Thanks eon but still no luck, the graphics card is an Nvidia GeForce4 MX, it has the latest driver. I have seen reference to the fact that Vue can have problems with Nvidia maybe thats where the problems lay, obviously I would not change my graphics card because one program was incompatible with it, at present Im am still on Windows 98. I just cant figure out why some of these problems appeared with updates, the problem with the options sudden failure, and then the next update it worked okay again, it just doesnt tie in with the performance of other programs. I only put the preview fault on because it was easy to show, but why should it suddenly appear after an update, if the graphics card is causing it, then logically it should have been like from the first time I used Vue. I do find the programs that behave by far the best are self contained no installation, like C4D, just delete the folder if you wished to uninstall for any reason, I hope more software companies go down that route in future. The first time I ever uninstalled Vue and then checked, half the stuff was still in, with a self contained delete the folder set-up that couldnt happen, and I dont know whether Vue shares files, but I am sure that in some cases that causes problems and clashes. Anyway thanks for trying, if you can come up with any idea why the use of Vue causes the lockup when I try to shut the computer down, unless I have everything off in start-up programs, that would be most helpful. Dave

I have a suggestion, since this is Win9x. Goto www.litepc.com and have a look at 98lite. Windows gets ever so much better behaved when you scrape crap like IE, Outlook, Active Desktop, and the scripting host off of the real OS. Or upgrade to Win2k (you'd have to hit the computer shows to find it, but it's worth it) or XP. Then goto same site and get 2kXPlite and again yank out some of the bloat. And the video glitch could have been caused, not by driver error, but incorrect layering. VIA chipsets are notorious for it, but just about any system suffers from it to one degree or another. I've had the best results by doing the OS install, then any chipset drivers needed (the whole mess, not selecting just what I think I need and doing other bits as I get ready to install the specific drivers for that device), -then- whatever iteration of Direct X I'm using, then the actual drivers for the video card. That way, the actual card drivers come to rest in the most stable arrangement of DX and AGP hardware drivers you can have. I've solved a lot of 9x video issues with that procedure. And once it's stable, you can usually upgrade DX with little trouble. I make no statements about video drivers...

And I don't suppose there's any idea that Lynn of E-on could give us as to the anticipated arrival window of Mover 5 is there......? ;D

It's No problem Mikeangelo. I hope you get your Vue running well soon.

Thank's Dale for you further suggestions I will go and check them out. Thanks also Grunthor/Jim for accepting my apology, it's a pity in a way, that when a post is deleted, it doesnt leave an indication that it has been deleted, as happens on some forums. That avoids following posts looking totally out of place, or getting misread as I had done. Dave

Mikeangelo, did you try changing color depth?

Hi e-on, yes I did, sorry I should have made it clearer in my earlier answer at number 53. It made no change to the situation. Dave

e-on:

OK, I'm home for the weekend and nowhere near my code, but I managed to cause a problem like Dave's getting a while back by, I think, destroying a handle that was owned by the system, not my app, which seemed to cause a major leak of GDI resources. Could have been the opposite though, it was a while ago! Wouldn't dispute that video drivers could do it, but it can also happen when GDI resources get too low - along with desktop icons becoming amusingly arbitrary - 98SE onwards, GDI seems to maintain a 4xn imagelist of buttons and currently running program icons, and, if resources get too low, blits that into your dc whatever you called for! On the bright side ISTR that it was was the MS documentation that was at fault, rather than yours truly.

Timoteo1:

If you're using Storm cards, then I'm frankly amazed that any software, including Premiere, works properly on your system. My company spent thousands on those things, they're in a cardboard box under my desk at the mo. The suppliers won't take them back, they've no second hand value and Canopus have never answered any of my e-mails. Worst thing is they're redundant anyway, why buy a capture card that's no faster than a standard firewire and uses a proprietary compression so that every frame captured has to be re-rendered? Sorry about the rant, but they really are a sore point with me ATM.

Redrags

John

e-on: Sorry, clarification required. I'm by no means intending to suggest that it's the same cause! Simply that very low GDI resources on 98/ME OS have, in my experience, resulted in that imagelist (or multiple iterations of the first image) being blitted, without returning an error.

