Lately, I haven't managed to get anything even half way decent out of PoserPro.
I think I'm relying too much on IDL for lighting, for one thing.
I think I'm starting to hate Gamma correction, too.
Textures have no life to them -- I've never had this problem in Poser8. I used to be able to get a nice succulent skin color out of my textures - not anymore. (At least not in PoserPro 2010)
Textures that look great when I open the texture file look washed out, pale and dry after rendering. They don't look like that for other people, so it's not the textures. It's me.
I'm relatively sure it's the gamma settings, but nothing I try seems to work.
Doesn't matter which lights I use, either. Or if I use IDL or not. Everything is either underlit, or overlit. I just can't seem to get the balance right.

Maybe I need to start over. sigh

Anyone else having problems like this? That you used to get great results - and now you don't?

P.S. Doesn't seem to matter if I use a skydome and IDL, IBL, Spots or Area lights. I just can't get it right anymore. (And obviously I don't use all of the above all at once.)

Heck, I used to get great renders with one light -- not anymore. siiiiiiiiigh

You are not alone.

I echo every statement you have made.

Here are the tactics that I have used to adapt to Poser Pro 2010. You are welcome to try them... your mileage may vary.

First, TURN GAMMA CORRECTION OFF and leave it off!

90% of what you are talking about goes away when you do.

The truth of the matter, imho, is that while it does work, and work correctly, it isn't worth all of the problems and limitations that it imposes. For openers, a large number of very useful textures for older items suddenly require all sorts of fiddling and reworking.  This is fine if you know what the heck you are doing in the material room, but for every BB or LaurieA here there are dozens of me... people who know just enough to get by and get in trouble if they become overly ambitious. I have read the threads, and I still have no clue how to adapt older items to GC. Therefore, I think I'm better off leaving it turned off, and doing the adjustments by eye. It has worked well up until now, and I suspect it will serve me for the duration of my association with Poser.

If you need help getting overall light levels to a managable level, try the Tone Mapping feature. Yes, I know it's "fakin' it" but so what? If it works, and gets my workflow on through the pipeline with a result I'm pleased with, what does it matter? I'm not a purist and don't plan to become one.

IDL is the greatest feature I've seen introduced in Poser, especially when you put BB's light sphere with it. That said, it is not a panacea to good lighting. I, for one, find it to be completely unusable in low light situations. Even turning down its native luminance does not give me the effects I'm looking for in very low light situations. In these cases, go back to what has always worked for you and stop worrying. Again, turning GC off will give you the more predicatable results you are accustomed to. Also, when using IDL with the dome, make sure you have at least one real light to cast your shadows. My own view of the dome is it is the greatest fill light I could ask for. For the rest, I set individual lights at about 1/2 the levels that seems right without the dome.

Turning GC off will probably fix the majority your texture problems as well.

Give these suggestions a try and see how they work for you. For me, it's been the difference between a system that works and one that doesn't.

Thanks Basicwiz :)

Yeah, I turn GC off more than on, because of exactly what you said. The older textures... require a huge amount of fiddling, because they were done to get a good result without GC -- and often it's trial and error for ages before you have a somewhat acceptable level of quality. (Note, I'm not saying realism.)

You know, I'd completely forgotten about tone mapping. blush
And I still have no idea how it works. :)

I also found something else that helps with IDL -- turning down the diffuse amount slightly.

I think what annoys me most is that most of the time I end up with greyish textures, which had all the color leached out of them by GC and IDL -- which is why I turn it off these days. Sorry BB, I know you'll have kittens hearing about people turning off GC, but it's not working for me.
Yes, I know it is probably my lighting, yes, I know I should adjust all this stuff... but sometimes I just don't want to fight with Poser and just render and feel good about the result, you know?

I haven't had one of those "Ohhhh that came out nice!" moments in PoserPro yet. Which is down to my ability with it, I'm sure. But it doesn't make me feel any better to know it.

Keep after it. I've done some of my best work since PP2010 came out. It's just a matter of using the new tools that work for you (IDL) and leaving the ones that don't alone.

