There will always be many different reasons for different people doing artwork Christie, but I am not sure I can ever come to terms with Tracey Emin's unmade bed. I am probably only jealous because she got a few thousand pounds, for a tent with the names of all the men she had slept with sown on to it. If Saachi has money to burn, could he please not burn it, and send it my way, lol.

No nanotyrannus, they do not accept photography as art, so for them computer graphics comes a close second to that. In reality though even in Vue, there is always a reasonable degree of creativity, materials, atmospheres, creating your terrains which can be randomly generated or modelled with a definite idea in mind. Its all about opinions I suppose, and the time may come when computer art will be up there with the rest. Dave

Well thanks for the interesting responses, I have been doing conventional sculpting/modelling for a living, and hope to eventually move over more to computer graphics. If I want to do that of course, I have to learn the modelling programs, simply because not everything I want will be available ready-made. Having said that I agree with nanotyrannus, for commercial images, if a ready model is available to buy then you might as well use it, as a client wouldnt care, that option isnt open in conventional sculpting.

I havent found the task of cutting out a required alpha the problem deevee, you must be missing out, PSP has all the tools to make the task just minutes, background eraser, smart edge selection etc, modelling takes me far more time. I am just never satisfied with the shadows; a flat object if representing anything other than a flat object will not cast a convincing shadow, so it limits the position it can be used in.

I would agree with Djeser that it should also be about fun, there should also be some pleasure in graphics for commercial purposes, but I was interested in what others felt about what is considered acceptable methods. If those that are involved with computer graphics are not agreed on what is right, then the so-called legitimate art world will not accept computer graphics as real art. The fact that Sir Nicholas Serota boss of the Tate gallery, accepted Tracey Emin's unmade bed as real art, and they accept weird gigantic sculptures that are constructed by others not the alleged sculptor, brings them no nearer to accepting computer graphics as a legitimate form of art.

My reason for saying to those that can create their own stuff, dont lose it, is because I have seen people on other forums, with great creative talents, bog themselves down with repetitive work, because they got the feedback bug, and want to do lots of images for quick feedback, and that is a shame.

As Walther says in the main 3D-art world such as films, of course they have different people for different tasks. As he agreed though it is down to what is right for each individual, and for me after a while, using too much ready made stuff made me lose interest, I wasnt getting the satisfaction that I got from conventional art. I make it quite clear though they are my personal feelings for my images, that does not say that it is right for everybody. I think all of us that respect our viewers would agree though, that however you produce your images, they should be the best you can do at that point in your development, and not purely knocked together for feedback.

Anyway I really only started this thread for feedback, I was getting withdrawal symptoms, I havent posted an image since last year, lol. Dave

I export lots of models from Wings to Vue 4 and have not had any problems, do you check the box in WIngs export dialogue that says Vue d'Esprit workaround. If you already do that then I would have no other answer, it could simply be because you have a different make of computer to mine. I have found it so frustrating at times that different set-ups have different quirks, what somebody else does on their computer doesn't neccesarily work on mine. If you still can't sort it out, why not try the Renderosity Wings forum, or Wings own forum, they may have some answers. Dave

Thanks James, I would suspect you are right about doing updates before installing programs, but on the advice of a Microsoft engineer, I tried the programs I use most for a while, before the Windows updates, to see if there were any problems with any of the programs after a fresh start. Stupidly I changed the colour depth again, but I hadnt thought to tell the Microsoft engineer about that. I am notoriously bad at remembering to do Windows updates, so usually there are a lot to download when I do it, and I wouldnt normally uninstall all my programs before doing it. Other than the very necessary, about 3, my background running programs are all disabled in System configuration utility, and this is the first time Windows update has proven to be a problem. I would agree on 32 bit colour depth, you should be able to change to that, and the information I got on user exe only says changing to 32 bit can cause problems with user exe, by changing back to 16 bit, file checker was okay. That of course doesnt mean to say all will now be fine, if my particular machine was one that didnt like the change, then other problems could still be lurking. My point is that you shouldnt have to change Windows settings to assist one program, all others work okay where previews are concerned. I tend to think if everything is working okay for the majority of programs then leave the Windows settings alone, I just wish I had stuck with that rule this time. My graphics card is Nvidia GeForce4 MX, and I am on Windows 98. Thanks also Irene, unfortunately I was unable to do anything other than put the computer recovery CD in, nothing was working, and I could not uninstall anything. Dave

