The funny thing is.. The only person who in any way claimed that Clark = Apollo... is Anton. The rest of us (well more or less) were perfectly capable of acknowledging that Apollo is a character VASTLY superior to Clark, in almost any respect (the place where Clark REALLY shines is the textures IMO)

So it's not really a question of Clark being "as good as" Apollo. He's not. But he's a new toy and the Poser community loves new toys!

I really wish people would stop comparing them. It's like comparing a Trabant to a Ferrari. Both will take you somewhere, but at a highly different level.

But still there's a lot of people who actually like their Trabi's... They've become cult. Much like Clark. Not because they're better, but because they're different.

I agree, not once did anyone even hint Clark was better.  It was just different.  And different is very good in a weak market.  Clark was compared to M2 until anton forgot to take his happy pills. 

I have never used AM and didn't plan on ever using it because of the cost.  Those of you saying anton leaving is a loss remember nature abhors a void.  There will be others that will fill it. 

To have given anton some sort of major celebrity status that allowed him to pressure stores into pulling other characters based on no substancial evidence would be more of a loss to the community than the loss of one person.  [cue munchkin music]

Support new developers.  They are learning from every piece they create.  They shouldn't have to fear the communty's wrath for presenting their work to the public.

Quote - Get over it.  I'm sorry, the "I can create a human figure in an hour" ploy is B.S. (talk to Penn & Teller).  Quality (static) human figures take weeks - talk to any PROFESSIONAL in the business. 

Unless I missed something or you have first hand knowledge, how do you know he didn't work for months?  Shahara is not Anton.   Anton is no Dodger.   Everyone is different in how and what they create and thankfully so.  That Clark isn't as good as Apollo isn't the issue.  As ernyoka said, no one said Clark was better.  The point here is that if Shahara is cleared of the accusation he has every right to be in the marketplace without being compared to someone else.   Diminishing someone's hard work to a comparison of another is sophomoric. 

Well at least you are not "Freshmanic" Robert.

In fact, many might consider you "Junioric".

But you have always been "Senioric" in my book Amigo.

8 )

Tom

regarding anton being pushed out the door, I have to suggest that he wasn't explicitly shown the door by either CP or 'rosity, but neither of them made a public attempt to meet him halfway AFAIK. there is such a thing as diplomacy and negotiation, after all. add to that his many detractors engaging in the usual lynch mob, and the hostile environment obviously made it difficult for him to continue. yes, we all know that anton has been over-zealous in the defence of his products, and we're familiar with his activities going back as far as 99 or 00, hence I was disappointed to see his detractors goading him yet again, like so many raucous crows mobbing an old owl on the forest's edge. in the matter of clark being good or superior in regard to textures, I have a question about that. I don't own clark, haven't seen the texmap or template, but I think I saw a suggestion that his mapping was a step backwards. if anybody can show me a link to clark's template that doesn't violate its terms of use, I'd like to check it out, if only to disabuse me of any concerns in that matter.

umm, mizrael? [channels inigo montoya:] you keep using that word -- factoid -- i do not think it means what you think it means. :)

comparisons are sophomoric? blink. and to think that i make them all the time when i am deciding where to put my hard-earned money. don't be silly. comparisons are a perfectly valid tool, we all use them every day in nearly every venue. saying one figure is not as well-developed as another is a reasonable assessment when -- as in this case -- backed up by evidence. if that alone discourages a merchant, maybe they're not ready to be a merchant. i'm all for encouragement, but not at the expense of truthfulness. that said, i think the clark bashing should stop now, and people who want to play with him shouldn't be lambasted. i also don't believe there is an actual choice here between a great figure and a mediocre one -- apollo and clark are not the only male figures in existence, and we have several new ones on the horizon. if anton is going to hurt his own figure by withdrawing apollo, well, i am sad to see that, but ... what can you do if somebody insists to cut off their nose to spite their face? an artificial choice forced on us should not make us give special concessions to the maker of the better figure. i don't think temper tantrums by merchants should be encouraged either, ya know?

