hmmmm, you know I've never used it wimvdb... and you're right it does look like your standard gizmo. Feel kinda stupid now! That's OK, who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks... especially ones that are so obvious as to not be noticed.

Thanks!

...Huh, wow... hilarious, so used to using the translate tool as my standard in "hand" tool that this is going to take some getting used to. Standard procedure is to use the translate tool for broad movements and the parameters for rotations and precise translations, quite a revelation. Oooops, sorry just having a Poser surprise moment. 

I looked at IRAY with DAZ4.8... not free. The renderer is, but you buy all the texture stuff separately... ever added up all the 'add ons' that DAZ have available? Comes to 100's of dollars. Not free.

Oh, BTW, I use an AMD video card. IRAY is no advantage to me over Luxrender. Which IS free.

I think you are referring to vendor products as add ons, as there are no iray add ons. Of course they aren't free. Iray provides you with everything to do your own shaders and lights. Only thing DAZ sells with iray right now are lights. You can plug in your own HDR lights or create emission surfaces (and go to lighting manufacturers' websites to download EIS profiles) if you do not wish to pay. You can also pay around with the settings to convert old sets to look better without paying for anything. What you are paying for is the convenience of not doing it yourself. Also luxrender is free, though they are asking for donations to help keep their site running. Unless you are using the free script to export it from poser, you are paying for Reality, which makes it a bit easier to convert materials because you are paying for the convenience to do so.

I agree with metaballs and particle effects,but on Particle Effects snarlygribbly(creator of EZSkin and other plugins) has created new plugin which is now in beta testing and you can contact snarlygribbly over on RDNA about this "Beta test" But at first those creators or vendors of those figures,you want better bending must create figure which will bend better(you can have look on several figures which does bend better,but still they have lots of flaws),I do want from figure to bend better,but sometimes this is only wishful thinking 

Better hair or better clothing,this is down to vendors too,but for Poser native figures I do want to have better figures,clothing,hair etc.,but again I would rather prefer if SM or Poser creators started to look on other render engine and better light setup,on Render engine,out are several good free render engines which can be used with Poser Pro and for render preview I do want from Poser pro to support Direct X preview not old OpenGL or at least make,we support Multicore or support GPU and will not crawl to stop when you add there 4 figures and few big props and on light I would want from SM to start have look on mesh lights and abandon those old lights,yes we can use those lights with conjunction with mesh lights

Thanks,Jura 

DirectX is Windows only, so don't hold your breathe waiting on it to arrive.  SM does need to work on memory optimization IMO.

I agree with metaballs and particle effects,but on Particle Effects snarlygribbly(creator of EZSkin and other plugins) has created new plugin which is now in beta testing and you can contact snarlygribbly over on RDNA about this "Beta test" But at first those creators or vendors of those figures,you want better bending must create figure which will bend better(you can have look on several figures which does bend better,but still they have lots of flaws),I do want from figure to bend better,but sometimes this is only wishful thinking 

Better hair or better clothing,this is down to vendors too,but for Poser native figures I do want to have better figures,clothing,hair etc.,but again I would rather prefer if SM or Poser creators started to look on other render engine and better light setup,on Render engine,out are several good free render engines which can be used with Poser Pro and for render preview I do want from Poser pro to support Direct X preview not old OpenGL or at least make,we support Multicore or support GPU and will not crawl to stop when you add there 4 figures and few big props and on light I would want from SM to start have look on mesh lights and abandon those old lights,yes we can use those lights with conjunction with mesh lights

Thanks,Jura 

DirectX is Windows only, so don't hold your breathe waiting on it to arrive.  SM does need to work on memory optimization IMO.

Yes agree DirectX is only Windows and due this I'm not holding my breath on this,because MacOSX owners will be screwed as they will be must using OGL and Windows users can choose DirectX or OGL,which can be pitty on long run  DirectX 12 is around corner which can bring exciting things and same can be said about the Vulkan which should be great too.

Memory optimization,I've just compared my old scene which I've created in Poser pro 2012,this same scene in task manger have or take from memory around 875MB,in Poser pro 2014 this same scene takes around 1.3GB and difference in viewport,viewport in PP2014 is bit slow and in PP2012 is bit faster

Thanks,Jura

I looked at IRAY with DAZ4.8... not free. The renderer is, but you buy all the texture stuff separately... ever added up all the 'add ons' that DAZ have available? Comes to 100's of dollars. Not free.

Oh, BTW, I use an AMD video card. IRAY is no advantage to me over Luxrender. Which IS free.

