Thus,through no action or fault they get blacklisted...then in a crucial moment when they rely heavily upon their computer to communicate with another person they find that this communication is a one way deal~why,because they were just added to the blacklist in the middle of their discussion. Couldn't have said it better myself......

First of all I was responding to the comment: "a hospital that sends out its own online advertisement" and now you say: "Wake up and smell the coffee -- we don't "advertise" -- we EMAIL AVAILABILITY. " Maybe YOU should wake up and smell the coffee and maybe READ what people are replying to before you tell others to "wake up". In response to your comment, any hospital that is worth anything would never rely on something as unreliable as email to let people know of the availability of a perishable organ. They use faxed notices as well as telephone follow-ups and message boards where it's quite easy to see if you are blocked or not. For the main reason that e-mail itself has never been nor will it ever be reliable enough. Servers go down. It's a fact of life. They can't just send out an e-mail and hope everything is up along the way to the hospitals. As for "EMAIL AVAILABILITY", are you saying that they send this out and they assume that all doctors will have the time to waste sorting through hundreds of spam letters to try to find the one that may say if there is an organ available? A brilliant method of notification I must say.

A brilliant method of notification I must say Excuse me for not making my point more clear.....we learn of organ availability via... phone email fax pagers message boards as well as surgeons giving out their own personal numbers and ways of reaching them... The point I was trying to make is that we use email as a medium not as a point of "ADVERTISING" for organs. So much for that. Point being, Armorbeast is right -- the small guy and the large guy all get the wrong end of the stick when it comes to being blacklisted....to the anti spam program you are nothing more than a number.

Nope...I am saying that when you establish a direct line of communication its not email and if you have such a line of communication open you're not going to sit there dialing the phone and faxing them every minute on the minute when you have what you think is a direct line to them by computer...if the server goes down then you use phone or fax.The point being is that doctors use online communication heavily now including in the operating room where they may be talking to another doctor half way around the world or there's a vid cam there sending actual pictures of whats taking place. My point Midnight was you missed the point...because they send out online ads that spamcop recieves complaints about and blocks,suddenly anyone they might communicate with using that same server may find no communication coming through~the reason,if spamcop adds you to their blacklist and you use spamcop to "block" spam on your server,this legit direct contact between hospital and doctors is cut off.You don't even know this is the reason because spamcop does not #1 verify that the complaint is valid or #2 inform anyone they have been added.The only way you find out is if a rejected email is sent to you...but this doesn't always happen. In order to establish online communication,you use the server and if its the same server on the blacklist you get blocked...communication is severed.If there was some communication to let you know what happened the person on the other end would know to look in their spam filter maybe,find a filterred email and authorise this person to be allowed...problem there is that the reason you have a spam filter is so you don't have to look at these things and by the time you find out you were blacklisted it could be too late...even a few minutes could be critical. As for servers going down...I totally agree,it happens~but we're not talking servers going down...we're talking about being blacklisted without knowing and thats different because it was the willful action of someone else that caused this to happen.But as it is,you get added even by mistake and there are no more complaints...takes three days to be removed from the blacklist.If you do what they want and contact your server,it can still take up to 48 hours for your server to meet compliance but you have to find out that you're on their blacklist to know to do this! Spamcop is not a legal body nor do they have any legal right to require you to comply with their terms!For them it is a matter of coersion...do what we want or else and if no one is doing anything wrong,then spamcop itself has become even worse than the spammers they fight.

Armor, spamcop is under constant attack by spammers and non-spammers for black-holing them without due process. But in an atmosphere of weak international accords and lax government enforcement, there is no due process of law. I have a feeling they will eventually delist you, but you need to be patient, and take into consideration the vicious and vile attacks that real spammers must subject them to, on a minute-by-minute basis. When they're under that kind of stress, they tend to develop an iron exoskeleton, and they don't take anything at face value.

mateo_sancarlos, in your opinion, do you think Spamcop is legit with the way it does business? Do you see this as more of an "international" problem rather than just our "local" (i.e. USA) government not having good enough laws to go after the "bad guys" that do this?