Hi e-on, I suddenly thought to check after your last message to see that the setting had remained at the new setting, and it hadnt, it was back to its original setting. According to my Windows book after changing colour depth it is not necessary to restart so I didnt the first time, but this time I did a restart, and it worked, plus the preview display is now correct. Thanks very much for that. Dave

Dave: Do yourself a HUGE* favor ... upgrade to Win2K. It is simply the best OS in existence. Second choice would be XP. Either way, get yourself running on an NT kernal (aka kickass). Trust me, you'll shed tears at the fact you didn't do it years ago. There is a HUGE difference. I'm not saying it will solve your problems with Vue (as it isn't for me), as the problems with Vue are wth E-on engineers, not the OS your running. I have an Nvidia card as well (like 90% of the world), so I suppose if E-on STILL has a problem with Nvidia cards, that could be the culprit. That would be sad, but not a surprise I suppose. -Tim

John: No problem on the rant, other than you're statements are completely false. Please don't take this as a personal attack, but you don't know what you're talking about. It wasn't clear from your post, but if you're using a non-NT OS (i.e. Win98, ME), then there is no point in even going any further. However, to address some of your other points ...

1. "If you're using Storm cards, then I'm frankly amazed that any software, including Premiere, works properly on your system."

Actually, everything works BEAUTIFULLY on my system. I run all my machines (save my laptops) 24/7/365 and I have yet to have ONE BSOD in Win2K ... EVER. Do apps crash? sure, occasionally, and even then it's always only the poorly-written ones.

1. "The suppliers won't take them back, they've no second hand value and Canopus have never answered any of my e-mails."

The fact that the suppliers won't take them back is no surprise since they're used, and that is on an individual supplier-basis, some will some won't, that's not Canopus's fault. First of all, email would be my LAST RESORT. I have emailed them and they always got back to me. BUT WHY NOT JUST CALL THEM?? They have FREE tech support and they're very good.

1. "... they're redundant anyway, why buy a capture card that's no faster than a standard firewire and uses a proprietary compression so that every frame captured has to be re-rendered?"

Wow, I don't EVEN know where to start here. But I'll try. First of all, it's many, many, many, many, many (you get the idea) times faster than a standard firewire card. It does everything in REAL-TIME, no rendering at all. I have no idea what you're talking about.

It is also the only card on the market (that I know of) that is future-proof. That is, it is fully scalable ... it only gets faster as computer hardware technology gets faster. It is not limited by the hardware of the card itself.

Finally, ALL realtime cards use a proprietary compression. Canopus happens to be recognized as one of the best. Secondly, I have NO CLUE what you're talking about when you say it needs to be re-rendered. This is simply not true, unless you're importing footage that was not captured using the Canopus DV-codec, and even then it takes no time at all to reformat clips. It think you need to RTFM before you give up on it, as you are missing out on one of the best realtime cards ever made.

Oh, and you said "they've no second hand value" ... yeah right, go list your boards on eBay or the Canopus forum ... see how long they last. They are in HIGH demand. Again, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Sorry, didn't mean to turn this into a Canopus discussion forum, but just needed to set the record straight. We now return you back to your regularly scheduled program.

-Tim

Lynn: Thanks for responding to this important issue. I'll post a reply in your newly created thread about tech support when i get a chance. However, when you said "you are incorrect about there being no customer service support." I'm making a distinction between customer service and tech support. I mean there is no way to contact someone on the phone about ANYTHING other than if you simply want to place an order, and even then those people (since it is just a call station and not E-on) have very limited sales info. It's simply a horrible way to run a company. I've called the Oregon number many times and have never spoken with a person. There is simply a voice message telling you to leave a message if you are with the press. Maybe I should pretend I'm with the press?? -Tim