And I doubt BB will have kittens. It was a post from him that made me understand that it DOES take a LOT of effort to make GC work. I no longer feel like I don't "get it," I simply choose not to use it. And that is a valid position to take.

As to Tone mapping, just set it to something between 1.8 and 2.2 and you ought to get the results you were looking for with GC set at those values. Except with Tone Mapping, IT WORKS without all the hoops to jump through. 

I find it interesting that you chose to go with PP2010 instead of Poser 8, Silke... when you look at the feature difference, GC and Collada support stand out as key PP2010 components missing in Poser 8.
The above image was rendered with GC set at 2.2 for all colours, but any masks, bump maps, specular maps etc have GC set to 1. No, it's not great (very much a WIP), but I was able to do this with IDL - apparently IDL and GC are linked. You might want to have a read of threads on here regarding IDL. Mind you, if you don't want to use IDL, you should be right.
But then, it's even more baffling why you decided to upgrade to 2010. The library?

Quote - Lately, I haven't managed to get anything even half way decent out of PoserPro.  I think I'm relying too much on IDL for lighting, for one thing.  I think I'm starting to hate Gamma correction, too.

Thankfully, you're not required to use either, so just stick with what works best for you and have fun.  Otherwise, what's the point?

:)

RobynsVeil...

You didn't ask me, but Since the OP and I are having identical experiences...

I've not had trouble implementing IDL. It's Gc that is the problem. Turn off GC and IDL works like a charm. BTW... while your image is quite lovely in many respects, the texture shows all of the greyishness and washout that we are talking about. Perhaps it is a difference and what we EXPECT to see. You may like the more desaturated colors.

I decided to go with Pro for the 64-bit interface. That was it. If I could un-install GC, I would. 

Attached Link: full size render here

Yeah, I'm one of those dozens.  I tried GC on this image but did not get good results lol ' . '; So I turned it off and just went with a IBL light with AO and a point light.  

I will keep reading the heavy user's threads on how to use PP10's features like GC and Indirect light.

There are techniques available that have been outlined in other threads on making renderer GC and IDL work together, but as in anything else: it's up to the user how the image is meant to turn out. You're obviously a true artist in that you have a clear image of what you want to produce. Mine is far more nebulous: I wanted pale skin, dark lips, black hair and somber clothing. These all turned out pretty much the way I'd intended. The lip colour is precisely what I was after: it's what I had dialed in in the shader (shader-based makeup).
So, GC didn't do anything to my colours at all, at least, nothing you'd describe.

If you're saying her face/skin is pale/greyish: that's by design. Her lips and eyes and hair aren't. If GC were to render things grey, wouldn't it affect all objects in the scene?

Guess I'm not following. My monitors (I have 3: a netbook, a laptop, and a 5000:1 LG Flatron Wide monitor) and the above image shows up roughly the same on all of them.

Guess it's all what you're used to.

Quote -
If you're saying her face/skin is pale/greyish: that's by design. Her lips and eyes and hair aren't. If GC were to render things grey, wouldn't it affect all objects in the scene?

My apologies. I feel the skin is so pale as to be artificial, but that is only my perception. I thought it was GC that had done it, not you, the creator.

Actually, as I understand the gurus, it wouldn't necessarily lighten EVERYTHING up. IIRC if some of the textures are correctly prepared for GC they will render well, leaving those that are not GC prepared out in the cold to render as they will. I will be delighted to stand corrected on this point, but this is my current understanding of how the system works.

This is the rub: To use GC it appears you have to take a lot of time to rework/prepare your textures, as opposed to what most of us are used to... load a set of stock items off the shelf, light and render. Add to the mix that many of us, despite the tutorials and threads, don't know enough about the material room to make the required changes and we get the situation we now have.

I'm delighted GC works for you and the other advanced users here. I'm sure it is people of your ability level that prompted Smith Micro to add the feature. I was simply comforting a fellow user who is in the same boat as myself! :) No insult to your work was intended.

Fair enough - I can see your point.

