Ha ha...yeah I know exactly what you are saying...I compose music as well, and I spent about six "&*$!!##" hours trying to figure out how to drag and drop a Kontakt 3 sequence into the midi host, the thing was sooo complex..I was just bewildered....and angry as well.
I spent the whole afternoon just getting nowhere...so I totally sympathize with you on this.

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I´ve tried several times with DS but I've never been happy with the workflow which is annoying because I think the GUI is much better in DS.

Yeah I struggled with the workflow in DS for quite a while.
Until I discovered how to create my own rooms..this was a real eye opener for me.
I enclosed a screen shot.(at the top of this post)
Each Activity Tab (outlined in yellow) is a workroom, with a custom set of tools, views,camera postions, save and load locations and more...all you do is set up a room how you like to work, hit the tab and you are in a new app so to speak.
Not many DS users know about this feature (it takes a little work to understand it) but once you do...your workflow will increase dramatically.

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Thing is, there is no point in having a superior renderer if you're struggling with a single pose or if you're not satisfied with your shaders.
I´m very happy with the new features in P8 so I think I´ll be sticking with it, at least for now.

Again very true...I still like the Poser shaders and stuff too...I dont use DS for everything...not at all.
I am a long time Poser user and it fits like an old glove, but I am using DS more and more and am very happy with it .
I think I may buy Poser 8 soon tho...there are some features in it I would like to use.
Cheers

Quote -
hman, while it is true that 3Delight is used in other apps and may be the better renderer that does not mean that you can use that power easily in Studio. You IO'm pretty sure you cannot use the same shaders as a Maya user can, and you don't have the same options.

Yes Agreed...that is absolutely true, however the shaders in DS are getting better and better, so its good they have a renderer that is capable of those advanced types of shaders. 

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About crystal-clear renders, well - if you choose a low shading rate and switch off texture filtering, you get a crystal-clear render in Firefly as well. I'm the last to say that Firefly does not have bugs, but it works for me, I get good renders from it. I've got good results with depth mapped shadows in the past, but recently I very much prefer ray traced shadows, because they look much better.

Yes again..true, the Firefly is fine for a lot of things.
But even with a low shading rate in the Firefly and texture filtering off...I still cant get the level of detail I can in the 3Delight render...and that is important to me.
However there are many amazing renders done in the Firefly...its the artist that makes the difference...and I realize that is the most important thing always.
I still use the Firefly for some things...because I find the Poser shader tree a little easier to use than the DSA ones...they are a bit more visual (IMO)
As far as the shadow maps go...yes raytracing is nicer, but sometimes shadow maps are good to use as well, but they are unusable in larger scenes in Poser.
I was on the beta test when the Firefly was first implemented (when Steve Cooper was the boss) and I complained about this back then (before DS was anything much) but they didn't do anything about it.
Same in Poser 6...they did nothing about...so I did no more betas from then on.
Now what I have found ...is that using both along with AO works best...you can see an example here in a city I built and developed the lighting for as well
(you have to use the magnifying glass to zoom in)
http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/hjmann//
In other words it would be nice if they fixed this problem with the shadow maps so they are usable in larger scenes...along with a bit of fine tuning in the detail department.
One good programmer could do that fairly easily...maybe SM may look at this?

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If you get better renders from 3Delight, that's great. The renderer most proably has more options then Firefly has at the moment, but many of them cannot be used from D|S at the moment, and others need to be bought. And, to my experience, Firefly isn't half as bad as you make it here.

It wasn't my intention to make it sound bad...basically all I am saying is its not as good as the 3 Delight (even with DSA current shaders).
This is not a trumpet call about Daz or DSA.
As you probably know the 3 Delight is developed by DNA research... not Daz!!...and thats a good thing because it's their baby, and it is developed aggressively, whereas the Firefly will get updated in time by SM,  therefore it probably will be much slower in it's development, because SM have a lot on their plate.
BUT!! that aside...a good Poser user that knows the app and has an artistic eye...will get brilliant renders from the Firefly in most situations.
Again I use both apps regularly...they both have their strengths (and I am glad they are both there...competition is always good)
Cheers

Quote -
I was also looking for more insight on the elements of DSA that would make it worth learning. The different interface still keeps me away.

It did me at first too ( as a long time Poser user)...BUT read my post above!
All you have to do is get used to the Activity Tabs (the equivalent of a Poser room) but about a hundred times more versatile.

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Without having a solid reason to learn it, I'm more likely to take the time to learn Hexagon modeling than a program that will only do things similar to Poser. That's not a knock against DSA--it's more the limits of my available free time. I'd rather spend it learning something completely new that I cannot do right now (modeling) than something that is only mildly different than what I already know.