Quote - regarding anton being pushed out the door, I have to suggest that he wasn't explicitly shown the door by either CP or 'rosity, but neither of them made a public attempt to meet him halfway AFAIK. there is such a thing as diplomacy and negotiation, after all.

Do you actually KNOW what negotiations that has or hasn't been conducted between Anton and CP/Rosity. From both parties?

Note that I am NOT saying you're not right, I'm just asking a question.

As for the templates, here are some very resized and reduced versions of the textures. IMO it's a VERY nice use of the space available on the texture map. And the textures themselves are very very high quality. Just like the other ones I've seen from Shahara. Actually the textures are the best part of Clark L But he's not half bad himself either ;o)

Factoid - Def - something resembling a fact.

I'd say my list fit's that definition perfectly, they were fact's mixed with my opinion which of course makes them, erm, not completely factual.

The only reason I put those little factoids out were because of someone's claims that Clark had no textures or Morphs. That was an outright lie and needed to be corrected.

As for all these accusations against his detractors, I'd like to hear evidence that what was said against him wasn't the complete historical truth of his personality disorder. His complete inability to compromise and work with others shows itself time and again through his mutiple grand exit's and falling outs with all four of the major Poser stores. You know, it's said that when you have a problem with a few people, it's something they did wrong, but when you have a problem with everyone, maybe you should look a little closer to home.

Quote - i don't think temper tantrums by merchants should be encouraged either, ya know?

I think temper tantrums by merchants should be IGNORED -- and Anton's was not.

And, I think Anton should have IGNORED Clark altogether. One brief look at Clark and I had very little trouble ignoring him (sorry, couldn't resist a quick, drive-by bash  :tt2:).

People get all hot and bothered in these forums over things that should just be ignored. And inflammatory posts and blogs by a given merchant's friends do nothing but fan the fire.

I personally don't think Anton needed to go public with his accusations, but he had a RIGHT to if he wanted. In a forum where the "copyright gestapo" routinely descend like hawks on anyone who is perceived as infringing on a copyright, it's not like this behavior is uncharacteristic of these forums.

And given the quality of Anton's work and his vast contributions to the community, we could have quietly given him his moment in court.

After all, it wasn't so long ago, when he was openly creating Appollo Maximus in Product Showcase, that these forums were filled with the virtual sounds of people routinely kissing Anton's cyber-derriere.

That having been said, once the accusations were leveled, it was then up to Anton, Shahara and the 'osity to work it out between themselves.

We ALL should have just stayed out of it.

I believe it was Plato who once said: "Jumping into somebody else's argument is just...ynsaen!"

Unfortunately JJ, We  were there in OUR Clark thread as "Customers" and it was Anton who came into a thread he wasn't involved in for no reason other than to bash, hack and slash and generally attack everyone who was using Clark at that time. Stay out of it my arse! If he'd wanted to make his claims public, he damned well should have started his own thread instead of hijacking one that was for discussing Clark. PERIOD!

Actually, I intrepreted his statement completely differently.  It is not uncommon for an artist filing an infringement claim to make a statement to the customers of the product in question.  SteffyZ did the same thing when ByteMeOK's textures were in question.  His original post did not appear to be meant for inciting anything, just a notification that people may have gotten ripped off.  It was a very brave thing to do.  As for entering into your thread, why should he forfeit the opportunity to defend himself just because you started a new thread?  In addition, there were several posts calling him names such as drama queen, where is the evidence that he actually he hijacked the thread whereas just opened himself up to more criticism?  I think a lot of people have tried to incite more drama by taking some of his comments too literally.

Quote - It is not uncommon for an artist filing an infringement claim to make a statement to the customers of the product in question.  SteffyZ did the same thing when ByteMeOK's textures were in question.  His original post did not appear to be meant for inciting anything, just a notification that people may have gotten ripped off.