@RobynsVeil I upgraded to PoserPro because of GC, 64bit and a few other reasons.
But I had never used GC in Poser before, so I didn't know what I was letting myself in for. Previously I had a prop to fake GC and that worked fine, because it wasn't on the texture.
Now it is, and it's messing me up.
If Poser 9 has 64bit, I likely won't get PoserPro when it follows - unless I get a clue by then. :)
Like I said, it's not the software, it's me. I don't understand enough about it to use it properly, and I'm just starting to lose patience for trying.

But it reassures me to know other people have the same problem. Maybe we will figure it out, maybe we won't. But I kept beating myself up over "You should use GC, it's there, darnit, why doesn't it look right." you know?

Your perception of GC isn't far off, actually: there are more accurate ways of managing colour processing, including corrected sRGB. I don't fault you for wanting to get back to doing art instead of exploring Poser's technical side.
Do keep reading what you can about this... there's a lot of information available. I'm hoping in the meantime a process will be developed for all versions of Poser that will obviate all this theory and head-scratching and allow people to do what they got Poser for originally: focus on creating artwork.

Amen! 

Poser is fun.  That's why I keep using it....  It's fun.   When Poser stops being fun,  then you may have forgotten why you got into Poser in the first place.  When it ain't fun no more, simply step back, take a deep breath and then get back to having fun....  it's no more complicated than that.

take care

Oh my goodness, I hope bagginsbill doesn't read this thread - he'll blow his top.

I struggled with IDL and GC at first, but reading loads of threads here and experimenting got me on the straight and narrow quite quickly. So let me throw in my thoughts:

First of all, if you find IDL and GC "too technical", nobody's forcing you to use them, but you are missing out on powerful new features which will expand your creative abilities. Also, using GC in Poser 8 is a giant pain. In PP2010 it's a cinch.

Secondly, before IDL and Gamma Correction (i.e. up to Poser 7) lighting, shaders and our scene setup workflows were designed to get around the fact that we didn't have IDL and GC (whether we knew it or not). We probably all have legacy content created this way, and it needs to be either scrapped or heavily adapted for use with IDL and GC.

If Silke is getting washed out results, it's quite probably the result of using legacy lighting, shaders and ways of thinking without adapting them for IDL and GC.

If you've been using face_off's Real Skin Shaders, or the ones he designed for DAZ, it's time to abandon them. Switch to BB's VSS: once you've negotiated the initial learning curve, you'll never use anything else.

Here are some key points to remember when using IDL and GC in PP2010:

The GC for images plugged into Diffuse should be left at 'Scene Gamma' (which is set in your render settings), and the diffuse value should be reduced from 1.0 to around 0.8. Almost everything else - maps plugged into transparency, bump, displacement and specular - should be set at GC 1.0. PP2010 has a wacro for doing this.

IDL needs something to bounce off, so use an environment sphere unless the scene is fully enclosed (i.e. has four walls, a floor and ceiling, all visible).

To simulate sunlight, start with 1 pure white indirect light at 100%, raytraced shadows at 100%, and take it from there: with IDL and GC, no additional lights are necessary (example).

Indoor lighting is more tricky, but you should use as few Spot and Point lights as necessary, make sure they all use Inverse Square falloff, and don't be afraid to use quite low intensities: I hardly ever use them at 100%, sometimes getting Point lights as low as 3%.

@RobynsVeil: I'm afraid your perception of GC is miles off.

sRGB isn't an alternative to GC, or something you can add to it. It's a standard which was designed to enable good-quality, consistent color rendition and reproduction on consumer-level imaging devices, based around the performance of a typical CRT display. The average Gamma embedded in the sRGB standard is around 2.2.

If you're referring to an sRGB color profile, this is something that characterises that standard and is used in colour managed systems to translate to and from sRGB. 3D Apps don't have colour management: it is assumed that incoming image maps meet the sRGB standard. When they produce renders, the image files are encoded to meet the sRGB standard.

GC in PoserPro is designed to reverse the sRGB Gamma encoding assumed to be present in image maps and  to make them linear, which means that applying Poser's linear shader nodes to them gives predictable results.

There's a quite lengthy article I did a few months ago here, if it helps.

 Cspear,

You miss the point of the thread.

