And if I bought the ++ morphs for V4 and and M4 I wouldn't be able to use them in Genesis, correct?

That's correct.

But if you buy the Genesis Generation X at DAZ you can transfer all of the ++ morphs from V4 and M4 into Genesis. With that and the V4 and M4 shapes you can even transfer V4 and M4 characters into Genesis. I don't have Genesis Generation X, but from what I have seen posted in the DAZ Forums, it transfers the morphs and characters extremely well.

Coldrake

Hmm.

First off, unless you are ready to scrap your half finished project and start over (or figure out how to deal with the variations in app behavior and very real differences that you will find in animation, lighting, and shading), stick with your current application workflow.

Second.

As was said, do some digging. Do you use dynamic hair? Standard Poser feature; you would have to purchase Cararra to have it for DS, and do all your rendering in Cararra. Do you use dynamic clothing? Poser can convert just about any .obj file; DS only uses Optitex clothing made by said manufacturer; unless you fork out for -their- clothes creation software, you are limited to whatever they have made and sell at DAZ. Do you favor shader work over textures? Both apps support them. Poser currently has a far better interface and documentation of what they are and do. For that matter, DS at version 4 =still= lacks anything like a manual. A lot of your time will go into the 'sit and fiddle' stage of figuring out how the bloody thing works.

DS is not unique in weightmapping; P9-Ppro2012 does it as well. The major bugaboo is that DS uses Catmull-Clark subdivision at rendertime, so the actual mesh is low poly. Poser doesn't have CC, but another form with more limited function. However, if you upgrade to 2012, you can convert =all= previous Poser content to weightmapping. V4 is nearing completion in that regard; Nerd3D has already released an injection that give V4 WM (same rig; just a conversion from falloffs to maps). Phantom 3D is doing a re-rig and wm of V4. All the morphs will still work, but the figure will be somewhat 'lighter', as all the JCMs and magnets built into her that forcing P4 joint structure on her caused will be stripped out. There is also indications that V3 is in the pool for at least mapping, and possibly rerigging. Phantom is also working on Brad (fully wm), and since M4 is based on the same mesh as V4, simply transferring the base mapping and correcting the errors is also being looked into. Seriously.

What app fits your work style and pipeline is the one you should concentrate on. But be very aware that previous dynamics have been trashed. The G thing does not work in Poser. There is no new V thing or M thing on the immediate horizon. At least some of the legacy Poser content will not work well or at all in DS. And the Poser community is acting kinda like it did 15 years ago; creativity is on the loose once again, and people are taking whats there and running with it, not just waiting to sink a thousand dollars into the newest V thing and morphs and clothes and etc. Look at what Blackhearted did with Alyson 2 (look up Anastasia in the marketplace, one of his GND series). Antonia has been released, and she bends better than any previous figure. There is at least 3 other female and two new male figures in the works by various content creators, all Poser 9-2012 specific. Or like Antonia, there will be a 'standard' that will work in all versions, and a weightmapped for the latest Poser. 

You have options, now. Be cautious. Don't jump at the first new shiny someone waves under your nose. And don't wreck your project just because of app evangalists on either side of the growing divide. But do take a long gander and ask yourself which group is still adhering to known industry standards, and which one is pulling things more to an incompatible standard that will cost you $$ to export to anything with a decently fast render engine. 

"The major bugaboo is that DS uses Catmull-Clark subdivision at rendertime, so the actual mesh is low poly."

"But do take a long gander and ask yourself which group is still adhering to known industry standards, and which one is pulling things more to an incompatible standard that will cost you $$ to export to anything with a decently fast render engine."

These are two major issues for me, Dale B. I'm a long-time Poser user using V3 and V4, and I've been playing with Genesis for a couple weeks now, and have to say that it is a fantastic model and system--the flexibility and realism of the figure is amazing, plus the way that it resizes the clothing and hair with no fuss is like a dream.

Unforturnately, the low-poly mesh that is smoothed at render time in DS means that when it is exported (as an obj) to another program like Cinema 4D, where I do my rendering, the mesh looks worse than V4, and for an animator like myself, DS's limited lighting and slow render time (not to mention zero modeling capabilities and no hair) mean I couldn't even think of rendering a project there--plus the proprietary .dsb files for textures that you can't open and customize in Photoshop (which I do all the time with Poser-friendly jpg texture files) are another instance of DS trying to make you stay in DS only and use only official DS content rather than trying to make it compatible with other programs.

Not that Poser has gone out of its way to be compatible with other programs, either, tho they did once have a free plugin for Cinema 4D (now defunct since it only worked in Mac OS9), and there is InterPoser Pro, which allows one to get Poser-hosted Daz content into C4D--I can't credit Poser for IPP, of course, but at least it can exist: Poser uses more industry-standard files and systems, while the more I learn about the increasingly proprietary way DS works, the more I think that it simply couldn't work with other programs, even if they tried, and it's a shame, since they've always made great figures, Genesis included, which I would love to use, but I'm afraid it looks like this is where we part ways.

