Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=1330462

Poser 4 and Poser 5 Electronic Download Blowout!

From now until July 31st, North and South American customers can pop into the online store and download Poser 5 for $199 and Poser 4 for only $110! All other Curious Labs ESD products and bundles are also on sale, so rush over today to find the offer that is best for you! www.curiouslabs.com/go/store.

Just in case another newbie pops in and tells he/she got P5 for $199 and everyone supposes that it's warezed ...

I was surprised that thread was locked so quickly, since it was unclear whether we had a legitimate or otherwise user (it was clear s/he had started with a Kazaa'd version, but killing the thread for that hardly encourages reform).

I'm gonna have to agree, I felt bad for her, seemed she was asking a legitimate question and people were being rude and jumping down her throat. Give new people more time before assuming they have ripped off something. thanks for posting this and hopefully she is not scared away and comes back.

I agree also. Seems like admins have a itchy trigger finger when it comes to locking threads. But then a lot of people just want to get in a little flame or something stupid before it gets locked. Think everyone could try to handle these situations a little better. But I doubt it.

I wasn't surprised that she/he bought P5 for 199.....I was just not sure if the person meant $199.00 or $1.99? Either way, if it didn't come with female figures then obviously there is something wrong. I also realized the person was trying to do right and purchase the software, legitimately but it seems odd if they bought it from "CuriousLabs" (or other legitimate dealer) why was there no female characters? Perhaps the poor gal/guy got ripped off from one of those warez places? Hopefully, my remarks did not scare them away, as that was not my intentions at all, but I could see where the thread would go, just by the meer mention of "Kazaa" genny

Just my 2 pennies worth... If you choose minimum installation only the male figures are installed.

Thanks for the information, b lld0g.........that was something I didn't know. Of course, if I pay $199.00 for something, I WANT the disk....so......I would have never guessed that was the case. (: genny

She admittted to trying to get it off KAZZA before "buying" a legit version that a TOS violation i believe

I'm glad Puntomaus brought this up. It always bothers me when newbies get flamed, when maybe they really don't know Kazaa is not legitimate. I can tell you that there really are naive people out there who don't know. One of my older sisters (she's in her 60's, a senior citizen) discovered Kazaa to download music when her son showed it to her. Both she and her son honestly didn't know it was a bad thing to do. They just thought it was really fun to find free stuff and they went wild downloading music. Well, when the news broke about Kazaa recently, my sister e-mailed me and said she only just found out that she was doing wrong by downloading music from there. She honestly DID NOT know it was wrong. You see, my sister only just recently got her first computer and she's still new at discovering the world of the Internet. There's no way she could have known it was wrong. She's not a bad person, she's a lovely lady with a very caring heart. She just didn't know because no one told her. So, let's not immediately assume that everyone should automatically be born with the knowledge of which places are legit and which aren't. It's not fair to execute someone if they legitimately don't know they were doing something wrong, especially if they have very little experience with the Internet and download sites. Besides, rudeness has always bothered me. I think people should learn to be more tolerant and be willing to teach people in a tactful way that they were doing something wrong, not by saying unkind things and seeming to get some enjoyment out of making another person uncomfortable. Melanie

Besides, rudeness has always bothered me... Indeed. This is the second rather ugly piling on I've witnessed with a newbie victim who probably had no idea he/she had done anything wrong. Watching that kind of nastiness, I am reminded that often the people most eager to accuse others of a character flaw are people who have that flaw themselves. Not necessarily, but I find that indignant righteousness usually has something to hide. I was puzzled by the latest attack, given that the questioner began by admitting to a mistake she had corrected. And now it turns out that it is possible to have a legitimate P5 with no females installed. Some crow, anyone? And the howling about buying P5 for $199? I was under the impression that Amazon had been selling it for that and less. How ironic that the accused probably bought her problem P5 from CL, using a deal her accusers were unaware of. Forums are strange venues. A bit like Orwell's Animal Farm, they run by two sets of rules, the spoken and the unspoken, both overriden by the essential rule that some animals are more equal than others. And they seem to stimulate pack behavior in otherwise gentle and well-spoken people. The internet. How exactly did it improve our lives? M

We need to remember, too, that the human race is far from perfect. Everyone has his/her flaws. None of us is infallable. mickmca said: "I am reminded that often the people most eager to accuse others of a character flaw are people who have that flaw themselves. Not necessarily, but I find that indignant righteousness usually has something to hide." It does make you wonder, doesn't it? I think that old Biblical rule should follow here: He who is sinless cast the first stone. Can anyone say he or she has never made a mistake of some sort? Who is so flawless that he or she has the right to chastise others for their mistakes? Just my two cents' worth. Melanie

I don't understand how someone could not know that taking something that is sold in stores is wrong. Music is still a product. At 6 or 60... it's illegal and it's wrong. Just like it's wrong to steal your models and textures. I completely understand the people who rant. I'm even more surprised when someone comes here an announces they're looking for something they don't want to pay for. I think they should be chased away. But then, i'm old and mean.