For many of us who DO use a large amount of legacy content (I'm sorry, I bought it, it works, and I have no reason to abandon it) GC is a nightmare for us. Especially if you don't know where to look in the material room for what you must set to this or that and the changes that "need to be made."

The other point is, GC is a TOOL. We can choose to use it or not, and should not be made to feel we're "not doing it right" if we make that choice. With GC turned off, my Poser works as I expect it to, gives excellent results, and allows me to get things through the pipeline without fiddling with everything in the back room.

I don't quarrel with those who choose to use GC. I expect the same courtesy. That's what the OP says when I read it. He was asking if anyone else had his problems, and I was assuring him he's not alone. Now, this is turning into just another "But you REALLY NEED to use GC thread."

I have to admit I don't really like Poser Pro 2010 very much and don't really use it for the most part. Still using Poser 7 but I do think the GC can be a pain sometimes and it does seem to produce a lot of flat renders. One trick that I sometimes use, that I am sure will be yelled at by the pro GC people, is to turn it on but to reduce the amount from 2.2 to something else. I know it is breaking all of the rules but it does even the too dark darks but still gives contrast that the 2.2 doesn't.

And VSS doesn't work for everyone, whether by preference or just plain old working.

Quote -
And VSS doesn't work for everyone, whether by preference or just plain old working.

I'm SO pleased you posted this. I thought I was the only one!

Quote - Oh my goodness, I hope bagginsbill doesn't read this thread - he'll blow his top.

BB won't blow his top-he'll post a link and a coupe of comparison renders, perhaps remind about monitor calibration, and we'll all learn a bit more.

Laurie will be flattered. 

basicwiz,

I'm sorry, I thought the point of the thread was that Silke was frustrated with the results from using IDL and / or GC, and stated that "it's me" - i.e. doesn't understand it. I know that some threads on this subject have had a high and mighty tone, that you **should **use GC etc., but I don't have that mindset, because:

I was at the point where Silke is now some months ago, trying to get it all to work, feeling like a 2nd class citizen because I couldn't, wondering if it was all nonsense and should I ignore it?

But I stuck at it and now I "get it". Once you get past that "a-ha, *now *I understand!" moment, your enthusiasm and creativity get a real boost. I tried to help because I think that if you have those tools and don't use them, you're missing out. 

I have tons of legacy content, but I've learned how to adapt it. Did acquiring that knowledge require time and effort? Of course. Did I get help from the threads here? Unquestionably, yes. Am I one of the GC nazis who think you're some kind of buffoon if you don't use it? Absolutely not.

Maybe I'll put together a tute on common problems encountered when switching from P7 to P8 / PP2010 and deal with their causes and remedies.

I don't think relearning is the correct term. In my opinion using poser (or any other CG-application) is a process of constant learning.
With every upgrade there are new features that overrule the older ones and you have to learn how use them.

For instance, before poser8  ambient occlusion was the way to produce Global Illumination (well, produce, fake at least). Poser8 introduced IDL which was supposed to be better than AO.

Poserpro (the first , not 2010) introduced Gamma Correction, which started the whole hype about GC and probably was the reason why Bagginsbill showed us the way how to use it in Poser7 and started his mission to convict everyone to use GC. (no bad feelings Ted, I'm a believer) Poser 8 introduced tonemapping, which faked GC, but wasn't the same.
I still can't understand why SM didn't implement GC in Poser8, but that has to be a marketing reason, I suppose.
Anyhow, tonemapping doesn't contribute to the perception why to use Gamma Correction, it only blurs it. 
The point is, the concept of gamma correction is complicated and you need to have a technical brain to understand it. Which is a problem for most artists, who have a more romantical mind. Especially when you're advised to use GC, and your renders look like crap.
It took me several months before I was convinced to use GC and I only can give some advice to those who want to use it in Poserpro and know how to use the material room:

-As RobynsVeil said: set on all your maps except the colormap, the GC to 1.
-Adjust the intensity of you lights untill your satisfied, in my experience GC needs brighter lights, sometimes I had to double the amount.
-The value of the reflectionnode has to be raised as well.

