Hello.May be someone know about it

I wanted to buy something at Cornucopia 3d .. and the mesh was protected  using my serial number of  Vue Infinite 5.It is ok if i use VUE 5 infinite but when i will update to version 6 soon ...Are all these products bought protected with my serial number would not load to the new version

Then  i stop at check up phase   and not buy the product

What do you think?

Thanks

It will be curious to see.  Personaly I think you and others will have to download again and that is one reason I have yet to buy models from C3d.  Why they can not be like other stores I would like to know. :)

That is my only complaint with e-on.  I like Vue and have no problems with it.
 
  I have tons of models from Renderosity and Daz and other stores and one time is all I have to download and save to a cd for later use.
 
 

Buying non copy protected models make sense for Infinite users only, Esprit users can't export.

I would say that the price of the non copy protected versions looks pretty much the same as the prices you get at Daz or here, while the copy protected is a lot cheaper, so you tread exportabily  ( is this word english, btw?) vs cheaper item.

I agree this whole copy protection thing is boring, and having to redownload everything when you upgrade is a tedious task I would easily do without, but I must admit it works for e-on. Check your kids or nephews e-mule, and look for those items. Can't find any. Plenty of Vue5 though!

IMHO - this is wasting vaulable time &  money.  Lets say a typical model is worth what about $5-10???  By the time the programmers have to deal with all the encryptian BS(meantime they should be fixing bugs NOT content related crap), by the time C3d has to deal with redownloads - fixes - gripes etc...You've spent what lets say $20(in time) to protect a cheap model(no offense).....Not really fiscally respsonible.  Aside of  the fact it is alienating many  potential buyers.  You all really should get out more & toodle around the web to all the many sites & see what is really being said.

Then again a small handful seem to be really happy with how things are being handled......good for you, bad for others. Oh & don't bother tyring to say it's not any trouble, cause I know for a fact it's a huge hassle for all concerned.

Cie la vie. :rolleyes:

Quote - Just trying to make a point here that e-on is not keeping its programs out of people s hand who want to hack it and is only hurting it loyal base who is will to buy their models if they would treat us the same as Rendersosity, Daz and all the other stores who don't have all this protection junk coded into their programs and models.

I personaly think e-on is loosing a lot of money with this attitude toward their customers who have bought Vue. 

Well said. I am always suspicious of a company who is suspicious of their customers. I don't think they lose sales if everything is not copy-protected.

In fact, the really funny thing is, you can purchase non-copy protected items from the store!

I mean, what sense does that make? For instance, say some unscrupulous person purchases a non-copy protected item, uploads it to some P2P wharehouse and now (and here's where it makes no sense, assuming e-on believes) everyone downloads it, so no one will ever again be tempted to purchase the item (protected or not) from Cornucopia. As I said, this, in my mind, makes zero sense. If e-on is REALLY concerned about copy protection, they why even sell non-copy protected items?

I sell many software products, and each has a registration number, but that's it. I know I can create stronger copy protection for my products, at the cost of more support headaches for my current customers. But, I'd rather spend the time making my software better. I believe pirates will always steal your product AND never (NEVER) pay for it. I don't want to burden good customers with a protection scheme which I know won't generate more sales. IOW, I don't think I lose sales to pirates as they're not going to pay for the software anyway.

Back to e-on: I'm beginning to wonder if it's just a corporate culture issue. Years ago a company named Electric Image had a similar mind set towards their customers. They ended up becoming a small-bit player in the 3D industry because all their customers ended up hating them.

Corporate culture comes from the top-- I hope e-on learns to value their customers more than they currently show. In fact, getting anyone from the company to respond to any post on any forum is quite a task. You would think they would enjoy communicating with such active consumers of their product.

I know I always do.

best, Chipp

Problem is even if you buy the non-copy protected stuff there is no guarantee your item will be exportable - the maker could to choose to lock for export.

Encryption/locking are 2 different things.  Encryption = tied to each Vue version - reg code required(updates etc etc).  Locked = can't export.

Why would I pay for example $20 for house only to find out I can't export out????  It really is ashame, cause  C3d does have a lot of nice models, I suppose I can inquire each time I came across an item I like to see if it's locked...but who has time for this? My puter time is limited & quite frankly I don't want to spend it PM'ing etc etc to find out what should be obvious & not needed.  Aside of the fact the are expensive compared to the same quality  as seen in other stores with NO HASSLES!

~shrug~

Don't spread this around, but the non-copy protected format was never planned. It was implemented in response to the people who howled about copy protection, and wanted an option for non copy protection. They got their option. Shhhh. Vue's native format is .vob....true? As you yourself said, Vue is not a modeler, so it makes no sense to have Vue specific content offered in any format other than .vob. Said format has the best compatibility, and smallest memory footprint. I know about those nice models; I daresay I have many of them myself. There's just one thing that is persistently ignored in this constantly recycled pity play. RDNA, Rosity, and many other sites =cater to diverse applications=. Cornucopia is (at present at least; the future is unknowable) a Vue application specific content store. Shave the Poser store and forum out of Rosity and place it on its own website. There you have C3d. Bet you wouldn't find a lot of vobs or .br5's or anything else non Poser formatted there. It isn't competing with any other site, and has no plans to do so. It is there to cater to Vue users; as in those who want officially sanctioned content for use in the Vue application. Oh, and please listen. The key encrytion locks the install executable to to the registered liscence code of your registered product. Nothing more.