As a partner with the companies who make these programs, and as a legitimite business site, Renderosity MUST be firm on the no warez policy. Any user who admits using an illegal copy of any program will have their membership revoked until they can prove their legitimite license. This is not a new change. This has been in the Terms of Service for at least 3 years. Renderosity does NOT tolerate theft of software. Regardless of that members other actions, the fact remains that they had stolen software. The management took action as was neccasary. As to the members ... we would much rather you guys left it up to the site management to deal with such things. There is no need for the members to get involved, beyond reporting such incidents to a Moderator or Admin. thank you all for your support and help, Lyrra (moderator)

Perhaps one of the reasons the thread was locked so fast is because of all the people posting the "I'm in" and "I made it" posts, prompting the moderator to lock it quicker rather than determine if there was a legitimate question that needed to be answered. Did you ever see all those guys standing behind the television reporter at the scene of a horrible accident making funny faces just to get themselves on camera?

Lyrra that's truly fine, you work here, but it's not the right of the members to be cruel to another person, or even judge them for that matter. i had no clue when I first got a computer what warez was or what the word meant. Things can be done is a diplomatic, courteous manner. I'm an old softy, i just felt bad for the girl.

Billygoat... Your reasoning is somewhat sound... but you forget "free usage". Under the free usage clause of the copyright law, we are allowed to tape music from the radio, tape TV programs or movies from cable or satellite. Is it so far fetched then to understand how new computer users can believe that downloading music, etc is ok? They are used to taping shows, taping music which comes to them. When they bring up Kazaa or one of the other P2P softwares, they see a list of music or whatever... to them... it has "come to them" just like music on the radio or movies on TV... so to them, in their ignorance, it is the same thing. The fact that we are posting on this board shows that most of us have more than a passing familiarity with computers. Having worked in retail for many years I can tell you... many people have NO CLUE. They don't know an illegal program from shareware. A 40 GB harddrive from a printer cable. I would prefer it if the admins would post comment at the end of the thread before locking it, explaining why it's being locked and suggest a proper course of action. For instance.... "We are locking this thread because downloading software from kazaa is illegal. We understand you tried to do the right thing by purchasing the software, but if you are having problems with the retail version, your best bet is to contact the vendor directly. The site for curious labs is www.curiouslabs.com." I think throwing in all of the flames and then abruptly locking the message sends a message to new users that we are a bunch of elitist snobs. I know this isn't my site, and I know the moderators have a job to do, but I for one would rather try to help people to understand what they did was wrong and give them the oppurtunity to change, rather than making them feel unwelcome and continue in their course of action. Anyway... that's my 2 cents worth... which with the value of the US dollar... isn't even worth that anymore...

This time I didn't even speak up in defense of the newbie, even in a separate thread, because the last time I did, even that thread got locked! But here I go again... ;) There's still a lot of free-floating hostility here, and it bothers me when it's so quickly unleashed on an unwitting stranger. Melanie's post above clearly sets out just how easy it is to violate the tenets of a society when you're new there. I wonder how many of the attackers were every bit as ignorant when they first stumbled onto the scene? And I wonder how much of their venom is a knee-jerk reation to the feelings of acute embarrasment that they suffered when they made similar gaffes? In psychoanalytic lingo, I think that's referred to as 'projection.' (someone correct me if I'm mistaken.) By any definition, the newbie had made the effort and shelled out the $$, once they learned enough about the graphic arts community to realize that they'd broken a rule. And they still got pilloried....which says more about us than it does about them.

One of things that has always bothered me about this place is just how much hostility is here just waiting for a chance comment to set it loose. It hardly surprises me how quickly people jump on these threads. It must seem like a gift from above, the chance to abuse someone who likely won't get a chance to respond in any fashion. It's not a pretty picture of human nature, but we're always at our nastiest when given a defenseless target.

There should surely be a difference in approach between a request for a serial number/warez download and someone who has paid, or tried to pay, for a legitimate copy? By all means suppress messages that offer ways of cicumventing a problem without paying, but in this case I'd pointed Paige to CL if she bought from there and suggested she tried getting her money back (and then buy from CL, obviously) if it was a dodgy third party site (though it now appears by the amount that her copy may have been legit after all). Fifteen years ago I accepted ST software from someone at work, and even used some of it for a few weeks: I rather doubt whether many have a completely clear record (fonts and clipart from expired demos all deleted folks?). We should be promoting reform, not irrevocably damning the tainted, and to do that we need to judge each case on its merits: I think locking was an overrection to Paige had posted to that point.