I totally agree...these people are under attack from everyone but its not the iron exoskeleton that I have a problem with,its the yellow belly underneath;P

The issue here mateo basically comes down to the incompetence I found when I got there and the feeling that the reason they are doing things this way is also borne from incompetence.

My point about being blacklisted by them and having them outright deny that they blacklist anyone...when every rejected ebot I got back clearly stated that the only reason it was rejected was because we had been blacklisted by spamcop.

They tell you to read the faq and their own comments contradict the faq...then when you ask specific questions that are important they either say "I dunno","I guess","read the faq" or simply try to blame the server.

My main problem here is that spam isn't illegal nor has it been defined.A friend of mine sent me links to sites speaking of past efforts to address spam legally and in almost every case the reason it failed was that the anti spammers basically defined any unwanted email as spam and did like spamcop by attacking legitimate businesses as well as spammers.

First lets define spam...is it any unwanted email?Is it any unwanted solicitation?No,spam is when you have 10,000 people all mailing out the same emails so you get the same email from numerous senders.If you don't like the email you get~ tough...doesn't make it spam any more than that sales paper for Wal Mart in your po box.It becomes spam when people not even associated with ownership or marketting of the enterprise are paid to distribute email promoting the sale of such items...thats not the way it works in the U.S. postal system and its not the way it should be allowed on the internet!

Now we have defined what spam is...now we find answers.The first step is to establish a legitimate registry of enterprises that are sending email for their enterprise and their enterprise only~the list is sent out to ISP's and updated daily so that if you're not on it,you're blocked.There is no legal reason why this could not be pursued and if anyone violates this simple requirement,an agency like spamcop would be fully within their right to report them to the server and give the server the opportunity to remove the offender from their server...furthermore,the names and personal information supplied by the offender would be turned over to the national registry to legitimise blacklisting this person.There would be checks and balances in which the accused could prove innocence so there's no lynch mob...and any site like spamcop that abuses the rights they have been given by not verifying that a violation occurred would be shut down.

I realise spamming is an international problem...however,almost everyone I have spoken to has reported that 90 to 99% of all spam in their email comes from the U.S..What I have expressed here is not a perfect answer I know...but spamcop reveals just how flawed the current efforts to fight spam are...we literally have law abiding citizens taking the law into their own hands to address a problem that has been poorly defined by them,that punishes the innocent with the "guilty" and that doesn't even verify that the claims are legitimate~an accusation or complaint is not proof,even ten complaints in an hour when 10 million emails were sent is not proof,and is certainly not enough proof to blacklist anyone.

I realise my posts on this subject are a bit long...the reason is called passion,I truly want to see something effective done to fight spamming legally and I want something done to either legitimise what services like spamcop are doing or to at least recognise the abuses they commit without the legal authority to do so!Its people with passion who do more than complain...we get things done because issues like this have meaning.So what say we quit squabbling...I don't see many here other than Eliza who agree with spamcops actions~the question now is,what do we do about spam~what action that falls within a "legal" platform that might be presented to legislators?

There is no internationally accepted protocol (of which I am aware) to deal with spammers, little or no enforcement by any government, sporadic enforcement by ISPs, all of which lead to an environment in which anybody can do anything they want. Spamcop is famous for blackholing people who later claim innocence, and for all I know these people have legitimate grievances. In that sense spamcop is extra-legal, so they're not exactly legit, but any attempt to quash them would be illegal AFAIK. I don't know how many spammers try to sue spamcop for damages, but in doing so they expose themselves to later enforcement in criminal cases. They also expose themselves to a civil proceeding in which the standards for proving they're spammers are not strict or even well-defined, and the concept of reasonable doubt is not important, meaning it's probably impossible to prove they're NOT spammers, since spamcop defines that, not them. So in Armor's case, if only one user in that block of IP addresses spammed (according to usenet or spamcop guidelines) within some given period, then the judge in a civil case would decide for spamcop, and might be required to forward all information to whatever D.A. handled that jurisdiction. Here is one tip to html coders doing ebots, to avoid being picked up on bayesian spam filters. Check out the scores you get for html in messages, for all caps, for images (bugs), for invalid return address, for dozens of other things. If you can keep all that crap out of your ebot, it's not gonna be picked up as spam in most cases, and will be passed thru to your users. I get stuff that's not spam, but is scored pretty high on Spam Assassin, due to stupid html coders at the other end, so I have to set my Spam Assassin higher than I'd like. Which is far easier than trying to pummel some bleeding-edge html coder into submission ;-)