You should also check the commons in the DAZ forums and look for the problems with the Genesis/V5/M5 figures and morphs that are being reported.  Ignore the glowing reports, you don't really care what works well, it's where you're going to have problems that are more important.  If you feel you can work with the reported problems, work around them, then fine.  If not, treat like a toxic substance.  Promo pictures mean exactly nothing, nobody is going to put out a promo that shows problems.  Or, what you really need to know, they're going to hide.  DS4 basic is free, the basic Genesis figure comes with it, costs nothing to give a try.  V4/M4 will work in DS4, as will the morphs++ with those figures.  As will any other version of V/M.  Genesis is only a figure concept, not discrete figures, but a one figure does everything, so far, just not very well.

tvining,

Not really sure what you mean when you say “.dsb files for textures” Daz studio uses Jpeg files for textures just like Poser, always has. If you’re talking about the Material files that’s something else. In DS you save a file as a .dsb or .dsa file, .dsb file are compiled and .dsa files are text files that can be edited. The reason for the .dsb file that they’re much smaller size than the dsa files and most people wouldn’t know how to edit the dsa files.

Quote - Not that Poser has gone out of its way to be compatible with other programs, either, tho they did once have a free plugin for Cinema 4D (now defunct since it only worked in Mac OS9), and there is InterPoser Pro, which allows one to get Poser-hosted Daz content into C4D--I can't credit Poser for IPP, of course, but at least it can exist: Poser uses more industry-standard files and systems, while the more I learn about the increasingly proprietary way DS works, the more I think that it simply couldn't work with other programs, even if they tried, and it's a shame, since they've always made great figures, Genesis included, which I would love to use, but I'm afraid it looks like this is where we part ways.

tvining - Poser Pro 2010 & 2012 comes with PoserFusion which allows you to open Poser scene files in C4D, in addition to other softwares. I've tried the 2012 version with R13 and it works at least with V4. Also you can open Poser scene files in Vue so I'm not sure what you mean about Poser going out of their way to not be compatible.

Quote - ...If you have an investment in dynamic clothing for Poser, it will not work in DS, any version.  DS also does not support dynamic hair, any version. and DS dynamics will not work in poser.  Weight mapping for Poser, I don't believe works in DS.

...

PrecisionXXX - DS dynamics works in Poser as long as you export an obj file from DS.

You won't get an honest view of DAZ Studio from this forum as it is heavily Poser biased.I would suggest you take a look at the forums on the DAZ site for a much more balanced view.

Quote -  

You won't get an honest view of DAZ Studio from this forum as it is heavily Poser biased.I would suggest you take a look at the forums on the DAZ site for a much more balanced view.

 

Wouldn't the forums on DAZ have the same biased view from the DS4 side?

Quote -  

You won't get an honest view of DAZ Studio from this forum as it is heavily Poser biased.I would suggest you take a look at the forums on the DAZ site for a much more balanced view.

 

actually, here is about the only place that you will get a balanced opinion on the pro's and con's of each app.

censorship of posts is nowhere near enforced as much here as it now is at DAZ3D.

daz3d commons forum would be totally biased towards DS.

"Genesis is only a figure concept, not discrete figures, but a one figure does everything, so far, just not very well."

Are we really going to do this AGAIN? We just managed to calm things down after the last two wars.

"actually, here is about the only place that you will get a balanced opinion on the pro's and con's of each app."

LOL, uh yeah you'll forgive me if I have to politely disagree with that.

To the OP: Really, just try Studio and see if you like it. If not, stay with what you have.

tvining wrote:

Quote - plus the proprietary .dsb files for textures that you can't open and customize in Photoshop (which I do all the time with Poser-friendly jpg texture files) are another instance of DS trying to make you stay in DS only and use only official DS content rather than trying to make it compatible with other programs.

What products don't come with jpg textures? Everything I have from DAZ comes with jpg textures that I can open in Photoshop.

Spreading misinformation like this is part of what causes problems.

Coldrake

I'd prefer this not become another Daz vs Poser thread.  The person who posted originally wanted to know what the differences were between the Genesis system and conventional Poser figures and the advantages and disadvantages.  Each program has it's pluses and minuses, nothing's perfect.  There is no reason to fight about which is better, each person needs to decide what's best for them.

Grey_cat, Coldrake (et al): sorry about that, I was confused with how the DS textures worked, and where they lived in the DS folders--I found the jpgs after this was pointed out and they are fine in Photoshop--not intentional misinformation! Well, that's certainly better as regards DS.