Quote - Don't spread this around, but the non-copy protected format was never planned. It was implemented in response to the people who howled about copy protection, and wanted an option for non copy protection. They got their option.

Hmm. I guess it does pay to raise an issue every once in awhile. Still, it would seem then copy protection makes even less sense in the overall scheme?

Quote - There's just one thing that is persistently ignored in this constantly recycled pity play. RDNA, Rosity, and many other sites =cater to diverse applications=. Cornucopia is (at present at least; the future is unknowable) a Vue application specific content store. Shave the Poser store and forum out of Rosity and place it on its own website. There you have C3d. Bet you wouldn't find a lot of vobs or .br5's or anything else non Poser formatted there. It isn't competing with any other site, and has no plans to do so. It is there to cater to Vue users; as in those who want officially sanctioned content for use in the Vue application.

I wouldn't bet on that. It seems there are other plans in STORE for models other than VOBs.

Quote - Oh, and please listen. The key encrytion locks the install executable to to the registered liscence code of your registered product. Nothing more.

I thought that's what we were referring to as 'copy protection'. Am I missing something?

'Copy protection' is actually what prevents Infinite from exporting a particular model. When a mesh is imported by the creator, there is a flag that can be set that will block the mesh from being exported. This was implemented to permit content creators to decide for themselves how stringent they wanted to protect their work (and to cover e-on from a legal standpoint as well, considering how many frivolous DMCA suits are currently floating around). It was listed as 'copy-protected' 'non-copy protected' in the C3d store because of the howling hysteria that happened when the word 'encryption' was used...which is what is actually happening. The 20 character regcode is being generated and embedded in the installer, making installation a one click affair. I bought my extra plants from the e-on site initially, and have to do the regcode plus reg number of the Vue version it was purchased for. Same with Mover 5 until I went to Infinite. You have never been able to share the extra plants and regcodes (the zips would not register with the app unless decrypted with a code keyed from the regcode of the app being installed to), as they were keyed from your registration code. The =only= thing that has changed is that you don't have to sit there and type in the bloody regcode for each plant, and the regcode for the Vue app version you bought it for initially. Nearly all the non-e-on stuff has either a keyed executable or a non-keyed zip file. If the non-keyed zip is unavailable, it was decided by the content creator, not the store or e-on.

There was a reason I specifically said I make no promises for the C3d store structure for the future.... things may change. Or they may not.

If this is the case, why would some be selling their good elsewhere with none of this hassle????? Makes no sense what so ever.....I can buy Foresters/Dark Anvils etc etc elsewhere for less cost &no hassles...what would me make me buy from C3d with ALLTHE HASSLES????  When I can buy from individuals at their own sites or from elsewhere with NO hassles.  HELLO????

MCFLY!!!!!! KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK

Quote - 'Copy protection' ... was implemented to permit content creators to decide for themselves how stringent they wanted to protect their work (and to cover e-on from a legal standpoint as well, considering how many frivolous DMCA suits are currently floating around).

Interesting feature indeed-- though I do find it interesting, I know of no other 3D application which uses 'copy-protected' object files in such a way. You would think at least one other serious 3D application would want to provide such an obvious feature seeing how it would protect them from 'frivolous DMCA' lawsuits. (I'm not including CAD programs which occasionally use encryption for transferring files to and from service bureaus).

Frankly, I think copy protection a bad business decision made a long time ago, and now they're stuck with it. The simple fact is, there are no successful 3D programs which care so greatly for their own object model DMCA issues (if that is indeed the real argument for 'copy protecting').

Of course, I'm more than willing to entertain good reasons for such, but those presented certainly don't make a case to me.

Quote - If this is the case, why would some be selling their good elsewhere with none of this hassle????? Makes no sense what so ever.....I can buy Foresters/Dark Anvils etc etc elsewhere for less cost &no hassles...what would me make me buy from C3d with ALLTHE HASSLES????  When I can buy from individuals at their own sites or from elsewhere with NO hassles.  HELLO????

MCFLY!!!!!! KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK

 

C3d doesn't require exclusivity like some places do, Deb. Content creators can sell where they want, and I wish them the best of luck in their work. C3d is a Vue store, and has no plans to become Rosity Lite. As you said, you shop over a dozen stores and find what you want elsewhere. The key encryption and export blocking flag are not going to go away. As you said to me, shop til you drop....

Quote - > Quote - 'Copy protection' ... was implemented to permit content creators to decide for themselves how stringent they wanted to protect their work (and to cover e-on from a legal standpoint as well, considering how many frivolous DMCA suits are currently floating around).

Interesting feature indeed-- though I do find it interesting, I know of no other 3D application which uses 'copy-protected' object files in such a way. You would think at least one other serious 3D application would want to provide such an obvious feature seeing how it would protect them from 'frivolous DMCA' lawsuits. (I'm not including CAD programs which occasionally use encryption for transferring files to and from service bureaus).

Frankly, I think copy protection a bad business decision made a long time ago, and now they're stuck with it. The simple fact is, there are no successful 3D programs which care so greatly for their own object model DMCA issues (if that is indeed the real argument for 'copy protecting').