Hi Tim, yes I do intend to upgrade Windows, or alternately have a new computer and use that for most of my graphics programs, whilst using the existing one for the Internet connection. I know many that do this, so if you should be unfortunate enough to catch anything nasty on the net, which is not impossible even with all precautions taken, you are not so likely to affect your important stuff. The other benefit of that is I would still be able to operate my old Meta Creations Painter 5 which I like a lot, and other older graphics programs on the old computer, as I have been told that some programs like Painter 5, will not run on XP, and maybe 2000. This time though I shall take a bit more time to look at set-ups more geared to graphics, when I moved from conventional sculpting to computer graphics 3 years ago, I didnt know how to even operate a computer. I just bought a system all Hewlett Packard, at the time with a reasonable sized processor, AMD Athlon 850, upgraded the memory to the maximum it will take 512. I had hoped that software would take care of itself, and to be honest, most of it has. I didnt really want the hassle of changing this and that to try to suit individual software, and then finding it had messed up the operation of something else. At age 57, I really wanted all my time to be devoted to developing my abilities with the graphics programs, and have spent little computer time doing much else. Hence my posts are all in one lump, as I havent even got round to learning how to use HTML properly.:) Thanks for your suggestions Tim; I shall keep them in mind. Dave

Let we all do what Guitta says, Install Vue on a seperate computer. Let's do that for every program that crashes. The only thing you have to ask yourself is; do you have the money and the space... Sorry, but when I log on I have 20 small programs running at the same time (backup, popupstopper, emailchecker, firewall, virusscanner, etc) and sometimes I have 5-10 programs started at the same time (I work in the IT and have to work with or test lots of programs). Why for god sake should I have a separate computer so that my Vue Pro will not stop crashing all the time? That's really rediculous! None of my graphics software is crashing (and I have at least 8 programs), serious, sometimes I have 3 or 4 open at the same time without a problem. Yes, let us blame the user, tell him/her that it's their fault. I plaid several hundreds of dollars for this software; can't I at least have a program that doesn't crash so much!! I don't care about a bug here and there, they will be solved, but keep the software in the air so that I don't lose everythign I'm working on. Nothin, but nothing I worked with in 25 years in the IT has crashed so much as Vue Pro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AMEN. Same here, EXCEPT for the initial release of Poser 5 ... but we all know what a bug-ridden piece of crap that was. It still has a mass memory leak when using the firefly renderer and shadow-maps, but other than that Vue makes it look wonderful. I can't remember the last app that crashed (besides Vue) ... it's been a LONG, LONG time. But don't you know, on this forum it's ALWAYS user error or the user's computer's fault. -Tim

And I've never read so many complaints in my whole life on one forum and trust me, I've visited so many. There have been people on this board who already expressed their worries BEFORE the product was released. Well if that doesn't tell you anything... And others have complained several times over the last few weeks and suddenly everybody speaks up once "Paid Support" is the subject. I've read in so many and many posts that people are almost waiting for over a week to get some reply from support. That says enough about how busy they are with all the complaints... And then L. Fredricks says somewhere; it's because people don't supply them fast enough with the necessary information. I don't believe one word of that!! There will be always exceptions, but I don't believe that the majority of the users who bought a brand new program that didn't cost $19 that has lots of problems are going to wait days to supply them with all the info Eon needs to solve the problem. It's all about competition. World Builder plays less of a role and so does Bryce and Eon knows that they can survive even with all these dissatisfied users, because let's be honest, where else are we going to find our bloody trees, rocks and mountains? Well great guys, you want to conquer the professional market? Guess what, the pros will be even more picky when it comes to quality. I believe not one moment that Vue Pro will be a great success among Pros, never. Especially now that Eon considers to ask them money for support. Imagine that you depend on Vue Pro as a professional. Imagine that your customers have to wait, because Vue Pro doesn't do what it's supposed to do. What are they going to say to their customers? "Sorry, but that's just part of being a beta tester" I made my point.