Also, Witchdidi, I had forgotten about Poserfusion, since I've been using IPP for so long (I think it may have not existed when I first went to IPP)--just downloaded it for my Poser Pro and it does seem to work as advertised. That said, IPP seems to work better for my purposes, since I can edit the figure in C4D and can keep a "base" figure in C4D with all the clothing, morphs etc. and just export a pose from Poser rather than having to open the Poser figure each time in C4D. Also, with IPP, the figure mesh "lives" in C4D, so you can add hair and even do some mesh tweaking there. I can't say if the new Poserfusion 2012 and C4D13 works any different/better since I haven't used those versions.

Ultimately, I just hope Genesis and Poser eventually work together as well as V3 & V4 etc. Genesis is amazingly cool, and it's a drag not being able to use it in Poser and/or Cinema 4D.

Quote - "Genesis is only a figure concept, not discrete figures, but a one figure does everything, so far, just not very well."

Are we really going to do this AGAIN? We just managed to calm things down after the last two wars.

.

Let me put it this way then.  DS4 is a program in development still, which was designed to handle the figures built on the Genesis base.  The genesis is not a complete figure in that it is very restricted in what can be done without a character designed ON THE GENESIS BASE.  I can see no problems in someone attempting to define exactly what Genesis is, a concept requiring the addition of other software to be of it's full use.  V5 is a morph made for Genesis.  M5 is a morph made for Genesis.  They are not stand alone figures, they require Genesis.  I have no more problems with that than with Nickolas requiring M4 and the morphs++.  What seems to be the problem with stating the fact of how it is?

"What seems to be the problem with stating the fact of how it is?"

My only issue was with the "not very well" part.  Some people like to say that because Genesis tries to do it all, it doesn't do anything well. You don't have to buy V5 or the Legacy V4/M4/David morphs for Genesis to be useful, all you really need are the Evolution head and body morph sets, which you'd have to for the equivalent of any other figure out there anyway).

The only thing Genesis doesn't do all that well right now is work in Poser. Anyway, thanks for clarifying what you meant.

SnowS

tvining,

I hope you didn't think I was saying it was misinformation. I think it's totally unfair to call something misinformation when it's only confusion about one aspect or another in Poser or DS. The problem isn’t misinformation, but people going over the top with their opinions.

P.S. Love your movie

Quote - "What seems to be the problem with stating the fact of how it is?"

My only issue was with the "not very well" part.  Some people like to say that because Genesis tries to do it all, it doesn't do anything well. You don't have to buy V5 or the Legacy V4/M4/David morphs for Genesis to be useful, all you really need are the Evolution head and body morph sets, which you'd have to for the equivalent of any other figure out there anyway).

The only thing Genesis doesn't do all that well right now is work in Poser. Anyway, thanks for clarifying what you meant.

 

SnowS

Okay, however, part of what I'm trying involves an elementary school of the one room type where you have grades one through eight.  (I went to one of them.)  Now, trying to reproduce the way kids in that range move, it becomes obvious that there is no figure that will bend like kids do.  I see some things called extreme bends, which for a mesh may be.  For some one six or seven years, it's a normal bend.  In this regard, whether I used the Genesis figure or Penny would make no difference, they're both going to fall apart.  However, maybe due to unfamiliarity with undocumented software, I find the Genesis not as easy to pose and get an acceptable result.  For an end result that isn't what I want, more work than many other figures would be, I still say, not very well.  I do not have the cr2 exporter, or any morphs,  and as I'm not getting along with DS, it wouldn't make any sense to spend the money at this time. 

THis is a time of change, when several developments are being brought to a usable state.  I do not believe the end result is going to be any of the individual developments that are out there, but a compromise between many, allowing the use of many.  Genesis will probably be one of the ephemerals.  Here, flower, for a while, then as in it's present state, unable to adapt to other improvements, and gone.  The end result will be something different from what exists now, and something still to come.

Quote - You don't need the Pro package to run genesis. Advanced is going to cost you around the same price as Poser 9. The OP hasn't bought Morphs++ for the M4 or V4, so he will need to buy that or just the Evolution morphs for genesis... so it's about the same in cost. The $500 part comes in if you want the content developer kit with the rigging tools and zbrush and photoshop bridges.

Advanced is gonna run you $229.95 And P9 will run you about $150 at Amazon. The cost for the V4/M4 morphs will run you almost $30 But that is a moot point, because the author already owns P8, and V/M4, something I found out after I posted! (Yeah, brain fart, so sue me!)

You're right, you don't need the Pro package to run Genesis, you don't even need Advanced, all you need is $46.47 for the G5/Gen4 morphs...Oh, and a computing device! ;^)   

Quote - I don't think it's wise to give advice to buy something now on the hope that the thing you may want to use is eventually supported. That's like buying 4 tires for a car that you hope you can drive... the tires may not even be the right size, but you told someone to just buy it.

But it all comes down with what you want to work with and go from there.