I think you are referring to vendor products as add ons, as there are no iray add ons. Of course they aren't free. Iray provides you with everything to do your own shaders and lights. Only thing DAZ sells with iray right now are lights. You can plug in your own HDR lights or create emission surfaces (and go to lighting manufacturers' websites to download EIS profiles) if you do not wish to pay. You can also pay around with the settings to convert old sets to look better without paying for anything. What you are paying for is the convenience of not doing it yourself. Also luxrender is free, though they are asking for donations to help keep their site running. Unless you are using the free script to export it from poser, you are paying for Reality, which makes it a bit easier to convert materials because you are paying for the convenience to do so.

Hi there I wouldn't compare IRAY with Reality or Luxrender at first place,IRAY I've used on numerous occasion not just in DAZ,but with 3DS MAX when I've owned Nvidia card,but still I've been unable to reproduce same details or same skins like with Luxrender 

Reality with all in will never go in 100's USD,you will pay once and have all there and you don't need to pay extra for shaders if you are Poser user,not sure if in DAZ you need to use different shaders as I've never used there Reality,yes agree Reality is lot more slower than IRAY,but with new Luxrender we should have much faster rendering system 

I've rendered with IRAY too with DS,I like the idea of this,but still this SW or renderer will never will be working on AMD GPU which you can't say about the Luxrender,due this most of people will rather go route of Lux/Reality if they want to harness GPU,older Lux has have issue with GPU,but newer beta which I've tried is much faster than with GPU or CPU,time will tell us

As I said about the DAZ,they're like drug dealers,everything which will give as first,later will cost you,this I don't like on the DAZ

I don't have anything against anyone,but sometimes I just think they(DAZ3D) using their dominant position in wrong way(monopoly?)

Thanks,Jura

I looked at IRAY with DAZ4.8... not free. The renderer is, but you buy all the texture stuff separately... ever added up all the 'add ons' that DAZ have available? Comes to 100's of dollars. Not free.

Oh, BTW, I use an AMD video card. IRAY is no advantage to me over Luxrender. Which IS free.

I think you are referring to vendor products as add ons, as there are no iray add ons. Of course they aren't free. Iray provides you with everything to do your own shaders and lights. Only thing DAZ sells with iray right now are lights. You can plug in your own HDR lights or create emission surfaces (and go to lighting manufacturers' websites to download EIS profiles) if you do not wish to pay. You can also pay around with the settings to convert old sets to look better without paying for anything. What you are paying for is the convenience of not doing it yourself. Also luxrender is free, though they are asking for donations to help keep their site running. Unless you are using the free script to export it from poser, you are paying for Reality, which makes it a bit easier to convert materials because you are paying for the convenience to do so.

Hi there I wouldn't compare IRAY with Reality or Luxrender at first place,IRAY I've used on numerous occasion not just in DAZ,but with 3DS MAX when I've owned Nvidia card,but still I've been unable to reproduce same details or same skins like with Luxrender 

Reality with all in will never go in 100's USD,you will pay once and have all there and you don't need to pay extra for shaders if you are Poser user,not sure if in DAZ you need to use different shaders as I've never used there Reality,yes agree Reality is lot more slower than IRAY,but with new Luxrender we should have much faster rendering system 

I've rendered with IRAY too with DS,I like the idea of this,but still this SW or renderer will never will be working on AMD GPU which you can't say about the Luxrender,due this most of people will rather go route of Lux/Reality if they want to harness GPU,older Lux has have issue with GPU,but newer beta which I've tried is much faster than with GPU or CPU,time will tell us

As I said about the DAZ,they're like drug dealers,everything which will give as first,later will cost you,this I don't like on the DAZ

I don't have anything against anyone,but sometimes I just think they(DAZ3D) using their dominant position in wrong way(monopoly?)

Thanks,Jura

I think you're still not getting it. What add ons are available with iray? Links please? That's right. There are none. If you are linking vendor products, those are NOT add ons. So your cost to use iray is $0. If you do not wish to use vendor products and make shaders yourself, you can very well do that or find a freebie. Your argument is no different than a offering a figure for free, then you have either purchase content of find freebies, or make it yourself. I'm sorry but your argument is very flawed.

I have licenses for Octane and Reality as well, and used luxrender for my renders and promos for years. For reality, with the upgrades I am at the $100 mark, as I'm was an early adopter. Was an early adopter for Octane too and spent hundreds on those licenses too. AMD cards aren't an issue with me, as those cards historically have lower performance than their counterparts in Nvidia and and chipsets with Intel processors. Both Octane and Iray use gpu with CUDA because it has way higher performance than OpenCL.