I didn't see what was posted and haven't read that thread. Also, I wasn't here during the SteffyZ situation, but I do know that both turned into 3 ring circuses, resulting in hurt feelings, marred reputations and people leaving.

This is a classic example of why I feel that any copyright accusations/claims should be dealt with in a professional manner and handled off of the boards in private between the parties involved and the store administration.

Well said Acadia.
In fact this community should perhaps set up a board of

arbiters with an established and accepted methodology to help resolve these issues out of the public view.

Quote - And inflammatory posts and blogs by a given merchant's friends do nothing but fan the fire.

My initial post in this thread was not meant to be "inflammatory", nor was it meant as a "slam" against Anton.

However, in hindsight (which unfortunately is 20/20 clarity), I can see how Anton might have deemed it that way seeing that he's been under the microscope and on the defense for some time.  Perhaps I should have just kept my thoughts to myself instead of thinking out loud on a public forum.

I believe it was Plato who once said: "Jumping into somebody else's argument is just...ynsaen!"

May I use that? I ask because its too good to just let get lost, lol

NEWS ALERT !!!!

another great piece of Saturday afternoon drama in Poserland.
Will it ever end?

This world has more flips and flops then As The World Turns or General Hospital.

now back to regularly scheduled programming.

There  are more divas here than at an Academy Awards presentation...
Now.
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the Acadamy....
oh forget it....
:)

no, no -- I"m serious!!

I'm not offended, I'm not hurt, I'm laughing my ass off.

That really is an awesome line!!

Just to put my two cents in, again, because I'm a loud mouth and cannot help it...

No. Just... no. We should not turn a blind eye to someone who purposefully defames, degrades and insults fellow members of a community just because they're popular, talented or cool.

To use a real world analogy, this is like saying that we should forgive Madonna if she murders someone in cold blood for no reason, because she's famous.

This is what we call favoritism. It is not a good thing. It encourages bad behavior, because if you can get away with accusing someone of owning warez and get away with it, unscathed, then you'll be more bold in future endeavors, until finally you're jibbering and shrieking at everyone and their brother throwing a tantrum and throwing random accusations of wrong doing at people who were actually supporting you.

Apollo Maximus will be missed, yes. He is a very good figure with a lot of potential. It's my hope that Anton will use this time to re-evaluate his behavior and come to his senses.

As to the 'Apologies' people keep mentioning... The only people Anton owes an apology to are JenyK, Acadia and Ernyoka for publically insulting them in an uncalled for fashion in his goodbye post, and Shahara, for dragging him through the mud, whatever Anton's intentions.

As to Clark... Clark isn't great. NO ONE has said Clark is great. No one presumed to say that Clark was any real threat to Apollo's status as an amazing figure. A percieved threat, perhaps, but not a real one. Clark is a very basic figure on the scale of Michael 1 as far as sophistication goes, but he's got some amazing textures and some good morphs out there.

Don't stop supporting Apollo. A lot of us still own him and still use him.

Anton, if you're reading this, I wish you nothing but happiness from here on out, and I hope you succeed at whatever you do (as you always have.)

"To use a real world analogy, this is like saying that we should forgive Madonna if she murders someone in cold blood for no reason, because she's famous."

I knew it would happen,but I just couldn't stop myself from watching this train wreck but I can safely say that I am now stupider for having read all of this.