Not really, because unlike tires, they are dependent on having a vehicle to put them on, whereas The genesis figure and D|S can be purchased seperately from Poser and V4. So my point was, to simply wait til the overall price came down on Genesis/D|S before they made a purchase with the condition that they did not have the money. Because it was much more expensive to purchase a Genesis/ D|S combo.

Which is moot anyways because I already realized that the OP, has V/M4 and poser 8 already, I was actually responsing to a poster rather than the OP, A brain-fart, and a misunderstanding on my part. Meh, there are worse things.

As it now stands, it's not much more expensive to go the Genesis/D|S @ $46 route vs the V/M 4 @ $29+ change, but that's up to the OP.  

I couldnt help but LOL at this..

Balanced view of Daz studio on the Daz forums...   

....

really?

Quote -  

You won't get an honest view of DAZ Studio from this forum as it is heavily Poser biased.I would suggest you take a look at the forums on the DAZ site for a much more balanced view.

 

DAZ Studio Advance is available in both 32 bit and 64 bit, Poser 9 is only 32 bit.

pp2012 is 64bit

Quote - DAZ Studio Advance is available in both 32 bit and 64 bit, Poser 9 is only 32 bit.

Err.

DS4 Standard is 32bit only. If you want 64bit you need to go to Advanced at least.

Poser 9 is 32bit only. If you want 64bit you need to go to Poser Pro 2012.

You can't compare Poser 9 and DS4A.

Same as you can't compare DS4 Standard with Poser Pro 2012.

You can compare Poser 9 and DS4 Standard, however, as both of those are the entry level.

Silke wrote:

Quote - You can't compare Poser 9 and DS4A. Same as you can't compare DS4 Standard with Poser Pro 2012.

You can compare Poser 9 and DS4 Standard, however, as both of those are the entry level.

Actually Poser Debut is entry level.

DAZ Studio 4 Standard = Poser Debut = Entry level

DAZ Studio 4 Advanced = Poser 9 = Intermediate

DAZ Studio 4 Pro = Poser Pro 2012 = Professional

Coldrake

I thought the upcoming web version was the entry level DS?

No, that's just a web app, there's no Poser equivilant forthcoming that I know of. The list I made above are the correct comparisons.

Coldrake

Quote - No, that's just a web app, there's no Poser equivilant forthcoming that I know of. The list I made above are the correct comparisons.

 

 

Coldrake

That is your opinion. I consider Debut a limited poser version - just like the web app

But I think the feature sets are all too different to make a one on one comparision and it would leave one DS4 version out

Daz Studio 4 pro is probably most equivalent to Poser Pro 2012 as it it geared to content creators.

Although it seems to be ok so far.. please keep the topic to what the OP asked for. Do not start "Mine is better than yours".  Give information you feel is useful to them.

Quote - > Quote - No, that's just a web app, there's no Poser equivilant forthcoming that I know of. The list I made above are the correct comparisons.

 

 

Coldrake

That is your opinion. I consider Debut a limited poser version - just like the web app

But I think the feature sets are all too different to make a one on one comparision and it would leave one DS4 version out

 

I guess we'll have to disagree. I consider DAZ Studio 4 Standard a limited DAZ Studio version. Feature wise and price wise I believe I made the correct comparisons. The web app is basically a something to play with online to show what can be done in DAZ Studio and to introduce people to 3D. In no way can it be compared to a $50 downloadable program.

Coldrake

I know those comparisons are more comfortable as they favor your prefered software but no, I wouldnt say they are really correct comparisons.  Poser debut is not from the same 'batch' of programs as P9 or pp2012.  It is based off of poser 8, from my understanding, so would maybe be more fair to compare it to something in the DS3 line.  I would hope an updated poser debut for the current generation is in the works but I havent heard anything to that effect yet.

Quote - No, that's just a web app, there's no Poser equivilant forthcoming that I know of. The list I made above are the correct comparisons.

 

 

Coldrake

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - No, that's just a web app, there's no Poser equivilant forthcoming that I know of. The list I made above are the correct comparisons.

 

 

Coldrake

That is your opinion. I consider Debut a limited poser version - just like the web app

But I think the feature sets are all too different to make a one on one comparision and it would leave one DS4 version out

 

 

I guess we'll have to disagree. I consider DAZ Studio 4 Standard a limited DAZ Studio version. Feature wise and price wise I believe I made the correct comparisons. The web app is basically a something to play with online to show what can be done in DAZ Studio and to introduce people to 3D. In no way can it be compared to a $50 downloadable program.