Of course, I'm more than willing to entertain good reasons for such, but those presented certainly don't make a case to me.

Most other 3D apps are content creators; Vue is more an environment generator and end stage renderer. A modeler -has- to be able to output multiple formats; renderers only have to be able to accept those formats. It may be bad business; pirates weren't going to pay for what they stole to begin with, so claiming lost revenue is nonsense. However, I have also had things I have written stolen, so I can fully appreciate the desire to protect something that has a good bit of time invested into it.

My initial interrogation was not about protected or not stuff.I have all original,s and don't give to anybody. E-on choose for itself the way they do business and ,as consumer, i choose if i do it this way or not .If nobody choose ,E-on is out and that's not the case .My question is about this:i have some protected stuff for version 5 and i want to keep it for version 6.If Eon offer me a way to keep it,i will see if i continue to buy at Cornucopia3d ; if not i will stop to buy there and buy stuff other place.As simple as this!!!Not a philosophic question ...there are more others important questions around the world

Quote - My initial interrogation was not about protected or not stuff.I have all original,s and don't give to anybody. E-on choose for itself the way they do business and ,as consumer, i choose if i do it this way or not .If nobody choose ,E-on is out and that's not the case .My question is about this:i have some protected stuff for version 5 and i want to keep it for version 6.If Eon offer me a way to keep it,i will see if i continue to buy at Cornucopia3d ; if not i will stop to buy there and buy stuff other place.As simple as this!!!Not a philosophic question ...there are more others important questions around the world

The bottom line is that what you purchase is a liscence to use item X. Any items you purchased for current versions of Vue will be available to use in any future versions of Vue you may buy. The only thing in question at the moment is -how- things are going to be managed, mainly because e-on hasn't told -us- how things will work. But the stuff you have bought will be either useable for V6 or redownloadable in some form for V6. That much is certain.

Sorry I couldn't see how this thread evoled sooner.

Time to stop the hysteria about content locking and start over with this thread.

This is a feature created by e-on at the demand of content providers. Only they can decide if they want to lock their content or not.

There is no reason why content purchased for vue 5 now will not be useable with vue 6 when it comes out.

End of story.

And before anybody starts screaming at me being heavy handed, at censorship and all that - please know I cleaned up this thread in reply to the MANY complaints I received about this forum turning nce again into a whining festival about e-on's assumed intentions towards their customers.

My apologies to people who got their post deleted as a side effect of reseting the discussion to the beginning.

Please... discuss content locking if you want, I have no problem with discussions about DMCA and copyright protection, but please, leave out what you think of how e-on is treating their customers at the door.

Yes - other software do not enforce copyright protection (other than with using proprietary formats maybe .... anyone tried to read a .max model lately without having 3DS Max ? ).

e-on is trying to do that because some content providers asked for it - big deal.
In the long run, we will see if this is a one time failed experiment or if other companies follow suit.

I am not saying your are heavy handed but the same discussion is going on at C3D in the Cornucopia Lounge with a few members saying about the same that was in this thread. Even a very popular modeleer who sells lots of models here and is trying at C3d............Go figure

   I think you are right about your comment in the long run we wiill see if this is a one time fauiled experment or if other companies will follow.   I persoanly see it as has already failed with so many dissatisfied people...................

Last word from me in the thread.....

I was one whose contribution you deleted, goodness knows why, as I never mentioned e-on. I don't know if C3D is owned by e-on or not, neither do I care.

My point is that to implement software protection on minor items is absurdly disproportionate and does no-one any good. I don't care at whose request it is. I don't care if the Pope himself asked for it. I don't like it, and I'll take my business elsewhere to stores that have a bit more respect for their customers. End of story.

Hi folks. I am one of the people who publishes models for Vue, sometimes here, and very often at Cornucopia3d. (And one of the persons concerned about the copy protection scheme.) I do publish almost all my models at Cornucopia3D using the full encryptation scheme there. For Phantast's sake, I do this because I am tired of seeing my models stolen and brokered on Russian and other sites, and especially their textures. The models require time and effort to build, sometimes as much as three week's work each - even if they are seem to be just "minor items", and even if I am not charging very much for them. Also, it has taken me much time and expense to purchase woods to scan for textures, and to take photos of wood textures. Perhaps two year's constant work to amass a sufficient collection of wood textures to model my Japanese items with authenticity. So, I was happy to see Cornucopia's copyright protection scheme, and I have not minded charging extra low prices for products there, because I know they won't be easily pirated. I know that if people want to purchase my products without the encryptation so that they can use them more freely in other applications, they can always contact me personally, and I always make these available in almost any known format. I am very happy to do so. But, I do charge the "market rate" for models in the *.3ds , *.obj, *.max and other formats than I do for the encyrpted versions at Cornucopia. However, I was a little concerned about the cumbersomeness of that copyright/encryptation scheme, given the new version of Vue coming out. I've been informed that the E-On people are aware of this issue and have been working for awhile now to determine how best to deal with it. There is at least one technical way, even I know of, to deal with this so that customers still will have a smooth and simple experience, and not be made to unduely bear the burden of my wish for some form of copyright protection. Apparently, the E-On staff also are aware of that potential solution and are considering it. So, we'll just have to wait and see. Probably none of us vendors want to make customers bear the brunt of our desires to protect our work. But, it might help everyone to know that while we modellers do our work mostly for the deep satisfaction of bringing new things into the world that haven't existed before, we do spend hundreds of hours working on our "stuff" to make it as good as possible, and we hate to see long work later sold around the world for $0.25. ...and the Pope didn't make me say this!