8 )

Tom

Hey! We all know she's plotting it! ;)

I personally don't think Anton needed to go public with his accusations, but he had a RIGHT to if he wanted. as in, the right to free speech, limited only by rosity's TOS -- sure he has that. but the right to free speech still comes with responsibilities, such as when and where to say what. and then you want people to just ignore what he says? even if they disagree with his approach or his proffered evidence? solely because of his accumulated brownie points? aside from me not putting any bets on the likelihood of that happening anywhere, anytime in a public forum :), i don't think i agree with you even in principle. i mean, i am one of those who thought (and still think) anton has good reason to be suspicious of clark. but accusations of copyright violation are serious business. once you make them in public, you have attacked the other person's reputation, and probably immediately damaged it if you are famous -- your words already count for more in many people's minds. i think it's perfectly alright to say to somebody like that "you shouldn't have brought this here", even if that person has made lots of contributions. i also think that there's almost a duty to speak up against the accusation, if one believes one has contrary evidence. my sense of justice isn't happy with just letting something like that stand without careful examination. yeah, i could have done just fine without the many insults and speculation about motivations; that stuff was vile. bleh. i also wish people who haven't a clue about modelling would get one first, rolls eyes. oh well, it's all taught me something about the people who slung that kind of crap. And given the quality of Anton's work and his vast contributions to the community, we could have quietly given him his moment in court. in court, he can still have his moment; in fact that's the only place where it can happen, now that i've thought about rosity's position some more -- they are simply not equipped to make such difficult decisions when a rip isn't clearly obvious. i think they came to the same conclusion, which is why the official announcement basically says nothing.

Listen PappaBlue, and listen good will you. The thread I'm referring to him hijacking and the one it seems you were not reading from the beginning was started by somone other than myself. It was the one that eventually reached 750 posts after it was moved to the Copyright and Ethics forum.

The reason all you saw were the attacks and name calling aimed at Anton was this. The people tired of his attacks, that he kept editing after the fact to make them less innocusous, let their posts stand as they were written.  Unlike Anton who covered his trail so that anyone joining late, like yourself, would see what looked like an all out attack on him when in fact, he was the one who started it.

It's no wonder this topic is still being fumed and fussed over when people like yourself keep coming in long after the fact and making judgemental statements based on a thread that was so full of holes from edits and deletions by the time you got to it that it did look one sided. Coming in and saying people like me should have stayed out of it as JJSemp did is even more insulting becuase it ignores that fact that I was in that thread as a customer long before Anton came in and hijacked it! And no you can't say it was hijacked because Apollo was being mentioned because he was most definately not!

their is a point to be made about this free speech crap people are mentioning. ...if anton is allowed the use of it...everyones allowed the use of it. as for free speech per se...there is no such animal. if it were so, we would'nt have verbal racial abuse, libel, slander, d notices for the media, gagging orders from the court, or injunctions to stop somthing being said in print or mentioned in public...please get real people. whatever rights anton had or has, so to does everyone everywhere.

as for non modelers not having enough authority to say what they think...again ...crap.  this is a forum all members here have a right to speak about and discuss any topic put forward. if not then you're saying the person who knows the most is the person everyone else should listen to. the thing that was wrong about the thread in question is that it was made personal....mainly by anton, people retaliated as people do...thats called human nature...people to a side of the fence...thats called human nature.....anton acted like a child and took his ball away. that's called imaturity. i know shit about making a model and not much more about anything else in poserdom but i'm learning. that doesn't mean i or anyone else who hasn't created a figure has no right to voice an opinion or ask a question. anton shot himself in the foot. it wasn't the fault of anyone else but him. he deserves no better treatment than anyone else doesand no worse. if anything i think it was apretty good thread......for one it cleared up a point of what is and isnt allowed. it made someone set a precedence for what the author of clark was accussed of and how he was accused. it also shows others that if you don't have substantial proof don't bring it to the table of an open forum. just for thesse two points the thread served a valid purpose.   being a non modeler i'll probably get shot down for the above but unlike anton i'm capable of accepting what other people say as their personal opinon.  antone has no defense for the outcome of what he did in a public forum.

he like everyone else is responsible for the outcome of his own actions.

billy

"anton shot himself in the foot"

Actually....he shot "Clark" in the foot.

8 )~

Gah! No more foot puns!!!

I can go "Toe-to-Toe" with the best of them y'no?