 

 

Coldrake

Since i have not seen the web app I cannot comment on it. I think DS4 standard lies somewhere between Debut and P9, PP2012 is comparable to the pro DS4. But feature wise they are all completely different. It is like comparing apples and oranges, but are fruit but taste completely different

Quote -  

I know those comparisons are more comfortable as they favor your prefered software but no, I wouldnt say they are really correct comparisons.  Poser debut is not from the same 'batch' of programs as P9 or pp2012.  It is based off of poser 8, from my understanding, so would maybe be more fair to compare it to something in the DS3 line.  I would hope an updated poser debut for the current generation is in the works but I havent heard anything to that effect yet.

Quote - No, that's just a web app, there's no Poser equivilant forthcoming that I know of. The list I made above are the correct comparisons.

 

 

Coldrake

I was just comparing what is available at the moment.

wimvdb, while both programs have features the other doesn't, for the most part they do the same things, albeit some of them in different ways.

By the way, the web app is a browser version.

Coldrake

Quote - Unforturnately, the low-poly mesh that is smoothed at render time in DS means that when it is exported (as an obj) to another program like Cinema 4D, where I do my rendering, the mesh looks worse than V4...

You don't have to export the base, low-poly mesh,  You can export it at any subdivision level you want.

Genesis loads with one level of subdivision already applied.  If you want to export the low-poly version (for creating morphs or whatnot), you have to set the subdivision level to zero.  But if you want a higher-resolution mesh, you can set the subdivision level at 1, 2, or whatever.

Thanks, blondie9999, I didn't realize that was even an option--it's kind of hidden away, but I found a thread that showed how. I gave it a try and it looks great when I export the mesh as an obj and bring it into C4D. I have to say, this has been very illuminating--I made a number of assumptions about Genesis/DS that I'm happy to be corrected about! I'll continue to test it out.

(PS: thanks Grey_cat! Glad you liked the movie.)

Hi tvining, do you get better results from DS subd than Cinema's subd?

I've played with the FBX export to get a base genesis (plus morphs) into C4D and could see no difference, in the smoothness, after using hypernurbs!

Loved the movie too, more lens flare in the next one please:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Hey, Prixat,

I've only really worked with the obj export, mostly in C4Dv10. I haven't tried the fbx yet--I understand that works best with C4D13(?). I plan to give it a try when I upgrade--having the morphs available in C4D would be nice--closer to IPP, which I'm used to. Exporting as an obj at the higher DS subd looked as good as I could want, as far as I could see. I'll try an obj with hypernurbs next time I mess with this--might be interesting.

(laughing) More lens flare? I have to say that's probably the most specific request I've gotten. I'll certainly give it a try.  ;-)

I'm not stuck on one program-or strongly anti anything. I am really enjoying PPro2012!

One of the things I most admired with Genesis was the natural bending- which is largely due to weight mapping. P9/Pro2012 have weight mapping. The free figure AntoniaWM- bends very well-and efforts are ongoing to Weight map V4- look at the RDNA forums for examples-she is approaching Genesis in natural bending. For me-the ability to morph one mesh into anything-is interesting-and impressive-but not absolutely compelling

Since I use multiple software packages as it is-I thought I'd give Genesis a "spin" with the free version of DS4 a few months ago.  I was impressed-but not with the rendering. I understood DS4 Advanced was able to use Image based lighting, HDRI, etc.

 Comment: I took advantage of sale and Plat Club and bought Studio4Advanced a few days ago. Unfortunately, it is a crashomatic- on my Mac.It took me 4 tries to load and texture V5 (Genesis)- then the UberSurface render was black.

My suggested solution is to upgrade to Mac OSX 10.7- but that would make other programs I use-crash. It seems to be stable on SOME Mac's with 10.7- and not others.

If you run an INTEL PC with the latest versions of Windows-you'll probably be OK. I understand AMD is a no go- but that is only a light survey on my part.

If I can get a refund for DS4Advanced- I'll keep V5 and play in the free version-I can always export to another program to render.

DAZ Studio runs fine on AMD based systems, both there CPUs and GPUs.

All I have is AMD, and processing power and GPUs were no issue (at least with up to date drivers). No documentation, a craptastic UI, a functional lack of dynamics (if I have to buy a separate program, which -also- has a UI that is....poorly designed, shall we say? to get dynamic hair, and a plugin that restricts my dynamic cloth to whatever the the parent company deigns to provide and little else, then the features don't functionally exist), and a continuation of 3 previous never-got-out-of-beta versions development plan. Those were the big issues regarding DS4 imnsho. The genesis figure system has potential, but as long as it is bound to their app, and forces you to find some way to make it work if your system doesn't like it, then frankly it is largely a non-starter for the Poser-centric crowd.

Which is proving to be a good thing, as said crowd is rediscovering that 'old' does not mean 'useless'. That the past 15 years of content can be brought to a functional standard that lets them stand together in the same scene and not look out of place. 

Quote - I'm not stuck on one program-or strongly anti anything. I am really enjoying PPro2012!

