humans don't have the head attached to half way down their back with one bone. Would it make sense to have the head move at the point where it attaches to the spine, rather than about a hand length down the neck?
I realize that would create "crumple zones" at the top of the neck for some positions, so I can forgive it a little, but it often makes it very hard to pose the head naturally and a lot has to be fixed in postwork.
And the mane should/could have been done differently. Not attached to the neck.
For any future horse (and if you make one using Genesis you're going to really really upset people, I warn you now.) don't attach the mane, make it a separate figure supporting the morphs.

I strongly - strongly - suggest any modeller who does a new horse gets the model checked by a vet or a horse breeder before finalizing it.
You think if you released a human figure with legs that bow in the wrong direction, people wouldn't notice? :) Horses are among the most well known animals, along with dogs and cats. Getting those wrong will be noticed, because there will be enough experts in horse/dog/cat confimation to point it out to you.

Dangerous place to be, I'm sure. :)

Let me say this right up front. I appreciate Daz trying to communicate.

For me, it's far too late, because that bridge burned down back in the V5 Beta testing stage, when all of a sudden it went to "Install DS and Genesis to work with her".
Ditched, right that second. Told them it will not endear the Poser community to them if it's not usable in Poser.
I was shot down by rabid DS users, while some of the more level headed DS users also expressed concerns.

I've saved myself an awful lot of money by not getting any of the Genesis stuff. And I'm sure a whole lot of Poser users like me tightened their purse strings as well. It's gotta hurt.
The community is divided into two camps: Genesis and non Genesis users. It has nothing to do with DS or Poser, it has to do with the way it's been handled.
Not by Daz, or SM, but by the users themselves. DS users are their own worst enemy sometimes, and I'm avoiding the Daz forums these days. I'm fed up with flippant "Daz is doing things, you should talk to SM about this." replies. Or "Just use DS." Extremely fed up with it.
I don't want to use DS. Poser is my weapon of choice. I can do things in Poser easily, efficiently and the end result is (usually) exactly what I set out to do.
DS? I have tried to use DS and had nothing but problems with the software. I bought DS3A, and it crashed almost constantly on my machine. Every "fix" made it worse and I wrote it off. Period. I spent something like $160 on the software and you can't blame me for not falling into the trap of "Get DS4 Advanced" again.
Unfortunately I couldn't return the blasted thing because the return period expired while I was away. Not Daz's fault, but it still leaves me sour that I have effectively bought a piece of junk, along with a bunch of plugins, which raise that pricetag to well over $250 -- because I believed the hype. I'm an idiot, what can I say.
I won't give it another chance just so I can use a figure that doesn't work in my program of choice. For one thing, it's money I don't have to waste. There is no guarantee that DS4A will run on my system. I loathe this "Content Management Service" that is permanently running, whether I use DS4 or not. It put me off right from the word go.
Leaving a service running when you shut down the program is dirty programming. I don't understand why Daz can't shut the thing down when I close the software.
Adobe does the same thing, but it doesn't bother me as much, because I use Photoshop every day, several times a day.
DS? Definitely not.
I don't like it, I've never liked it, I hate the GUI, I can't find anything, it kept crashing continuously (I never finished a single render). Worse, there is ZERO documentation.
I never had a problem installing content for Poser. It's pretty straightforward and I'd say there is no confusion over where to install things. I have asked numerous times where to install DS plugins, where they have to live in order to work, where and how I can organize content so I A: Find it, B: Can use it.
I never got an answer that explained the DS structure. I just had folders all over the place and I had no idea which I actually needed. Well, the one thing I don't need is a bloated runtime and I hated the DS install with a vengeance, because it was so messy.
I gave it a chance despite not being completely convinced it was for me. I tried, and it turned me off the program, period. Frankly, that's more than I can say about those rabid DS users who keep telling me DS is the "superior" software. I'd wager 99% of those users have never used Poser.
So that's my reason for not using DS. But a LOT of my dislike comes down to the DS user base being obnoxious the moment you say you use Poser.

As for Genesis... Neat idea, but even with the exporter I would end up with a substandard version because of the subdivision. Which is just another reason for me not to pay attention to it, or to invest a single penny.

At this stage, the best thing you could do for Poser users is have a Poser V5 version, one that is weight mappable in Poser. We all know that won't happen, so you'll have to bite the bullet and face facts: Poser users will not buy V5 or anything Genesis, unless it works 100% in Poser.

Of course, even if you did develop a Poser only version...it would be far too late by the time it were available. Look at Antonia. The Poser community is already working on a figure that is extremely versatile, and there is still a lot more to come, and... Antonia is free.
She's being developed by people who use Poser exclusively, so she takes advantage of everything in Poser.
Just like Genesis takes advantage of DS technology.

I think this "rift" is going to widen, unless users on both ends can stop tearing into each other, and there is more communication as to what is really happening -- and that goes for both SM and Daz.

Sorry, long post, but that's where I stand.
Firmly on the Poser 2012 side. I am only buying prop content at Daz (if there are good props, which usually there are), nothing else. Definitely no Genesis.
Consider myself alienated by your decision to make a figure that's only usuable in your own software. I don't blame you for it, but it did make me look elsewhere for content. (And I'm sure stores like Rendo and RDNA are very happy about that, btw. I buy a lot of it there now.)

edit Fixing typos