DSA offers many things that compliment and empower a Poser user actually...I use both.
Personally I much prefer the 3 Delight renderer (as mentioned above) and I use DSA more than Poser now.
But I like both and DSA is not that hard to learn...4 or 5 hard days will get you well on the way.
As far as Hexagon goes...you can model anything in it.
I have used it since it was a beta by Eovia ...well before Daz bought it...its an awesome app, and many many users that use it...still prefer it over Modo, and many other modeling apps, its very powerful, yet easy to use....definitely worth learning.
Daz have neglected it somewhat and they cop a lot of flak on the forums about this...they have closed a few down LOL!!
But they are starting to get the message, this is one of the best modelers out there and they need to realize that and build on it.
Cheers
Hmann

http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/hjmann/
http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/hjmann/Andoria-Night/

Quote - 1. For the record: despite the title of this thread, I was never asking the question whether I should CHOOSE BETWEEN Poser 8 and Daz Studio Advanced. I have P8 and will use it. I basically wanted to know if I would find the power of DSA compelling enough to use it as well. But I'm well aware that threads take on a life of their own.

I dont have Poser 8...I am still using 7 right now....I have used Poser consistently since version 4 and have built content for Poser for nearly 10 years.
I have DSA as well...is it better than Poser? well IMO probably yes!!
Definitely in some areas...the 3 Delight renderer is a better renderer than the Firefly period, if someone tells you differently they havent learnt both renderers thoroughly.
The 3 Delight renderer is used in SI XSI and Maya and other hi end apps and is used for many movies (chronicles of Narnia...Superman returns, it is an incredibly accurate renderer...far more accurate than the Firefly renderer (but its a good idea to set the shading rate down to 0.2 or thereabouts to get the best results)
Now the Firefly is a great renderer for portraits and the like (and many users get stunning renders from it...that is a fact) but not that good for large scenes, I could write pages on the reason why...but I wont , suffice to say...you wont see the 3 Firefly renderer used in Maya or SI XSI or Max etc..
Thats reason enough to use DSA.
Then theres the subject of interface customization...Poser has set rooms...in DSA by learning how to customize the interface you can have as many rooms as you like dedicated to different tasks...like lighting, rigging, texturing etc.. not only that but each of these rooms can have a different tool set, and directory content location specified on the hard drive to load from.
What that means is you dont have to navigate from one content directory to another, it can be set to load from DS content as well as Poser content etc...each one from a different room...and screen layout etc...is all customizable in each room.
In this area its light years ahead of Poser...and even many DS users dont know about these features in DS.

The dynamic cloth in DSA although good is too exclusive IMO tho...I prefer the Poser dynamic cloth, and also I like the usabilty of the Poser shaders as well, so I wont be ditching Poser, but it is taking a back seat more and more.

To see some of the renders in DS I put a link to a city I recently built and rendered in DS...hit the thumb, then the magnifying glass to see a full view of each pic, then F11 to switch to full screen.

Andoria-City!
Cheers

Quote - But I simply haven't been able to get as good renders is DS as in Poser and I really miss the python scripts and IK abilities.  And now that Poser has IDL and faster render speeds I don't think I´ll be switching to DS anytime soon.

Hi
Ive built stuff for Poser for nearly 10 years and beta tested the app too (prior to Smith Micro).
I have Poser 7 (havent upgraded to eight)
I use both apps...but recently I do prefer Daz Studio 3 advanced.
On the subject of rendering...well the basic Firefly is Renderman code that was licensed by Curious Labs at the time of version 5.
Now that Renderer has been upgraded a little over time, but the engine is basically the same.
On the other hand the Daz studio 3d delight Renderer by DNA is also used in Maya, Soft Image XSI etc... hi end apps that demand accuracy in rendering wether it comes to shadow maps, IBL lighting, Global Illumination whatever.
What I am trying to say is this, there is no way that the Firefly is even on an equal par the the 3 delight Renderer.
Now if you get better renders from the Firefly...you know it better thats all.
With the 3 Delight renderer in DS3 you have to wind the shading rate down to 0.2 or thereabouts to get totally detailed renders...and you will get them.
Now if you render a 1 pixel transmapped hair texture with a lot of strands in the Firefly you will see distortion lines, you wont see them with the 3 delight renderer simply because it traces more accurately.
Also place a light several hundred feet from a figure (like trying to simulate sunlight etc...) and use the shadow maps and you will be amazed how inaccurate they are in the Firefly.
Now of course you would usually use Raytracing or IBL etc..or some kind of global illumination, but it gives you an idea how innacurate the Firefly renderer is.
Now that said...I am not trying to bag Poser...I still use it a lot, and a lot of areas in it are very useful...But I have to say the renderer is not in the same league as the 3 delight Renderer which has been used in the Chronicles of narnia...Superman returns etc...

Cheers 

Robo Actually I was looking again and it appears to be on the inner section too. I used that kit extensively while testing Poser 6 and was generally very happy with how it worked, nothing like this. First thing is turn of the ground textures, have you maybe enabled 2 ground meshes? if they are sitting alongside each other that may create this kind of problem. If not...pull everything out of the scene...use one light only, and one ground, set the renderer to Poser 4 with all 5 options enabled and render...start from there and let me know. Cheers Harvey Mann