One of the things I most admired with Genesis was the natural bending- which is largely due to weight mapping. P9/Pro2012 have weight mapping. The free figure AntoniaWM- bends very well-and efforts are ongoing to Weight map V4- look at the RDNA forums for examples-she is approaching Genesis in natural bending. For me-the ability to morph one mesh into anything-is interesting-and impressive-but not absolutely compelling

Since I use multiple software packages as it is-I thought I'd give Genesis a "spin" with the free version of DS4 a few months ago.  I was impressed-but not with the rendering. I understood DS4 Advanced was able to use Image based lighting, HDRI, etc.

 Comment: I took advantage of sale and Plat Club and bought Studio4Advanced a few days ago. Unfortunately, it is a crashomatic- on my Mac.It took me 4 tries to load and texture V5 (Genesis)- then the UberSurface render was black.

My suggested solution is to upgrade to Mac OSX 10.7- but that would make other programs I use-crash. It seems to be stable on SOME Mac's with 10.7- and not others.

If you run an INTEL PC with the latest versions of Windows-you'll probably be OK. I understand AMD is a no go- but that is only a light survey on my part.

If I can get a refund for DS4Advanced- I'll keep V5 and play in the free version-I can always export to another program to render.

I have a i7 Macbook pro with 10.6 and Windows 7 machine with a core duo2 quad processor and DS4 works on both; haven't had the issues of crashing or ubersurface that you have had. And the later versions of DS4 has been a lot more stable with surface settings than the earlier versions.

But the when people compare Genesis with Poser 9/2012, the first thing they say is "Well poser has weight mapping too." Genesis is NOT about the weight mapping... it is about the morphs and what you can do with it. The weightmapping comes in when you talk about how what you create bends. That is the big difference. With Gen4 characters, most of the morphing stayed at the head, because if you tried to morph the body, then either you would have to create clothing that fit the new morphs, create magnets, or have have clothing that have those fits in them. Even extreme morphs, such as heavy, had issues because you would have poke through. Dimension3D's morphing clothes was a good investment because not every clothing item that you bought may not have all the morphs that you would use, and even then, I've had issues with inner thigh poke through. Also custom body shapes may need quite a few JCMs to fix issues when they bend as well.

I've found in Genesis that if I can change the way the body looks, such as if i think the thighs are too big, breasts aren't perky enough, needs longer or shorter legs or chest, or the butt or sternum needs to be adjusted I can change it and I don't have to ask content providers to make clothing for my new morph or learn how to make fits myself. The clothing still fits... and that's a big thing for those that don't like to work with making clothing fits and allows people to be more creative with their characters. You can make characters with hooved feet or alien bodies, or cartoon character and not have to worry about how much support that character gets from clothing creators.

Well said, Dale B.  PP2012 giving us the ability to add weight mapping will give  new life to many of the older figures as more people become proficient.  Anyone remembering Yamato and Ran-Ran, Can-Can, or Judy and An-An, those were done before any weight mapping was available, giving a kick to Posey and Judy.  Lack of support in clothing was probably more of a factor in their not still being in the front than lack of usability of the figures.  Nobody can say they won't be revisited and come out with figures that are up to speed in every way.

Quote - With Gen4 characters, most of the morphing stayed at the head, because if you tried to morph the body, then either you would have to create clothing that fit the new morphs, create magnets, or have have clothing that have those fits in them. Even extreme morphs, such as heavy, had issues because you would have poke through. Dimension3D's morphing clothes was a good investment because not every clothing item that you bought may not have all the morphs that you would use, and even then, I've had issues with inner thigh poke through. Also custom body shapes may need quite a few JCMs to fix issues when they bend as well.  

Therein lies the best argument for a workable, functional dynamic cloth you could have made.  I use the Gen 3 figures quite a bit, and I have Adam Thwaite's  (I believe) breast morphs for the PT girl.  I'm not above trying cloth designed for another figure on her, nor above exporting the .obj and doing a little creative butchery on it.  But I have largely dial spun morphs for the PT that put her in the somewhere of the area of 17 to 19 years, and no poke through.  Most cloth for V3 needs little alteration if any, and there are a lot of times the reverse is true, using PT clothing on V3 usually only needs scaling before the sim.  Taking conforming cloth converted to a .obj may have mixed results, but beyond a few minutes to try it, nothing lost if it doesn't work and I don't want to mess with it.  There is still a lot of life left in the older figures without being forced to jump through the DS4 hoops to make it work.  Genesis is only one of many developments that are still in process, as is Genesis itself.  Who knows what's being worked on and not discussed?  DS and Genesis are not the "be all-end all", probably more like an intermediate step on the way to the next development.  As can be said for all of them, any one of these steps may well be nothing more than a diversion from the direction that will eventually become the dominant factor. 