Phantast, I want you to understand that I do have a deep respect for my customers. But I also respect the work I do - the Japanese and the water objects I attempt to copy faithfully and after much study of each object, the hours I devote to trying to make a model "just right", the years I've spent trying to learn my trade, and my good tools and their expense. I really wish there were more customers like you, who would take their business elsewhere.

Agiel,

What is going on? Yes, I agree, you are being heavy handed by deleting those posts which were discussing the pros and cons of copy protection. Frankly, I REALLY can't believe I had 3 or 4 post censored by you when the tone was civil, the points made direct and legitimate. Please reread my posts and tell me exactly what it is you object to.

I, too sell many items at Cornucopia, create many tutorials for Vue, and enjoy using Vue very much. I am often posting supportive comments about the product. Please check out my website at www.chipp.com (click the 3D link). I am also on CGsociety.org and e-on's website and have never seen such disregard for the opinions of others as you display here. Your actions 'censoring' such posts are unprecedented on those forums. Again, I encourage you, please re-read them and see for yourself.

I will be contacting those that run Renderosity to submit a VERY STRONG complaint. Please do not DELETE this post.

-Chipp

forester, I sympathise with you entirely about seeing your work pirated.

But frankly, as I said in my deleted post, there are those who steal stuff and those who buy stuff, and I contend that they are exclusive groups. If you stop the Russian pirates dead in their tracks, your sales increase zilch. If you put the backs up of your potential honest customers, your sales decrease.

It is different for the likes of Microsoft who have an effective monopoly and can do what they like. The 3d model market is competitive. If I have a choice of spending (substantial) amounts of money at user-friendly stores or user-hostile stores, I'll go to the user-friendly ones. I spend real money. The Russians don't. Who matters most to you?

Chipp

Again... I deleted so many posts because the conversation as a whole went south. I took the decision to leave only the original question and the immediate answers to that question.

The thread is still open - I didnt lock it or move it to the trash.

I will review the deleted answers later and decide if I can restore them without breaking the thread of conversation. If there was no problem with your posts, you have nothing to worry about.

I just didnt have the time to do that at 8am just on my way to work.

Unprecedented actions or not, I can't just sit by and do nothing when a few people are turning this forum to shreds into a 'disgruntled e-on customers' forum.

What is the Vue forum for if we can not discuss likes and dislikes of a program and what is attached with it.
 How will anything change if people are not honest and state what they don't like or like.  Its only way to make a change.   If people are only allowed to see it one way that is way wrong in my opinion.
Other foruims like at Daz and a few more don't let it be all one way as I see it wants to be here.
  Just my opinion and go ahead and delete if I am not right with how I see it. :)

I have to agree with Chipp on how hes sees it.

For the record I like Vue the program and use it a lot.  I do not like how C3d had to make all models protected or encrypted.   Is it wrong to say this.............................?
 
 

I agree with Phantast.

I agree with you phanstast - this is why I left the discussion open.

I have no problem with discussing the benefits (or lack there of) of copyright protection measure - I am personally against them and think they are futile.

What I do have a problem with is making accusations, directly or implied, that e-on is out there to deliberately screw people.

What is happening from my point of view is that these discussions are driving away people from the forum. Should I just let things happen without doing anything ? I guess it will be easier to handle when only a dozen people participate in the forum after everybody else is gone...

Quote: What I do have a problem with is making accusations, directly or implied, that e-on is out there to deliberately screw people.

This is the part I would like to see.  I don't remember it any of the comments that were deleted.

Only thing I seen was a few remarks by myself and Dale B but was not directed at e-on.  Just casula jking as I saw those remarks. :)

Quote:  "I really wish there were more customers like you, who would take their business elsewhere."

Will do and done.

Why were my comments not put back as others.  Hmmmmmmmmm I know I am not liked by a lot of the vue gang but hey lets be fair.

I'm not sure what this means Forester: "I really wish there were more customers like you, who would take their business elsewhere."

I have purchased MANY Solidgrowth plants at C3D, but have purchased NO models.  I do not steal anyones efforts, and would certainly not give them away or sell them!  I believe my attitude reflects the vast majority of the folks on this post.

I have purchased models at DAZ and Content Paradise -- as Poser models, as Poser allows the kind of export/import flexability that I need.

BTW, can't one capture the Vue mat files from any model by simply saving while in the texture editor?  I'm not sure why anyone would value the exported texture files, as they have little value -- in my opinion?