Tim: As you say, this isn't a Canopus discussion group, but there is a relevance in that you are attacking e-on for V4P's instability, then announcing that you are running a hardware setup that is not just unusual but (in my experience, not just mine trawl some NGs) very likely to lead to irresolvable hardware conflicts. You introduced Canopus support as a paradigm for small software house support, it may be great in the US, outside it's non-existent. So, detailed response: "No problem on the rant, other than you're statements are completely false. Please don't take this as a personal attack, but you don't know what you're talking about." Don't be silly, of course that's a personal attack. "It wasn't clear from your post, but if you're using a non-NT OS (i.e. Win98, ME), then there is no point in even going any further." I administer and maintain around 70 boxes, some running dedicated CAM OS's most people have never even heard of, the boxes in question were running W2KPro. "However, to address some of your other points ... 1) "If you're using Storm cards, then I'm frankly amazed that any software, including Premiere, works properly on your system." Actually, everything works BEAUTIFULLY on my system. I run all my machines (save my laptops) 24/7/365 and I have yet to have ONE BSOD in Win2K ... EVER. Do apps crash? sure, occasionally, and even then it's always only the poorly-written ones." Well, aren't you the lucky one? Want my job? I've got users who can crash anything from Linux prompt to notepad in XP Pro. "2) "The suppliers won't take them back, they've no second hand value and Canopus have never answered any of my e-mails." The fact that the suppliers won't take them back is no surprise since they're used, and that is on an individual supplier-basis, some will some won't, that's not Canopus's fault. First of all, email would be my LAST RESORT. I have emailed them and they always got back to me. BUT WHY NOT JUST CALL THEM?? They have FREE tech support and they're very good." Here in the UK there are laws which should give us recourse against the supplier but, frankly, we don't have time for litigation. Things may have changed since we had these problems (Feb, March and April this year) but then e-mail was our ONLY method of getting tech support - the phone numbers were unavailable outside of the US. "3) "... they're redundant anyway, why buy a capture card that's no faster than a standard firewire and uses a proprietary compression so that every frame captured has to be re-rendered?" Wow, I don't EVEN know where to start here. But I'll try. First of all, it's many, many, many, many, many (you get the idea) times faster than a standard firewire card. It does everything in REAL-TIME, no rendering at all. I have no idea what you're talking about." OK, steady now: that card that's piggy-backed onto your Storm card, the one that you plug everything in to? That's an IEEE 1394 (firewire) card, it's what the Storm card retrieves all its data through. It can't be any, any, any times faster than any, any, any other IEEE 1394 (firewire) card, coz that's what it is. What the proprietary part of the card does, that was once useful, is fast hardware MPEGing - redundant on a well set up, modern, machine. "It is also the only card on the market (that I know of) that is future-proof. That is, it is fully scalable ... it only gets faster as computer hardware technology gets faster. It is not limited by the hardware of the card itself. Finally, ALL realtime cards use a proprietary compression. Canopus happens to be recognized as one of the best. Secondly, I have NO CLUE what you're talking about when you say it needs to be re-rendered. This is simply not true, unless you're importing footage that was not captured using the Canopus DV-codec, and even then it takes no time at all to reformat clips. It think you need to RTFM before you give up on it, as you are missing out on one of the best realtime cards ever made." I very much doubt that any real-time capture cards are future-proof, they're all redundant. I can do real-time capture from a pro VidCam through the firewire on my laptop without dropping frames! Let me give you a clue about the re-rendering thing: you have a series of frames saved with non-standard compression, you have a series of frames saved with a standard compression: which takes the longest to render into a standard compression format? Would you like a clue? I spent longer RTFMing than was acceptable to either me or my directors. "Oh, and you said "they've no second hand value" ... yeah right, go list your boards on eBay or the Canopus forum ... see how long they last. They are in HIGH demand. Again, I have no idea what you're talking about." Disposing of company assets is not in my remit, however as I am getting the blame for buying this rubbish and I might find a sucker...

No it wasn't a personal attack, if so I would have called you a **&^%ing moron, but I didn't, I simply stated a fact ... YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR'RE TALKING ABOUT, and you have further exemplified this fact with the following statement:

"OK, steady now: that card that's piggy-backed onto your Storm card, the one that you plug everything in to? That's an IEEE 1394 (firewire) card, it's what the Storm card retrieves all its data through. It can't be any, any, any times faster than any, any, any other IEEE 1394 (firewire) card, coz that's what it is. What the proprietary part of the card does, that was once useful, is fast hardware MPEGing - redundant on a well set up, modern, machine."