"As to the members ... we would much rather you guys left it up to the site management to deal with such things." Most of what was expressed in this thread was opinion on a subject that is legitimate and relevant. Namely, how to deal with situations where people who have done wrong want to mend their ways and make amends for any potential damage done. Forgiveness, what a concept. :-) It's odd to me that Renderosity will forgive a first incident of improper merchant appropriation (which IMO is a good thing...to let correct the error of their ways,) but if a member dares to mention that they did something wrong, once, they risk instant, permanant banning. Pardon me, but "hmmmm." Unfortunately, "zero tolerance" policies tend not to help in cases where people made stupid mistakes, and then realized it, and admitted it. Of course Renderosity is entitled to set and stick by its own rules, no argument there. I agree that it's best to privately refer any potential violations to the staff rather than to mob up on alleged violators. However, we are certainly entitled to our own opinions. I was impressed with this thread ... It has a mature and thoughtful tone, which is rarely the case in the discussion of the warez problem. More frequently, the masses rush to show off their halos and use their righteousness as an excuse for abuse. Again, I support Renderosity's TOS but am aware of people who did wrong in the past but then saw the light and stopped. I don't see the point in humiliating such people. It's the ones who defend their infringements and continue whom I think need to be dealt with less tolerance. Just my two bits.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=233817

ookami - 2 cents? Don't you mean $0.0199? :))

"13. Re: Locked Thread by Lyrra on 7/13/03 10:53 As a partner with the companies who make these programs, and as a legitimite business site, Renderosity MUST be firm on the no warez policy. Any user who admits using an illegal copy of any program will have their membership revoked until they can prove their legitimite license. This is not a new change. This has been in the Terms of Service for at least 3 years. Renderosity does NOT tolerate theft of software. Regardless of that members other actions, the fact remains that they had stolen software. The management took action as was neccasary." But merchants who plagiarize the work of others for their own profit...that is somehow forgivable while the former is not? Hasn't this site already dealt with plagiarism in the past? When a merchant finds that his or her products are readily available on K****, it is considered piracy and warez. Something, as you stated above, that is not tolerated on this site. Creating unauthorized derivative works of another's digital intellectual property, and distributing/selling it, is piracy and warez, is it not? If this is diffrent, please explain it to me. From the Renderosity TOS: "Conduct - Zero Tolerance Renderosity maintains a Zero Tolerance on certain behaviors within the community. These include, but are not limited to the following. Any threats of physical harm, property damage or acts of violence toward another individual, or group of individuals. Fraudulent use of credit cards or refusing to pay for items recieved from The MarketPlace. Soliciting or Trading of any products illegally. This includes, but is not limited to, requests and/or distribution of computer software, software security overrides, serial numbers and/or admission of use or possession (warez). Intentional practices that affect the normal operations of the community (Admins will take whatever steps are necessary to restore service). Any member found to be impersonating a moderator or Admin of Renderosity will have his/her membership revoked Members/Users found practicing these behaviors will immediately have their membership revoked, and access to the community permanently blocked from the community including any duplicate accounts for the same person. Renderosity considers this information private and confidential. However, there may be certain situations that necessitate otherwise. The appropriate legal authorities will be contacted, and if appropriate charges may be filed."

Different from hijacking another merchant's work. Sure it is. Rectifying a merchant loss would cost R'osity money. Cynicism is my birthright. M

Momcat....thank you. i surely wish someone from the staff would differentiate the two. because, as i see it....the merchant who derives a product from another's work product...if caught is NOT banned from our site, nor, even our market. if folks who bought from this merchant want refunds....well, it is SOLELY up to the merchant to reimburse them....r'osity retains its percentage whether the product was legit or not. of course, zero tolerance is practiced when dealing with the wares of companies who may advertise, and otherwise increase coffers, here. it seems not to be as much about the art as the money, these days....and, the galleries are certainly reflecting this.

{And the howling about buying P5 for $199? I was under the impression that Amazon had been selling it for that and less. } Dang, I missed that thread. Were all the complaints from the people who bought Poser 5 at the "special pre-order price" for $349... who should have waited 6 months for the multiple-patched version for sale on Amazon.com for $199 + $49 rebate? Total price: $150. Total savings if people had waited: $200. And I've never heard of a Poser CD missing content. Oh, wait, Poser 5, CD 2. However, you really have to wonder about these people. Even if you download the program from Kazaa, shouldn't you get the full installer? How do people even get versions of Poser without the base content?