Quote - Therein lies the best argument for a workable, functional dynamic cloth you could have made.  I use the Gen 3 figures quite a bit, and I have Adam Thwaite's  (I believe) breast morphs for the PT girl.  I'm not above trying cloth designed for another figure on her, nor above exporting the .obj and doing a little creative butchery on it.  But I have largely dial spun morphs for the PT that put her in the somewhere of the area of 17 to 19 years, and no poke through.  Most cloth for V3 needs little alteration if any, and there are a lot of times the reverse is true, using PT clothing on V3 usually only needs scaling before the sim.  Taking conforming cloth converted to a .obj may have mixed results, but beyond a few minutes to try it, nothing lost if it doesn't work and I don't want to mess with it. 

However, that cloth needs a base shape to work from so that the cloth fits the right places. If i want that same cloth to fix a extreme creature morph that is much larger than what the cloth is made for, it's not going to work as well. Besides, how many complex pieces of dynamic clothing have you found that matches a conforming outfit, like armor?

Quote - There is still a lot of life left in the older figures without being forced to jump through the DS4 hoops to make it work.  Genesis is only one of many developments that are still in process, as is Genesis itself.  Who knows what's being worked on and not discussed?  DS and Genesis are not the "be all-end all", probably more like an intermediate step on the way to the next development.  As can be said for all of them, any one of these steps may well be nothing more than a diversion from the direction that will eventually become the dominant factor. 

I still use M4 for some renders, however for some of my characters like one of the young adult characters I made, I spent months asking around for someone to actually make an outfit that would work for his smaller frame. Also we've been asking for a David 4 type character with scaling... however that character would need someone to have support to make clothing for it or fits for it's morphs. In those cases, unless someone steps in to support it, it's pretty much the end of the line as far as those characters go. Weightmapping won't solve those issues, because that only pertains to how a character bends, not how clothing fits when i throw a non-standard or scaled morph at it. Take for instance Anastasia. It's based off of weightmapped Alyson 2. However, if you want clothes to fit her, you need to get the Wardrobe Wizard plugin for her because normal Alyson clothing won't fit. If you vary that shape any more, like if a morph pack is made for her, then you'll need to look into more plugins for those shapes or jump through hoops in 2012's toolset to get the clothing to fit.

The idea behind genesis is far less loops: what fits the base, fits the rest. Granted for extreme morphs, adjusting would be required for the outfit to look good. If i take genesis into Zbrush and sculpt it and bring it back, scale body parts and save the characters back, clothing will fit without me having to look for solutions to have the clothing fits. That's no loops at all. Now if you're talking about using an exporter to get it to Poser, we're talking about something different, because you aren't using the Genesis system at all... you're trying to make something work into something that it wasn't designed. And using an alternative method that achieves that is going to more time than adopting the actual system.

Quote - The idea behind genesis is far less loops: what fits the base, fits the rest. Granted for extreme morphs, adjusting would be required for the outfit to look good. If i take genesis into Zbrush and sculpt it and bring it back, scale body parts and save the characters back, clothing will fit without me having to look for solutions to have the clothing fits. That's no loops at all. Now if you're talking about using an exporter to get it to Poser, we're talking about something different, because you aren't using the Genesis system at all... you're trying to make something work into something that it wasn't designed. And using an alternative method that achieves that is going to more time than adopting the actual system.

 

 

 

To go back to some of what fell to snippage, armor, for those that use it, okay, but for me, that and all the skimpware fantasy, I don't have any.  Not my thing. Hoops, the biggest hoop to jump through is DS4 itself in any of the many temporary in beta iterations so far released.  OR, the smallest hoop, the hardest one to get past is the program which was designed to support the Genesis figure.  And you have Genesis, the "be all-end all", what need would you have for a David 4?   Genesis, by your own words, is so much supererior, so much easier to use, any thought of a David 4 would seem to be heresy. 

I have V4 and M4, morphs for exactly two characters that I sometimes use.  I also have Judy and Don, I would say I use them probably ten times as much as any other figures.  Now with Antonia WM, I can see where Judy will be used less, probably V4 not at all.  Granted, not much support for her, yet.  But what clothing is available, I think I've passed exactly one download of what has been offered.  What is important in what you do, you have to remember, is specific to you only as also applies to what is important to me.   

There was also a five year period that I used only P5, and a small amount of content, maybe three CD's worth.  The reason, I wasn't on line at all, voluntarily that way.  In that time, I learned to work in the face room fairly well, the cloth room a little, playing with some of the other functions that worked, but not all that well.  I had, and still have, a couple early versions of DS, but after an initial trial, they lived on CD and not in a computer.  I now have DS3A and DS4 free version, both installed on a computer that I never do anything I'm serious about.  For another week or so, when I get a new computer, that one becomes my internet box and nothing else.  DS4 will not be reinstalled, there is no need for my use. 