Hi Tim, yes I do intend to upgrade Windows, or alternately have a new computer and use that for most of my graphics programs, whilst using the existing one for the Internet connection. I know many that do this, so if you should be unfortunate enough to catch anything nasty on the net, which is not impossible even with all precautions taken, you are not so likely to affect your important stuff. The other benefit of that is I would still be able to operate my old Meta Creations Painter 5 which I like a lot, and other older graphics programs on the old computer, as I have been told that some programs like Painter 5, will not run on XP, and maybe 2000. This time though I shall take a bit more time to look at set-ups more geared to graphics, when I moved from conventional sculpting to computer graphics 3 years ago, I didnt know how to even operate a computer. I just bought a system all Hewlett Packard, at the time with a reasonable sized processor, AMD Athlon 850, upgraded the memory to the maximum it will take 512. I had hoped that software would take care of itself, and to be honest, most of it has. I didnt really want the hassle of changing this and that to try to suit individual software, and then finding it had messed up the operation of something else. At age 57, I really wanted all my time to be devoted to developing my abilities with the graphics programs, and have spent little computer time doing much else. Hence my posts are all in one lump, as I havent even got round to learning how to use HTML properly.:) Thanks for your suggestions Tim; I shall keep them in mind. Dave

Hi e-on, I suddenly thought to check after your last message to see that the setting had remained at the new setting, and it hadnt, it was back to its original setting. According to my Windows book after changing colour depth it is not necessary to restart so I didnt the first time, but this time I did a restart, and it worked, plus the preview display is now correct. Thanks very much for that. Dave

Hi e-on, yes I did, sorry I should have made it clearer in my earlier answer at number 53. It made no change to the situation. Dave

Thank's Dale for you further suggestions I will go and check them out. Thanks also Grunthor/Jim for accepting my apology, it's a pity in a way, that when a post is deleted, it doesnt leave an indication that it has been deleted, as happens on some forums. That avoids following posts looking totally out of place, or getting misread as I had done. Dave

Thanks eon but still no luck, the graphics card is an Nvidia GeForce4 MX, it has the latest driver. I have seen reference to the fact that Vue can have problems with Nvidia maybe thats where the problems lay, obviously I would not change my graphics card because one program was incompatible with it, at present Im am still on Windows 98. I just cant figure out why some of these problems appeared with updates, the problem with the options sudden failure, and then the next update it worked okay again, it just doesnt tie in with the performance of other programs. I only put the preview fault on because it was easy to show, but why should it suddenly appear after an update, if the graphics card is causing it, then logically it should have been like from the first time I used Vue. I do find the programs that behave by far the best are self contained no installation, like C4D, just delete the folder if you wished to uninstall for any reason, I hope more software companies go down that route in future. The first time I ever uninstalled Vue and then checked, half the stuff was still in, with a self contained delete the folder set-up that couldnt happen, and I dont know whether Vue shares files, but I am sure that in some cases that causes problems and clashes. Anyway thanks for trying, if you can come up with any idea why the use of Vue causes the lockup when I try to shut the computer down, unless I have everything off in start-up programs, that would be most helpful. Dave