To clarify and repeat, Conucopia3d provides vendors with the option to encrypt their products or not. Plus, they've told us that in September they will allow us to offer products in all other non-Vue formats. It is we vendors on that site who choose whether or not to request that a product be encrypted. So, it is us vendors who are trying to protect our work and it is us vendors whom you all should shout at. It is NOT E-On software nor Cornucopia3d that should be disparaged here. It is pretty easy to believe that a $10 or $15 product is worth only that, and is too trivial to bother with encryptation. And it is pretty easy to believe that only the Russian mafia steals models. Speaking as a vendor for several years now, it has been my experience that neither of these are true facts. Perhaps some of you do not understand well what we vendors go through to try to provide you,...people we think of as being just like ourselves, with good products. Last week, I spent $900.00 for the annual "Upgrade" to the primary tool I use to build my water models. This is hard to justify and it is hard to swallow. I don't make nearly enough selling small models to justify this kind of thing. But like most model-builders, I think Vue is wonderful, just lacking in water objects - one of the most difficult but most pleasing things to use in Vue's atmospheric environment. Phantast says that vendors like me do not "respect our customers." And she now repeats this claim. OK - here is what I try to do, and what I believe most model-builders try to do. First, I try to put myself in my customer's shoes, and think about how to make a product versatile and well-built enough to be worth the money. I do a significant amount of background research to see how the real object is made, and what I must do to replicate it. If its something that I can make to scale (use a smaller scale but real measurements), I try to do that. I always, always, always watch the polygon count, and try to make it as small as possible so that the customer can afford to do other things with their scene. If I possibly can, I try to use real textures for the objects so that the product is accurate. And finally, I always spend considerable time in Vue, essentially re-building the object a second time so that the customer can easily change colors or textures, or maniulate the positions of sub-components to suit their purposes. Given that I must spend money on tools and textures to be able to make a worthwhile product, and that I spend a considerable amount of time, thought and effort oriented to what I think a potential customer would want, in my own mind, I am trying to both value and respect every potential customer. When I offer a model that took me three weeks to make for a price of $15.00 or $20.00, and I know that I'm only going to sell four to ten copies of it, I am respecting the customer. When I put a $15.00 model set up for sale on a place like Renderosity, knowing that Renderosity needs to claim 50% of the sale price in order to stay in business, I am valuing the customer. And when I put a copyright on my model, I am valuing the work I did, my tools, and my ablity to keep on building models. Secondly, in my 36 months as a vendor, I have discovered that it is precisely the people who believed these models to be "just worth $10 or $15" - "of minor value" as Phantast claims, who consistently give them away to friends, copy the textures and use them for other models, in two cases, who thought it was fine to sell them without my permission to another broker, and who treated them so carelessly as to let them fall into truely evil hands. It is even worse for the textures I spend so much time on. Five or six times per year, I have to patiently explain to people why it is that these are copyrighted, and why I really don't want them to just use these freely for other models. I always offer another texture to the person making this complaint. In every single case, the persons who raised these complaints said that, #1-they are "outraged," and #2-they feel that if they purchase one of my models, they should be able to make whatever use they want to make of it, and any of its pieces. In general, I have found that in the real world, it is people who think these models are of minor value, whom I have to fear the most. This is undoubtedly different than what most of you commenting here seem to be thinking, or expecting. But please, give this a little thought. It is not for nothing that I value Cornucopia3d's willingness to offer people like me the encryptation scheme. Perhaps we model-builders bring this upon ourselves, by charging so little for our work. It may be that we lead people to think our models are "cheap" because we charge what for most people in the USA is something approaching "pocket change." And, we should give up caring that people in other countries find $10-15.00 USD to be a large sum, and stop trying to price models in such a way that those people can buy them also. While I may lose good customers like dlk, three years experience have rubbed my nose in that fact that I have just two stark choices if I think it worthwhile to make inexpensive models for my fellow hobbyists. Either, I need to request the people who want to persist in viewing my models as just "minor items" and who will steadfastly insist on considering copyright protection mechanisms to be an undue burden to go elsewhere, or I need to quit building models. That's just my conclusion - other people may feel differently.

Man- this is the most STALINIST - OPPRESSIVE Forum I have ever seen at Rendersity...

Forester, you shouldn't let a few bad apples spoil your attitude this way. No matter what methods are employed to prevent theft - there is ALWAYS someone to come behind & hack it.  It was mentioned by someone earlier, that you can't find Vue models on Emule or the like.  Well it's not cause they aren't hackable it's just they aren't popular(no offense-just blanket stmt), while Vue the program maybe.  It's never going to stop - all you guys are doing in inconvienincing your good customers.  I'm all for protecting models but there has to be an easier/more customer friendly way.

I have bought 901 items from RO - can you imagine if each of those was tied to a specific version of Poser & I had 901 different serial numbers :blink:  You might as well kill me now LOL Cause I wouldn't go fo it. I have close to 60g in my Poser runtime alone, imagine If I/we had to reinstall everything with every new version of Poser that came out :blink:

Something has to give somewhere - somehow. For the record I respect all modelers, as I can't model myself yet - just can't find the time learn.

You speak of having to pay $900 to update your programs, well, I for one have to update Vue/Carrara/Shade/PSP/hexagon/Silo etc etc.....those costs well = 900.00 if not more on a yearly basis not to include the cost of yearly puter upgrades!  It never ends!!!!!!

I’m coming from this, from a different point than most.  My problem is paying extra for NON-COPY protected goods &  to possibly find out that the items are locked from export.  As you can see from above list, I use many programs, and flexibility is must.  I don’t have money to waste on surprises nor do I have time to be constantly PM’Ing asking for such info.  I would NEVER buy copy protected goods as in content  ie Poser/Shade/Vue/Carrara I’m talking about MODELS…not the software/plugins, things of this nature.