Actually they admitted I was not even at fault...but neither did they confirm that anyone had committed a wrong.Spamcop has indeed been sued many times and in almost every case it was a spammer who thought that because the actions of spamcop were not backed by law that they could beat them in court...wrong,I never said they could beat them in court~I just said that spam wasn't illegal to my knowledge and spamcops actions were.You can argue that their actions are lawful only in the context for which they currently exist...but like taking down mobsters using the IRS,there are other laws in the U.S. which it can be proven that they have violated~you just have to find the right ones:P

However,if they wrongly blacklist a hospital that depends on its online communication and vid links...if someone dies because no one can figure out whats wrong with the online server they depend on,then spamcop can be held accountable in a court of law for criminal actions.The reason is that blocking a spammer whose actions aren't illegal,but not yet proven lawful either,is a bit different...it does not bring other forms of law into play.If your actions contribute to the "wrongful death" of someone else,you can either be found guilty or the case could drag on so long that you go bankrupt from legal fees and the bad rep you receive as a result.

You don't have to beat spamcop in court to defeat them...you just have to drag out a case in the courts until the cost becomes too great for them to withstand.If they blacklist someone in a multi million dollar corporation and a deal goes sour as a result...the same thing rings true.Right now spamcop primarily has been addressing individuals...and in that people whom most of us aren't very sympathetic towards.But accidentally catch a hospital or a multi million dollar corporation in their sights,cause a lot of damage as a result...and spamcop is no more!

Message edited on: 09/12/2004 23:53

I know that you don't want to hear this Armorbeast, but have you considered a dedicated server ? It would solve a lot of your issues. --Rebekah--

Of course by admitting I was not at fault there was also a lot of I dunnos and such lol...I really am not against the principle behind spamcop,I am against the fact that they don't verify and they don't inform those suspected of wrong doing.If its a mistake so what...if there is a problem that causes my server to go on a list and I could be labelled a spammer as a result,my argument all along is let me know beforehand and the hell you see me raising here will be raised with the server instead!! I can do far more good forcing my server to fix a problem if I know there is a problem that needs fixed...but the policies used by spamcop don't even offer me a chance.If I didn't get those bounced ebots I never would have known why my members were complaining that they weren't recieving their ebots all of a sudden.If their goal is to stop spam,then they need to start using their heads and keep up with the spammers who I guarantee are using theirs to try to get around our filters and blocked senders lists. We don't need spamcop as it is...we need something better that doesn't attack everyone regardless of guilt.If what they are doing isn't illegal and they can continue...then why can't we encourage someone else to compete with them by actually trying to verify complaints,to inform sites on servers of possible actions~but more than anything,to find new ways of dealing with spam because other than being insulted at being labelled a spammer~I know that I could also get around their blacklist without even half trying if I were a spammer;P Spamcop isn't even the best option you have...use Thunderbird by Mozilla or Mailwasher,find an ISP with their own filter...there are other options I can't think of atm proven "more" effective than spamcop and they are all "totally free" and in the end I guess thats the best way to slap spamcop in the face...point out they are no more effective than the free options and they do more damage to legitimate enterprises;P

Rebekka...why wouldn't I want to hear that???Thats an option I wholeheartedly approve of...just my site is non commercial so can't afford $99.00 a month:)

Seriously though,if you can afford it a dedicated server like Rackspace.com is a great option because they basically handle all of these issues for you:)

Thanks Rebekkah...thats what I want to hear...ideas,alternatives and not support of something that may have a logical foundation but an illogical implementation!

Message edited on: 09/13/2004 00:17

"I don't know how many spammers try to sue spamcop for damages, but in doing so they expose themselves to later enforcement in criminal cases." This remembers me that you can rob a drug dealer, he will never denounce you, in worst case he can only kill you.

I'm going to go ahead and say that you should find another server and ask spamcop if you can sue the old one. LoL

Attached Link: http://www.ordb.org/faq/

Message edited on: 09/14/2004 13:52