I owe Grunthor an apology for misreading his comment regarding Purlonious; I had not realised that there had originally been a comment from Purlonious on the thread. I read Grunthors comment as suggesting I was Purlonius using a different name, and as many could tell you I loathe this practice of multi ids, so was a little disgruntled, I would ask Grunthor to accept my apologies. Thanks Dale for you suggestions, it is appreciated, I do actually run Win doctor on a regular basis, and apart from occasional registry errors if I have installed or uninstalled something, I get no other problems other than occasional incorrect shortcuts. Even reformat did not solve this problem, or the shutdown problem, the problem shown does not occur in any other programs previews, and in fact did not occur in Vue until directly after one of the bug fix updates, on the mouse the answer is no I do feel that its a clash between Vue and my set-up, as I have known others with programs that worked fine on mine, did not on theirs, that has usually been solved by the software company in question, looking closer at why certain set-ups have a problem. Obviously this particular problem isnt major but I find the shut down problems a lot of hassle, I have learned to live with Vues other intermittent problems. Thanks anyway for a constructive response. Dave.

I thought I would put on an example of the Vue preview for an imported texture, it can differ, sometimes it is mostly program icons, this preview contains Vue icons and various Windows buttons, this only started occurring after a bug fix update. Eon had no answer to it, though I was told that I had not been the only person to have the problem. This happens with everything other than Windows explorer and systray disabled in start-up programs, Eons answer was reload Windows which for me means reformat, as I dont have a separate Windows CD, and refomating makes no difference. Maybe its my Windows operating system that should be ditched, the fact that it works happily with all other graphics programs proves nothing, and Vue cannot be at fault, because some people have no problems. Or maybe as Grunthor said its the operators fault, I suppose I cut and pasted all the buttons and icons into the preview Window, sorry to be facetious, but I didnt start the facetious comments. Had Grunthor looked at my gallery he would have seen that I dont dislike Vue, and have done a reasonable amount of work with it, I just dont like the problems, is that being unreasonable, if so I am sorry. I will just say again, it is not the fault of my set-up, it is quite obviously a problem Vue has with my set-up, and those things need to be ironed out. Eon do what Wings has done, (even though Wings is a free program), get your own forum and let people work out the problems on that, then people would not need to voice them elsewhere. Dave

Since 4.12, Yes I do run Vue 4 relatively trouble free. I initially used to be able to use background draw, but somewhere along the update line, and I had to switch that off because my Vue display messed up if it was on. My point about many bugs was prior to 4.12 and I think it is fair to say that it took some time to get there, it was prior to those updates that I stopped using it for a year. That still leaves me with having to shut down start up programs in msconfig, to avoid the use of Vue stopping me closing down the computer other than by switching off. I am extremely cautious of free programs and have only a strictly limited number of ones that I feel are okay like, Wings and Lavasofts Adaware, programs known not to carry spyware. I dont have games installed, Shareware I dont entertain, because far too much of it carries advertisers Trojans, Like yourself I wouldnt touch pirated software however cheap, even if I had no particular time for the company that produced the software, on the same basis that I object to any abuse of the owners copyright and rightful income and that includes mesh models etc. I have reinstalled Vue a number of times, each time I reinstall it, the vehicles objects thumbnails duplicate and I have to delete them, long grass appears in plants which the program doesnt have, only as an extra. The computer has been reformatted, so maybe the Hewlett Packard set up is faulty, who knows, but I would expect that to reflect in other programs, which it doesnt, so as I said maybe Vue just doesnt like the set-up. I have tried to get a reason for problems such as the options sudden failure after an update in the past, (which works again now) but eon had no answers, and dont answer when you keep asking. Their answer that it must be Windows or something else, may be right, but my question is why just Vue. As I said the still permanent problems are the import preview picture that started after one update, the computer shut down problems after using Vue, other things are not predictable like freezeups with Booleans, but less since I shut everything down in start-up programs. I had avoided putting my views on the program for some time, because I fear that in the software world you are always expected to say its brilliant in all ways or say nothing. The problems I had with a program upgrade from another company, as mentioned in my last post, proved that criticism wasnt acceptable. I had a letter published in Computer Arts praising their software and support to the skies, then their support rep packed up and the upgrade came out, I couldnt use it for 5 months till the next upgrade, then it was okay again. I realised then that the high standard of support was down to that one man who had left, and I was left floundering for 5 months. Eventually I did take them to task for having ignored me that long, and they acknowledged some had problems but they didnt have any answers, but apologised then for having ignored me. I dont mention their name because its not relevant to this forum. I saw other people with their program get stick if they dared to critisice the program for any faults it had on their systems, but I had learned that blind loyalty to a software company did not help me one iota, if my problems were too difficult for them to try to solve. I will say that in principle Vue is great program, and if you experience no problems I am pleased thats so, but programs do have problems on some set-ups, and it is unlikely to be the set-ups fault unless that is reflected in at least 25% of the other software installed. Sorry about the mention of Wings Guitta, but its an amazingly good little modelling program, and its free, plus runs its own forum to iron out any problems people may have, what more can you ask. :) Sorry also Grunthor, I get the point your making, but I do not use multi IDs to make a point, and it is not operator error, your response is typical of the reasons that people that have less than perfect results from any software have to keep quiet . How lucky we are to live in a democratic world where you are only able to praise software companies. Dave