Lets take the person at C3d that has 200 items – so now Vue 6 comes out, he has to re-download & reinstall & key in all those serial numbers.  This was different when EON just had about 12 trees up on their website, that was no big deal.  But content people are typically collectors(as you can tell from what I said above lol)

If you vendors want  protection you should all have a group meeting in a chat & discuss it and come with something better than this.  As I said, software/plugins etc etc I expect to have serials.  NOT content…it’s just way to cumbersome & tedious.  The way EON does  it, by having to register & provide registration codes just to get into forums would seem to be enough for me.  At  least you know only legitimate owners are buying, unlike anywhere else.  That IMHO, should be suffient.

Telling people to shop elsewhere or saying you don’t want dissenters as customers is not good IMHO and is NOT the answer, which is what got me ticked off.  I’m seeing way to too much as of late vendors being rude & ugly to their customers, not for the reasons being discussed here, but still no excuse.  This saddens me to no end.  I just can’t support vendors that berate their customers.

Now then to end a positive note, I want to say Forester has some of the best models around & is a very gracious & giving person. She has always gone out of her way to help me & done it promptly & in a very professional manner.

This whole deal is/has severed friendships & is now spilling over into the vendor arena – the sooner this is all solved the better for all, this is all very sad.  This community split is no good for anyone.  Can’t we fix the PLEASE!!!!!! STOP THE INSANTIY!!!!!!!

To quote Seinfeld – “SERENITY NOW”

Well...hey, it's all about control!

It has been demonstrated throughout the relatively brief history of software, that copy control schemes don't work -- in most cases.  Generally, people who steal software are the ones who don't buy it in the first place.  They are like weird stamp collectors, only the value of their collections decreases with age, so they keep "cracking" the latest, to keep their odd collectors rush going.

So, will the craftsmen who presently sell on C3D in .vob only format, start selling their models as DXF, 3DS, OBJ? Or will they create files in 3D application native formats -- something like Carrara's CAR format -- which can then be exported to one of the standard 3D file formats (I don't think Carrara has the ability to lock objects for export, so I guess that won't work either).

Phantast said it all: "If you stop the Russian pirates dead in their tracks, your sales increase zilch. If you put the backs up of your potential honest customers, your sales decrease."

At any rate, this post is going nowhere, so as my last word on it:  may the democratic marketplace rule!

Agiel,

I see you have still censored one of my posts..in fact the first main one. Can you please provide me a reason for this?

Your contention about the many complaints you received incenting you to censor posts is a poor excuse. Each day in legislatures around the world there are plenty of dissenting votes against different freely voiced opinions. That is the nature of such discourse. By censoring posts, you do a disservice to all members by disrespecting their ability to form their own opinion regarding these matters.

I agree, name calling and ad hominem attacks may warrant censorship (to a point), but a healthy discussion regarding a point of view which you are not alligned with does not.

I have always thought of you as a fair moderator-- and am appreciative for your help and valuable posts, such as those from SigGraph recently. Please reconsider your approach to matters such as these.

-Chipp

A thing that sells for $15 is, arguably, worth $15. So is anyone who regards something that sells for this price to be worth this price, also someone who "who consistently gives them away to friends, copy the textures and use them for other models"? I could read forester's post to be something of an accusation. Otherwise, I don't understand it. Are these models supposed to be of "major value", then?

Look, let me put it like this. If I go to buy an expensive watch, I don't take it amiss if the watch is in a locked cabinet in the shop and I have to ask an assistant to open it. One doesn't leave a $400 item on an open shelf. But if I go to the supermarket and find that everything down to the cans of soup are locked up to deter shoplifters, and I have to ask an assistant to open the soup cabinet, and then the juice cabinet, and so on - well, I go to another supermarket. Now shoplifting is very bad and evil, but if the supermarket starts punishing ME for the crimes of OTHERS in a way that is disproportionate to the scale of the problem, I take my business elsewhere.

So, forester, I'm sorry for your problems and that you have to deal with idiots who don't understand copyright, but it doesn't matter what you say. Under the present regime, I do not even visit C3D, I do not see what you are selling, I do not buy it. If you are happy with that, fine. I have plenty of other places to buy stuff.

On one other issue: I believe the purpose of a forum moderator is to ensure that the Renderosity ToS is adhered to. Last time I looked, complaining about e-on's business practices was not against the Renderosity ToS. Even drifting off-topic is not against the ToS.

Quote - Look, let me put it like this. If I go to buy an expensive watch, I don't take it amiss if the watch is in a locked cabinet in the shop and I have to ask an assistant to open it. One doesn't leave a $400 item on an open shelf. But if I go to the supermarket and find that everything down to the cans of soup are locked up to deter shoplifters, and I have to ask an assistant to open the soup cabinet, and then the juice cabinet, and so on - well, I go to another supermarket. Now shoplifting is very bad and evil, but if the supermarket starts punishing ME for the crimes of OTHERS in a way that is disproportionate to the scale of the problem, I take my business elsewhere."