Some more advice, not GC-related:

-If you are using IDL and transparant objects: if it isn't necessary, switch off visible in ray-tracing, it will speed up rendering dramatically and will avoid some nasty artifacts.
-use inverse square attenuation on point- and spotlights, it really make things look better.
-Some old hairprops look terrible in IDL, which is caused by the fact that the polygons don't have any normals. You can fix that in UV-mapper by loading the obj-file and using smoothing normals. (perhaps any other program will do the same, but this how I did it.)
-If you are using an IBL-light and IDL (confusing isn't it?) and you want darker shadows, just lower the intensity of the IBL-light, if you are using BB's environmentsphere, just lower the value on the HSV-node.

Just some things, I "learned" the last months, experiments and visiting this forum keeps me up to date.

best regards,

Bopper.

Edit: WOW, I didn't realise it took me so long to type this reply, a lot of replies have been posted, since I started. What I also wanted to say that a lot of mechants don't bother to use GC or IDL , even now poser 4 or 5  is the standard when selling items, just a colormap in the diffusenode, a transparant map and a bumpmap. So you have to rework them before they acceptable with IDL or GC.

A tute would probably be a great idea, cspear :)
Thing is, I know I have a lot to learn, and I have tried to learn - but I don't use Poser every day, and I use it for fun, to create renders I like.
Since I've been using 2010, that fun has gone down to nearly zero and I don't create renders I like. 
Textures (even new ones) look flat and washed out, dry and brittle. Textures that should have color end up looking pale and unhealthy.
I use my own lights. (I rarely get the result I want from any packaged lights, and there are usually far too many in a package anyway.)
It's not even as much as "I don't understand it". I do, to a degree, but I don't understand why if I follow instructions, I get something completely different as a result.
My monitor is calibrated properly, too. :)

I'm just glad I'm not the only one who has struggled to the point of giving up, with GC.

@ CSpear: I'm fully aware that sRGB is a standard. But thank you for reminding me.

I was referring to another formula, something other than:
linear = sRGB * 2.2
** do diffuse calculations
corrected = diffuse * (1/2.2)

The formula is not my own so I'm not at liberty to publish it, but it has been discussed on this forum, as I'm sure you're aware.

I think that one of the biggest problems with GC and IDL using older shaders is that the GC maginfies the effect of self-illuminating shaders -- and a lot of older shaders use ambient or alternative diffuse, which have the effect of making things glow.

Ohhhh good point! I didn't think about that!

Quote - I was referring to another formula, something other than:
linear = sRGB * 2.2
** do diffuse calculations
corrected = diffuse * (1/2.2)

The formula is not my own so I'm not at liberty to publish it, but it has been discussed on this forum, as I'm sure you're aware.

I'm not aware of a 'secret formula' but I'd be fascinated to know what it is. The formulae to apply and reverse sRGB's gamma functions are in the public domain. They were developed, along with the rest of the sRGB standard specification, by Microsoft, HP and Kodak and have been around for over 10 years. There's a complicated version and a simple version, both produce almost identical results under standard conditions.

There's simply no need for something else.

Attached Link: Full size

By the way, did you know you can turn down the strength setting of IDL? The default is 1, which ruins low light scenes, but if you turn it down to 0.1 or 0.2 you still get the benefit of IDL but keep the low light feel.

Quote - I'm not aware of a 'secret formula' ...

It's not really much of a secret: the original formula was offered by Bagginsbill in the Node for Dummies thread some time ago:

def IF(test, tv, fv): return (1-test) * fv + test * tv
def SRGB(x): return IF(Color_Step(x, .00304), 12.92 * x, 1.055 * (x ** (1/2.4)) - .055)
def ASRGB(x): return IF(Color_Step(x, .03928), x / 12.92, ((x + .055) / 1.055) ** 2.4)

Since then, I've seen a different permutation of this but since I didn't come up with that formula, I don't feel within my rights to share it without permission.

From that discussion, I did get the impression that a number of different colour-correction mechanisms could be employed (not simultaneously, of course), depending on what the lighting conditions were and what the artist wanted or needed to achieve.
However, this has nothing to do with monitor calibration or the sRGB standard, which is how images and colours originate. How Poser uses those colours is what I believe these contrivances address. Might be wrong, of course. There's probably still some key point I'm not grasping.