I agree with Gebe, some of the problems could well be down to incompatibility with other programs, I have Vue 4 not Pro, I use it because I like what it does when it does it, but I dont really like all the problems with it. To run it reasonably successfully, just using the close program dialogue for other background running programs is not enough, I have to go to msconfig and shut down all start up programs other than systray and explorer. If I dont do this and I use Vue and then try to shut the computer down, most times it wont shut down without me switching it off, its a most inconvenient way to use a program. I decided after a year of not using it because of problems, I had to get something out of it, after all I had paid for it. I found many updates counteracted some problems and introduced others, from one particular update to the next one I couldnt use options at all, then after the next update it worked again. After another update my preview images for importing textures etc, suddenly just become a jumble of random program icons. I have had to put up with that, I have never had a successful answer from eon on any problems, and usually get no further answers if I press it. I have only had serious problems with one other program, just on one upgrade, from the next upgrade on it ran okay again. C4d runs bug free with both my virus scan and firewall enabled, Wings the free program, still beta, runs with only a very occasional bug which Bjorn the creator is usually on top of by the time I visit their forum. All my other programs run okay too, it might be that Vue doesnt like Hewlet Packard computers, so I have had more problems than some have. To be the program that stands out as a problem, makes me wonder if the program is tested on a wide enough range of computers. The number of updates covering an enormous number of bugs must say something even to the most loyal eon customer, certainly things will have to change a lot with Vue 4 and Pro before I would consider spending any more money with eon. Dave

I think the lighting work has been well worth it, too much ambient can wash an image out, and the default setting is too much IMHO. I think Kutter summed up the commenting side nicely, there is only so much time available for anybody, and to comment on all the images that come on would be impossible. My own personal category of person whose images I dont comment on at all after a couple of times, is one who fits all the following points. One who never gives any details about their image, never credits the creators of free stuff they use, never answers questions on their image, never thanks the commentors either by IM or on the thread, and never comments on any others work. To me these people are taking advantage of others good nature, or they just havent got any idea of how a community works, maybe its the type of world we now live in that encourages that attitude. You quite obviously dont fit into that group, but I am surprised how many do, and yet they still manage to find generous enough people on the gallery to at times even vote them into the hot twenty. Anyway I look forward to seeing further work in you gallery, its very well done. Dave

Hi again John, well I agree that does make quite a world of difference to your image that you modelled and textured the models yourself. They are excellent work, I do make a fair proportion of my images contents myself and know that, it can be time consuming, but you do feel you have more personal input into that image, than if you took the easier route and found them either in free stuff or purchased them. I think it is worth noting how an image is created, not everyone will be bothered but certainly many will. I also think it can be an interesting learning experience finding out how others create their images, it can encourage other people to try modelling programs when they see what you have done. Lots have undeveloped talents purely because they think they cant do it, when with a little perseverance, they would find that many things for their images they could create. I do now understand the point of you original post sorry for any misunderstanding. Dave