First of all, you're talking about the MPEG encoder card (StormEncoder) and NOTHING gets plugged into it whatsoever. Second of all, it's not a Firewire card, it's hardware MPEG encoder and has nothing to do with DV capture. Finally, no of course it can't capture faster, it can only capture in realtime like every other card on the planet. However, I can layer 5 PIP's, nearly unlimited static or moving titles, plus effects and filters, ALL IN REALTIME. This is where it is faster ... when YOU'RE EDITING ... where it really counts.

Also, the OPTIONAL MPEG ENCODER is no more proprietary than any other card. It's the format used to author DVD's for pete's sake, what the hell are you talking about??? You only capture to this directly when you don't need to edit your material and want to take it right to DVD. Again, you're completly clueless and probably need to be fired if you misunderstood the Storm this badly. You're beyond inept. The sad part is, it's not that difficult a concept to grasp.

It seems to me you're either a) Full of CRAP, or b) A total moron. I doubt it is the latter, which leaves full of crap. Which seems to be the case since anyone owning a Storm would easily no these simple differences without even cracking open the manual.

-Tim

PS> There are plenty of "suckers" who know how powerful the hardware is that will take it off your hands for you. Trust me.

Oh, wait, and I love these:

"I very much doubt that any real-time capture cards are future-proof, they're all redundant."

Again, displaying your total lack of knowledge about the Storm card. (You like that word "redundant too", don't you? Don't see how it applies here.) Will the Storm still be around in 20, or even 10, years? Probably not, but it has been around for three years and is still blowing the other boards out of the water, without any need for a hardware upgrade. The same can't be said for any other card out there.

"I can do real-time capture from a pro VidCam through the firewire on my laptop without dropping frames!"

**[SARCASM FILTER OFF]**Oooooooo ... gosh golly, stop the presses! WOW, you mean you can actually capture something WITHOUT dropping frames?!?! That's FREAKIN' AMAZING!!! My God, what an idiot I've been all these years, I didn't know this was even possible! How can it do that??? [SARCASM FILTER ON] i.e., I would certainly hope so. If this were circa 1996 (e.g. an eon ago in digital video editing) I might be impressed I suppose.

"Let me give you a clue about the re-rendering thing: you have a series of frames saved with non-standard compression, you have a series of frames saved with a standard compression: which takes the longest to render into a standard compression format? Would you like a clue?"

You can't go handing out clues, when you haven't got one. DV by its very nature is a compressed format ... it's in the FREAKING STANDARD. SHEEESH!!! 3.5MB/s to be exact, and Canopus's is no different. Why do I need to re-render it into a "standard" compression format?? In exactly what situation would I EVER need to do this? If I need to get the edited footage to someone else I simply output the timeline (IN REALTIME with all filters/effects/titles, etc) right back out to the DV deck. Love to see a plain ol' firewire card do that, now that WOULD be impressive.

I DO think that is going to happen as machines get faster and faster. We're already seeing realtime playback of some effects on some machines in Final Cut and Premiere Pro, and if you're machine is really fast you can even get some realtime DV output.

Cheers,
Tim

Wow, good job on trolling me away from the issue at hand, I have to hand it to you, I almost missed this:

" ...but there is a relevance in that you are attacking e-on for V4P's instability ..."

I wasn't "attacking" e-on, I was stating the facts about MY experience with their software thus far and contrast/comparing it to all other software I have used. My experience does not seem to be all that different from many people's who have bought V4Pro. And, just a wild guess, I'm betting all of them don't have Storm cards.

"... then announcing that you are running a hardware setup that is not just unusual but (in my experience, not just mine trawl some NGs) very likely to lead to irresolvable hardware conflicts."

LMAO!!!!! I wouldn't call having a video editing setup (especially a rock-solid one like the Storm) unusual. And why does every other piece of software work flawlessly on that very same system?? Including the Storm. Guess I'm just making that up, eh? And what of the other non-bug, but feature issues? Those can't be (falsely) explained away by computer configuration, those are facts.

-Tim

Tim: Grow up.