Snarlygribley...

It would be REALLY helpful if you'd post where to find said adjustment. To tell users that something can be done but give no hint as to how is cruel and unusual punishment, prohibited by the Constitution. 

Nevermind... I found it on D3D's rendering script. Now comes the question... is there any other way to access this parameter, i.e. through the Poser render settings screen?

Basicwiz,

I render using Dimension3D's script, available through the menu. The IDL strength slider is easily found in with all the other IDL settings. It took me a while to even think of moving it - I had no idea why I would want to. Then I did a low light render and none of my figures were casting shadows on the ground, because IDL was blowing them away. I turned IDL strength down to 0.4 and all my shadows came back, but I still had the benefit of IDL. It changed the balance between direct lighting and indirect lighting.

My apologies for being mysterious and enigmatic :-)

Thanks for getting back to me.

Yes, I found the control and have been experimenting with it all morning. I had abandoned IDL for low light renders because of the issues you describe, but now find, like you, my old friend is back regardless of what lighting effect I want.

And I hope you didn't think me mean for asking you to post the control location. It seems to me that in these threads all too often we assume that everyone knows what we know and feel it is a waste of time to fill in the details. There have been many times when I've asked questions here and gotten very accurate answers that made no sense at all to me. I was especially touched by an answer from Bagginsbill. He first gave me the advanced user answer. When I responded with "Huh?" he then gave me a very detailed, step by step solution to my issue that actually helped and solved my problem! We have so much expertise available in these threads... we just have to make sure that we communicate what we know in a way that is useful. Makes for a tough world, doesn't it?

Again, thanks so much for getting back to me and sharing this tidbit!

Just a quick "Heads up"

Head over to Content Paradise and download Demension3D's free update for his Poser 8 Render Control Panel   as well as his free "XLC - eXtended Light Control" ( if you haven't already :)  -  These are DAMN useful.

Attached Link: Full size

Nah, I know you're a good guy :-)

It really wasn't a question of thinking it was a waste of time - I simply didn't know that the Intensity slider wasn't displayed in the Poser render dialog, having only ever used D3D's dialog. Had I known it wasn't displayed I would of course pointed you to D3D's script. 

In the meantime, here's a low light render using GC and IDL. I think it works ok. Smoke is postworked, that's all. 'Full size' link takes you to the image in my gallery.

By the way, how's Doug doing?

Nice bit of work, that! Love the tonal values you've gotten.

I'm seeing similar results with my experiments with adjusting the IDL value. This is an incredibly valuable tool! I can't thank you enough for pointing it out!

As to Doug... hey... he's sold far better than I had suspected he would! I don't mind telling you we are nearing 100 sales, and he's on about 30 people's wishlists! No one has made a single comment about him so far, but I never expected a male character to sell nearly this well. Heck, sometimes I think Trekkkiegirl and I are the only ones who ever render stuff with the male characters! ROFLMAO. Thanks for asking about my "boy."

Quote - Just a quick "Heads up"

Head over to Content Paradise and download Demension3D's free update for his Poser 8 Render Control Panel   as well as his free "XLC - eXtended Light Control" ( if you haven't already :)  -  These are DAMN useful.

I couldn't find the Render Control Panel at CP.

It's not there. It's at D3D's site. Try this link: 
http://d3d.sesseler.de/index.php?software=poserpython&product=render_p8 

Quote - It's not there. It's at D3D's site. Try this link: 
http://d3d.sesseler.de/index.php?software=poserpython&product=render_p8 

Thanks

@ Basicwiz

Hell no. I render the guys all the time. :)
And when I see something I really like, I grab it.
Doug is great - I just have no need for him. :)

I should add -- I picked up Semidieu's Advanced Render 2 on RDNA and I'm loving that.
Sooooo many options and soooooooooo much quicker to do the ole trial and error diffuse / grayscale settings!

I recommend it. Thoroughly. Especially the latest release, he's really gone all out. :)

If you do use IDL (and I do) there are a ton more options in there for it.

Yeah he does most excellent work!  I love his stuff :)