And were I in the middle of a project, as the OP stated, switching to DS now would be exceeding foolish.  He's already using P8, I believe, familiar with it, which means the nonexistent documentation for DS might as well be written in Sumerian linear A.  The number of newbie threads in the commons asking for help trying to get DS to recognize there is new content attests to how intuitive it is to use.  Of course, they could always refer to the documentation, maybe in 2022 or later.  "This feature coming soon" doesn't help.

Quote - To go back to some of what fell to snippage, armor, for those that use it, okay, but for me, that and all the skimpware fantasy, I don't have any.  Not my thing.

Hoops, the biggest hoop to jump through is DS4 itself in any of the many temporary in beta iterations so far released.  OR, the smallest hoop, the hardest one to get past is the program which was designed to support the Genesis figure.  And you have Genesis, the "be all-end all", what need would you have for a David 4?   Genesis, by your own words, is so much supererior, so much easier to use, any thought of a David 4 would seem to be heresy. 

When I referred to David 4, I spoke of before genesis. So genesis does in effect make him, and stephanie obsolete, since the scaling and body types those characters bring are no longer needed.

Quote - I have V4 and M4, morphs for exactly two characters that I sometimes use.  I also have Judy and Don, I would say I use them probably ten times as much as any other figures.  Now with Antonia WM, I can see where Judy will be used less, probably V4 not at all.  Granted, not much support for her, yet.  But what clothing is available, I think I've passed exactly one download of what has been offered.  What is important in what you do, you have to remember, is specific to you only as also applies to what is important to me.   

There was also a five year period that I used only P5, and a small amount of content, maybe three CD's worth.  The reason, I wasn't on line at all, voluntarily that way.  In that time, I learned to work in the face room fairly well, the cloth room a little, playing with some of the other functions that worked, but not all that well.  I had, and still have, a couple early versions of DS, but after an initial trial, they lived on CD and not in a computer.  I now have DS3A and DS4 free version, both installed on a computer that I never do anything I'm serious about.  For another week or so, when I get a new computer, that one becomes my internet box and nothing else.  DS4 will not be reinstalled, there is no need for my use. 

And were I in the middle of a project, as the OP stated, switching to DS now would be exceeding foolish.  He's already using P8, I believe, familiar with it, which means the nonexistent documentation for DS might as well be written in Sumerian linear A.  The number of newbie threads in the commons asking for help trying to get DS to recognize there is new content attests to how intuitive it is to use.  Of course, they could always refer to the documentation, maybe in 2022 or later.  "This feature coming soon" doesn't help.

But the main point of this conversation is choice in characters, not features of a program. Yes, the OP has poser 8, but he doesn't have much render experience with either program, so either one is going to have a learning curve. Using any of the newer characters is going to require an investment into an upgrade to either DS4 or Poser 9/2012. So it really comes down to which characters are going to serve his/her particular needs now and going forward, not cloth room, SSS, and the such. On the female side, there are many options available, but not so on the male side.

There isn't much choice for the genesis male either. I counted 8 items in the DAZ store (meshes, not texture sets). The M4, D3, M3 can be added if you buy the autofit addon.

For the figures which work in Poser there is probably a bit more if you take the M4, D3 and M3 and include the James and other figures

With no documentation for DS4, and an entirely different system, basic program, method of use, that makes DS the better choice?  I think not. The learning curve for DS is nearly as steep and long as that for Blender.  Poser at least has fairly decent documentation included, a huge improvement from the "manual" they sent with P5 which was more confusion than use.  Infinitely better than DS, which is, "Figure it out yourself". 

I'm not a fan of "V-things" or "M-things", I may use them when I'm forced to, but that's getting to be less and less.  DS4 has a free version, but V5 is far too expensive for me to look at, considering there isn't any way to use her beyond DS conveniently.  And DS does very little without the infusion of large amounts of money for the myriad plugins, that may not work with the next version.  Third party solutions to deficiency in the basic program is not a viable solution.  It's one that DAZ has no control over, and no guarantee it will continue.  Anastasia and Antonia are indications of what might come next, I'm just waiting to see if SM will pick up the ball and run with it.

Quote - There isn't much choice for the genesis male either. I counted 8 items in the DAZ store (meshes, not texture sets). The M4, D3, M3 can be added if you buy the autofit addon.

For the figures which work in Poser there is probably a bit more if you take the M4, D3 and M3 and include the James and other figures

 

 

Nothing really wrong with any of the Poser men after Dork, Dork being "Old Woodenface".  I use Don  a lot, James, he's the guy brought up on the wrong side of the tracks, but not always.  The others, occasionally.  M3 almost never, M4, as Nickolas, but beyond that, no use for M4.

Just took a look over on rdna at Poppy for Antonia by A_.  Left money behind.  A face that looks like a face, a real one, like you might actually see alive.  Didn't need to look twice.  Link is in the Antonia WM thread.