I dunno. My howling is pretty simple: Asking where you can download Mike or Vickie will get you automatically ridiculed and banned for possible warezing. Actually selling warezed products in the Marketplace will get you a slap on the wrist. WTF?

{Actually selling warezed products in the Marketplace will get you a slap on the wrist.} Who's selling warez products in the Marketplace? I only thought people were re-selling altered versions of other products... which they may or may not have previously bought. But, either way- talking about warez will you banned. Re-selling someone else's product will get you a slap on the wrist... that is, IF someone catches you doing it... and after you have made a lot of money off it. I guess the PTB consider some offenses are worse than others.

How is it that asking where to find DAZ, or other commercial products for free is warez, but reselling them here is not?

I started out with a Warez copy of P4, (I've admitted as much before, go search) when I could buy one again I did, (I have a CL version of P4) Then I pre-ordered P5, which I saw more as an exercise in giving CL cash to keep them afloat rather than getting an upgrade. Subsequent use of P5 did not dissabuse me of this notion. If somebody gets P5 for $199, good luck to them, though I reckon they'd be better off with P4 at $110 and spending the rest on the Mike and Vic CD, or perhaps just V3. Because if you need to ask where to find any of this stuff then you're practically computer illiterate and beyond help. Hell my mother could find it... (But then my mother is quite happy to switch boot disks in the BIOS, YMMV :) later jb

The thing about this thread, and any other one pertaining to warez, is.......that how many of you feel it is so important? BUT, when someone posts that they are ill, they have lost a loved one, or they had a major "Life" event..........then........where are you all? Just my last "Two-Cents"(: Sorry, but I work nights, I am really tired and I don't understand.....why......all of this has gone so far..........especially because the poor person who made the original thread.....has probably been scared away already? genny

I too started with a Warez version of Poser 4, then bought Poser 4 and Pro Pack when I decided I liked it, and bought the Poser 5 upgrade primarily to help Curious Labs out. I use Warez as a free trial version of software. The next Warez I will try is Animation: Master. I have heard that it is buggy, and been warned away from it. But, even if it is buggy, I may find it useful, and if so I will purchase it after giving it a try. I prefer legitimate trial versions however, such as TS 3.2, Maya PLE, and Lightwave Discovery Edition. Dale LaRoy Splitstone

Just taking a slight side trip here, as far as the theme of "stealing" is concerned here, how many of the folks who have come into a thread to flame a possible warezer is logging into Renderosity on "stolen time" at work? :) I've seen numerous threads where people have admitted that they're at work while responding to threads and perusing Renderosity. I work for a government office (county mental health authority), so I wouldn't dare try that, but I see a lot of folks here who do that and don't seem to worry that they're stealing time from their company. Just a thought. Melanie

"I've seen numerous threads where people have admitted that they're at work while responding to threads and perusing Renderosity. I work for a government office (county mental health authority), so I wouldn't dare try that, but I see a lot of folks here who do that and don't seem to worry that they're stealing time from their company."

Some of us own the company. :)

But yeah, I agree. Blasting the poor new guy/girl was pretty tacky. Everyone deserves the chance to learn about copyright/warez/etc. We give merchants a second chance, we should extend that to members who may not realize.

About the price, I bought my very legit P4 from a retailer between Metacreations and Curious Labs for a decent discount and if someone wants to yank my chain about that, bring it on. No doubt the retailer expected to get stuck with abandonware and CL probably hadn't been mentioned. At the time, I had no idea what was going on. (probably a good thing as I doubt I would have bought it)

And yeah, that "I'm in!" thing is getting really old.

Just a thought but if the member wasn't already banned, has anyone tried to IM this girl/guy explaining A) Why people were so crude, if that is at all possible and B) That not everyone on Renderosity is that mean and would like to explain to him/her about Warez? Just a thought... Gina

Actually i just did that. :) Ok now its off to work with me, God how I hate it. lol

I didn't IM her, but I have corresponded by email. What she did was in her confusion about the download instructions, she only downloaded the Content CD. She is now attempting to download the rest. My speculation was that, the reason that she was able to run with just the Content CD was that she "cracked" the warez version she already installed with her legitimate serial number. BTW, what is the form of the proof she needs to submit in order to reinstate her membership? She wasn't even sure why she got banned. Dale LaRoy Splitstone

Try sending a copy of CL's receipt/invoice email (I assume they send one out) to one of the mods? She should delete her cc number if it is there in full, rather than just the last few digits, in case the message goes astray (and ditto the serial number if it appears).