I couldn't have said it better myself - great post :)

DLK30340, thank you for your kind note. To clarify, it is $900.00 USD to upgrade just one of my programs. Like you, I also have to upgrade my model-building programs, my textue-making programs, plus Vue (all editions), Poser, Bryce and so forth. I certainly hope that you are not paying $900.00 to upgrade a single program of yours - LOL! I do not wish that type of expense on anyone! To others, here is my understanding of how CD3 operates. If you have one or more copies of Vue 5 (such as Vue 5I, Vue 6, etc.), and you have registered those programs on the E-On Sofware site, the serial numbers of those copies are known to CD3. If you purchase a model there that is copy-protected or encrypted, when you purchase the model and download it, you are asked to select which copy of Vue that model is being downloaded for. This is one simple step in the purchase-download process, and it is not an unduly burdensome step. One click. If you have more than one version (or more than one copy, such as I must have in order to beta-test my products before submitting them), and you want that model for each version, you must download it again, this time registering it to your second version, or whatever. If you have a lot of copies, this could get to be burdensome, but most people will not have more than one or two versions of the program, For anything you purchase, you automatically have 5 downloads. Because Vue6 is coming out, and there will be newer versions in the future, the number of permissible downloads will increase, of course. The E-On programmers know that requiring people to download their models a second, a third and more times in the future is asking too much, and they are working right now to try to find a way to deal with this potential problem. One potential technical way to handle this is to make things so that upgraders keep their old serial numbers. Then repeated downloads would not be necessary for upgraders. I don't know that this is how E-On will choose to handle the issue, in the end, but please be assured that there are technical possibilities for resolving this issue to everyone's satisfaction. And also, please be aware that the E-On people are actively trying to deal with this. Also, please be aware that all model-builders I know of are willing to provide their models in other formats when a customer needs one, and to sell non-encrypted models. We all have multiple applications, and we all know that people want to pay once for a model and use it in everything. All you have to do is ask. On CD3, I have agreed to sell my models at more or less bargain basement prices, if I choose to ask that they be encrypted. As far as I know, my encrypted models there cost signficantly less than they do elsewhere. I believe all the vendors requesting encryptation on CD3 do the same thing. It is a quid-pro-quo. In return for making them really-really cheap, I ask that they be encrypted or otherwise copy-protected. As far as I know, you cannot find the same models for the same price at other sites. My apologies to Phantast. I was rude - something I try to avoid. As DLK30341 points out, I am distressed by all this ranting and discouraged by the large number of people in this discussion who appear to me to think that our work is not worthwhile and has little or no value. There is no excuse for my rudeness, however. To LCBoliou, yes it is about 'control.' I would like to be able to earn something like a fair return for my work - just enough to pay for my time and effort and tools. If I cannot pay for my tools, I obviously cannot make models. (Although, of course, that is only my loss and no loss to anyone else.) As a very, very old computer person, I am aware that copy protection schemes generally do not work. I hated them in the old computer days. But then, in the old days, people did not rip each other off as much as they do now, and it did not take so very much work to make programs, or even models. I swear to you that it is not just the occassional diviant that rips us off - gives away our work, lends it to a friend, makes multiple copies for all members of their family and so forth. If that was the case, I would not bother. Anyone building models is well aware that they all will eventually end up as warez, or that, if they are any good, we will see them in thousand pictures. Yesterday, I say one of my models on a paperback book cover in the supermarket, of all things. And not by any person or firm to whom I'd sold that model. Geez! I don't even have objections to bulk model purchases for all the members of a family and friends. Just adding an extra 25% would be all that I think is even worth asking. I suppose that if its meant that its' all about control, in the sense of vanity and ego, perhaps I failed to make a reasonable explanation of the situation that we vendors are in. I have very little ego at my age. And to LCBoliou, "Yes" - most of use vendors on CD3 do plan to offer our work in several formats. As I said, I for one, always want to be able to use models I purchase in every one of my relevant programs. That's reasonable, and certainly reasonable for every one. Its just that I might charge you a dollar or two more for you're to be able to do that. Which brings one of my models there up from $10.00 to say, $12.00, or perhaps even to $15.00. Not an excessive cost. Like LCBoliou and DLK30341, this strikes me as going nowhere. I had thought to try to explain why some of us vendors want some reasonable form of copy protection. We don't want it at the customer's expense, or at least not at the customer's unreasonable expense. It is very reasonable to complain about excessive burdens or copyright protection schemes that threaten to get out of hand. It is only by raising your voice that bad things get fixed. I also just wrote here to try to share with you that it is not CD3 and not even E-On who should be the targets of your dislike (and hatred, apparently). Its just us individual folk who 'were' trying to balance the cost of making models with the return for doing so. Also, to make it clear that E-On is aware of the issue and is working on it. I'm not so sure I want to be among this group anymore, however. It is dismaying to me the number of people who apparently believe that models are of little value because they are priced low enough for people in developing nations to be able to purchase them; who believe that this is about ego, control or disrespect and don't want to put themselves in the place of the model-builder for just a minute; who apparently don't want to take that tiny extra click-step because it is excessively burdensome to them, or who don't want to purchase models at a significantly reduced price at CD3, in exchange for helping someone like me try to protect my models.

... and she starts to pull all her models from the marketplace - Phantast is right. They were only just worth $15.00 after all - just crap, really!

Maybe I'm missing something.  I shop at Daz, Cornucopia3D and other stores.  At both I buy a product.  I download the product.  I install the product.  I can then use the product. Maybe it's my workflow, since Vue is the app I want stuff in at the end of the workflow.  I don't know.