Quote - comparisons are sophomoric? blink. and to think that i make them all the time when i am deciding where to put my hard-earned money.

To make your purchase decisions isn't what I said or was even refering to but rather jjsemp's comment that Clark was a "waste of hardrive space".  It suggested, by comparison, that it had no place in the marketplace because it wasn't "Apollo".    You actually go on to make my point with:

Quote - that said, i think the clark bashing should stop now, and people who want to play with him shouldn't be lambasted.

Neither should Shahara simply because he didn't create another Apollo. 

"Listen PappaBlue, and listen good will you. "

Don't dare take that tone with me Mizrael.  I'm not buying into what you're selling.  I bought Clark as well.  It may have been a thread started by another user, but it was a thread which would have been visited by customers who either bought Clark or were thinking about it would be able to see there was a potential infringement issue.

As far as editing his posts, no I didn't see all of his original edits.  But I know that Anton is not intentionally malicious.  And if he did edit anything, it was to come across as less harsh even though he was being attacked himself.

"It's no wonder this topic is still being fumed and fussed over when people like yourself keep coming in long after the fact and making judgemental statements based on a thread that was so full of holes from edits and deletions by the time you got to it that it did look one sided."

Interesting comment seeing that you have made more posts in these threads than I have.

Papa, I have to pipe in here and correct, please forgive me.

He did make SEVERAL malicious comments. He made them toward Ernyoka, toward Dodger, toward myself, and toward several other people. He then DID edit these when we responded. He may not have realized how insulting his comments came out, but if you re-read the thread, you'll see MANY times people commenting on how quick Anton was to edit.

There were also posts that were outright DELETED by the mods, of Anton's, that were breaking the ToS because of personal attacks.

Quote -  But I know that Anton is not intentionally malicious.  And if he did edit anything, it was to come across as less harsh even though he was being attacked himself.

 Are we talking about the same Anton here?! 

I'm exhausted by this topic and don't want to incite any more drama so I will be unsubscribing...

I think this whole thread should be locked....better yet, deleted.

It's done. It's over. It can't be undone. So let's all just move on.

Agreed.

Maybe locking the thread will give us poor "Sole's"a chance to "Heel".

Quote - The funny thing is.. The only person who in any way claimed that Clark = Apollo... is Anton. The rest of us (well more or less) were perfectly capable of acknowledging that Apollo is a character VASTLY superior to Clark, in almost any respect (the place where Clark REALLY shines is the textures IMO)

So it's not really a question of Clark being "as good as" Apollo. He's not. But he's a new toy and the Poser community loves new toys!

I really wish people would stop comparing them. It's like comparing a Trabant to a Ferrari. Both will take you somewhere, but at a highly different level.

But still there's a lot of people who actually like their Trabi's... They've become cult. Much like Clark. Not because they're better, but because they're different.

Hey ernyoka1! :)

I'm not comparing anything - just seems that others are as a possible reason for all of this hoopla.  I don't get it.

Robert

Quote - > Quote - Get over it.  I'm sorry, the "I can create a human figure in an hour" ploy is B.S. (talk to Penn & Teller).  Quality (static) human figures take weeks - talk to any PROFESSIONAL in the business. 

Unless I missed something or you have first hand knowledge, how do you know he didn't work for months?  Shahara is not Anton.   Anton is no Dodger.   Everyone is different in how and what they create and thankfully so.  That Clark isn't as good as Apollo isn't the issue.  As ernyoka said, no one said Clark was better.  The point here is that if Shahara is cleared of the accusation he has every right to be in the marketplace without being compared to someone else.   Diminishing someone's hard work to a comparison of another is sophomoric. 

This is in response to a 'tactic' and not the Clark figure.  I'm certain that Clark took some time to construct - as most figures do.

If there are no points of contention here between AM and Clark, why are they being made?  It seems to me that some are making an effort to make some connection here between Anton's behavior and this new figure.  Baffles the mind, actually...

That's enough.