Hi Robo Hmmm I actually did a lot of testing with the World Kit in Poser 6...and actually I got it to work better than in Poser 5. I never encountered spots like that tho, they look like they are on the second layer of texture maps. There are 3 maps..one in the centre for detail, one just out from it (less detail), and one right on the outside. Those spots are on the less detailed map (the second) try disabling the texture...and see if they are still there...alternatively try enabling poly smoothing...you can email me with the results. As far as updating it, Yes there will be updates for Poser 6, they will be major updates tho, so I cant deleiver them immediately...all this takes time. My Poser 6 beta is also no longer working (it was time coded) so they are apparently sending me a release version...when I get that i will start looking at the kit. Cheers Harvey mann

Hmmm About UV Mapper pro version 3 ...sounds interesting! One thing Steve could do is add the ability to add polylines point to point manually on the mesh without destroying the UVs. Ultimate does this in subdivide...but you cant just add a polyline ...if the next version of UV mapper could do this it would be amazing!!! and very very usefull. Cheers Harvey

(Quote) kidding aside, Harvey, this has been known for quite a while :) Damn!!! Just goes to show how often I visit the Curiouslabs site.....LOL!!!) Harvey

Actually I have been using amapi 7 (thats not a free program) Its their completely re written version since 6.1 (I LOVE IT!!!!) its light years better...(took them over 2 years to re write it) The upcoming Amapi Pro version will be great as well. I tried Rhino...its nice! but for me personally Amapi 7 is more intuitive...you can set up older style menus like Rhino or you can grab new tools by simply doing a right swipe with the mouse (very fast when you get used to it) The Amapi designer costs a lot less than Rhino as well...its great!!! And of course if you buy Max or LW then you are buying a whole lot more than just a modeling program and if you want to model for Poser only...you may not need all that extra animation and rendering power. Cheers Harvey Mann

I have both and have used both extensively. (UV Mapper Pro and Ultimate Unwrap 3d) UV mapper pro is better for basic stuff...its stretching and unwrapping of edges is great and so on...also if you are working from Poser you dont have to re scale the tiny Poser size model.(all other apps use a much larger scale...so Ultimate requires this...re scaling is no problem though, and you need to do this to see the model in realtime 3d in the window) However overall Ultimate unwrap 3d is much much more powerful......you can subdivide any part of the model with out destroying the UVs (very usefull), you can pan the cAMERA around the 3d model in real time and point it at vertices and UV map them in real time in 2d (AWESOME FEATURE) also you can grab a line of vertices and straighten them vertically or horizontally in one stroke (doing this on UV mapper Pro is a PAIN!!! and slow as hell!! I would get both...they dont do the same job, rather they do different areas in a way. So to sum up...for basic Poser work...UV MAPPER PRO For just about everything else ULTIMATE UNWRAP To be honest Ultimate Unwrap is like a version 3 of UV Mapper pro...its way ahead. Cheers Harvey Mann

Basically I think Poser 5 is better and definitely worth getting! I have 3 machines..Amd XP 1800, P4 Northwood 1.8ghz and a new HyperThread P4 3.00Ghz with 2 gig ram...it works fine on all of them. (flys on the p3 hyperthread!!!) I agree for faster scenes Poser 4 is better, but Poser 5 offers a lot more and now that E frontier has become the parent company then Poser has become a whole new ballgame....its a very strong possibility that Poser could end up with one of the best renderers in the business. Check out their gallery using the pathtracer renderer http://shade.e-frontier.co.jp/en/gallery/index.html this technology will almost definitely find its way into Poser or be able to import Poser scenes. OK Poser 5 was rushed...but its working good now and I dont see any reason to not use it...and it makes a lot of sense to have it so you are on the upgrade path to newer versions. Plus I LOVE THE CLOTH ROOM ...I have written heaps of tutorials for it along with my dynamic clothes packs ..and its great...hey Poser 4 does long flowing clothes that look like shit. Thats reason enough to buy Poser 5 in my opinion, the materials are great too. Nope...get Poser 5 and maybe use Poser 4 for quick scenes...Poser now has a parent company that has some pretty happening software...so get it!!! Thats my hang on it anyway. Cheers Harvey Mann

Hi Steve and Karen. I am really really sorry to hear this. I tried to ring Steve this morning and his number had been changed so I knew something must be up. I just have to say that people like Steve and Karen are very rare in the larger world of software corporations where it is basically impersonal and most friendships/partnerships are in the name of business and profit only. Steve was not like this, he gave CLabs an invaluable personal touch and that is simply not replaceable, CLabs will NOT BE THE SAME!! Many of the businesses related to Poser (websites etc...) suffer from this money orientated impersonalism, so the very fact that Steve and Karen were involved in CLabs and kept a real personal and genuine touch to all their dealings is nothing short of remarkable. I am very very sad to hear this!! Best Wishes Harvey Mann

I really really like it...I did a recent render with the Firefly and then the same render exactly with the Poser 4 renderer...and the Firefly was much better. Mind you for some things the Poser 4 renderer is still really good, but not in complexly light scenes with different surfacing materials than the usual Mike and Vicky photoshop generated texture maps. Harvey

Hi dave. Yeah the hair room is not totally easy to do...but you will get the hang of it. The thing is there are a lot of styles that are achieved by trans mapped hair that are near impossible to create using the strand based hair. I was going to give up making trans mapped hair and concentrate on worlds and clothes and stuff, but I think I will still make some newer trans mapped styles. Cheers Harvey