Frankly the constant complaining has pushed me beyond careing.  At one point I could have swung either way.  Try to brow beat me and you'll find out just how stubborn I am.  In the end it is your choice where you shop.  That is no reason to jump into every thread with repeats of the same old moans.  Start your own thread for that or post in the old one so it comes to the top of the forum again.. The original poster had a reasonable question.  This thread now stands absolutely zero chance of getting near an answer.

BTW:  Ask any supermaket chain how seriously they take security.  Maybe you havn't noticed the CCTV, the uniformed guards, the RFD chips, the plain clothes detectives, the timelocked safes, the high value items behind service counters, infiltration of undercover agents into shoplifting gangs, Chip and Pin, computer profiling your behaviour patterns, panic alarms and the fake DVD packaging swaped on sale for the real item.  The supermarkets don't trust you.  The reason supermarkets do it that way is it uses less staff than running department stores not because they care if you think they don't trust you.  They hate every penny they lose through shoplifting and work constantly to reduce it.

quote:
Also, please be aware that all model-builders I know of are willing to provide their models in other formats when a customer needs one, and to sell non-encrypted models. We all have multiple applications, and we all know that people want to pay once for a model and use it in everything. All you have to do is ask.

Isn't this what we have been trying to get since the first day of C3D............

The concept of "worth" is relative. Something that is cheap is not necessarily "crap". Some of the best things in life are, in fact, free.

Pricing of digital items where there are no costs of raw materials per unit of sales is voodoo. Some merchants price their goods very cheaply to encourage greater volume of sales, others look for a higher rate of return per unit, and opinion is divided as to the best strategy.

forester, I did not say your models were crap - I couldn't, since I've never seen them. I said I have never visited C3D and never bought anything from them. That is a matter of plain fact. You could be the most wonderful modeler ever for all I know.

If you are saying that because you don't like what I have posted here, you're going to take away your toys and go home, then that's your decision.

Quote: “Frankly the constant complaining has pushed me beyond careing.  At one point I could have swung either way.  Try to brow beat me and you'll find out just how stubborn I am.  In the end it is your choice where you shop.  That is no reason to jump into every thread with repeats of the same old moans.  Start your own thread for that or post in the old one so it comes to the top of the forum again.. The original poster had a reasonable question.  This thread now stands absolutely zero chance of getting near an answer.”

If people don’t speak out nothing will change, it’s called protesting……Tell the anti-war peeps to shut up & see what happens, Look what would have happened if the blacks hadn’t protested when they had no rights, same with the gays now. I quite frankly don’t care who’s tired of hearing about, unless the disgruntled speak up nothing will change.  That’s what’s called a democracy.

Quote” and she starts to pull all her models from the marketplace - Phantast is right. They were only just worth $15.00 after all - just crap, really!”

Hold the phone – that is ridiculous! IMHO – you are taking this way to personally, no one is calling your models crap, they are from it….this is a “global” issue.  Please see it as such.

I also want to thank you for your apology, it is accepted by me anyway.

I think we all need to calm down – this is going full tilt & for no reason.

dlk30341:

I quite agree about this whole thing needing to slow down. 

I didn't say people can't speak out.  I've been involved in enough protests/boycots to know this is the case. Two thoughts:

1. Not all protests are right.  Sometimes it is neccessary to protest against protestors.
2. There is a right place, way and time to protest.  Protesting at every opportunity and in every venue can weaken your protest, it can alienate similarly minded people and it can destroy communities.  Sometimes sending a private message to the right people can have more of an effect than shouting from the roof tops.  Sometimes the guy shouting from the roof tops drowns out the private message or makes acting on it impossible as the shouter will use "their" victory to continue and support their agenda.

To:

1. That's all in the mind of the people protesting

2. If all spoken via PM - it's all hidden & out of public view - hiding things is not a good thing. Honesty & Openess is the BEST policy, accompanied by RATIONAL discussion.

Obviously with this, rational discussion is out the window......no one is willing to give or attempt to work out at reasonable solution. A pity it is. Instead, peoples feelings are getting hurt & all getting so worked up that no discussion can be had.

Oh well, maybe by Vue10 things will be worked out.

Forester...please don't think that this debate over copy protection is a slam against you!  I have a high regard for those who model in 3D, as I've been doing it since trueSpace 1.0 and know it 'aint easy.  I'm not angry at e-on or those who protect their items – that is their right.  As the protected/non-protected nature of C3Ds models are open for all to see before purchasing, I know I won’t get export blindsided if I purchase anything at the cheaper, non-protected price.

Don’t take this thread personal, it is the general idea of such protection I’m against – not at all do I blame you for not wanting clueless adolescent graphics geeks to rob you of your hard work!  However, as it stands, the model export protection might actually be hurting your sales!

Folks who are selling their items on C3D might try and test the protected vs. non-protected theory by selling only non-protected items for awhile – see what happens.  Modelers might charge a price that is between the protected and non-protected price.  Most Vue users would likely pay a bit more for a model that was specifically texture mapped for Vue, even if it cost a bit more than the same model that required Vues import filters to get it into Vue.

What are the statistics on sales of your product?  Do more customers purchase the protected items, or do the non-protected items garnish more sales?

LB - I've read elsewhere that people are buying mostly the copy protected stuff because it is cheaper - that said they don't realize up front what buying that means as in constant re-downloads etc etc