Also your argument with Reality incorrect. When Reality was released, it was pretty much like what Iray was now. There were actually products that worked with Reality made by vendors at DAZ. So you could buy products specially that worked with Reality, which then converted it to a format Luxrender could read. I did a few promos for a few of those products. When Paolo's store was removed, all those products were removed as well.

Also I won't get into quality of renders made by these products, because it really comes down to the skill of the user. They all produce physically based renders, so if you know how each product works, you can come up with the same results.

And as far as being a monopoly or drug dealers, no one is forcing you to buy anything. You pay for convenience. If you want to make it yourself, you are able to do it... you just need to roll up your sleeves and learn how to make shaders, lights or clothing. If you don't want to learn, then you pay for the service. That's how businesses are run. Anyone can start a business too, but your product needs to be good, not just because it's not made a company, because that's not how the general public spends their money. Maybe that's where the perception comes from.

I looked at IRAY with DAZ4.8... not free. The renderer is, but you buy all the texture stuff separately... ever added up all the 'add ons' that DAZ have available? Comes to 100's of dollars. Not free.

Oh, BTW, I use an AMD video card. IRAY is no advantage to me over Luxrender. Which IS free.

I think you are referring to vendor products as add ons, as there are no iray add ons. Of course they aren't free. Iray provides you with everything to do your own shaders and lights. Only thing DAZ sells with iray right now are lights. You can plug in your own HDR lights or create emission surfaces (and go to lighting manufacturers' websites to download EIS profiles) if you do not wish to pay. You can also pay around with the settings to convert old sets to look better without paying for anything. What you are paying for is the convenience of not doing it yourself. Also luxrender is free, though they are asking for donations to help keep their site running. Unless you are using the free script to export it from poser, you are paying for Reality, which makes it a bit easier to convert materials because you are paying for the convenience to do so.

Hi there I wouldn't compare IRAY with Reality or Luxrender at first place,IRAY I've used on numerous occasion not just in DAZ,but with 3DS MAX when I've owned Nvidia card,but still I've been unable to reproduce same details or same skins like with Luxrender 

Reality with all in will never go in 100's USD,you will pay once and have all there and you don't need to pay extra for shaders if you are Poser user,not sure if in DAZ you need to use different shaders as I've never used there Reality,yes agree Reality is lot more slower than IRAY,but with new Luxrender we should have much faster rendering system 

I've rendered with IRAY too with DS,I like the idea of this,but still this SW or renderer will never will be working on AMD GPU which you can't say about the Luxrender,due this most of people will rather go route of Lux/Reality if they want to harness GPU,older Lux has have issue with GPU,but newer beta which I've tried is much faster than with GPU or CPU,time will tell us

As I said about the DAZ,they're like drug dealers,everything which will give as first,later will cost you,this I don't like on the DAZ

I don't have anything against anyone,but sometimes I just think they(DAZ3D) using their dominant position in wrong way(monopoly?)

Thanks,Jura

I think you're still not getting it. What add ons are available with iray? Links please? That's right. There are none. If you are linking vendor products, those are NOT add ons. So your cost to use iray is $0. If you do not wish to use vendor products and make shaders yourself, you can very well do that or find a freebie. Your argument is no different than a offering a figure for free, then you have either purchase content of find freebies, or make it yourself. I'm sorry but your argument is very flawed.

I have licenses for Octane and Reality as well, and used luxrender for my renders and promos for years. For reality, with the upgrades I am at the $100 mark, as I'm was an early adopter. Was an early adopter for Octane too and spent hundreds on those licenses too. AMD cards aren't an issue with me, as those cards historically have lower performance than their counterparts in Nvidia and and chipsets with Intel processors. Both Octane and Iray use gpu with CUDA because it has way higher performance than OpenCL.

Also your argument with Reality incorrect. When Reality was released, it was pretty much like what Iray was now. There were actually products that worked with Reality made by vendors at DAZ. So you could buy products specially that worked with Reality, which then converted it to a format Luxrender could read. I did a few promos for a few of those products. When Paolo's store was removed, all those products were removed as well.

Also I won't get into quality of renders made by these products, because it really comes down to the skill of the user. They all produce physically based renders, so if you know how each product works, you can come up with the same results.

And as far as being a monopoly or drug dealers, no one is forcing you to buy anything. You pay for convenience. If you want to make it yourself, you are able to do it... you just need to roll up your sleeves and learn how to make shaders, lights or clothing. If you don't want to learn, then you pay for the service. That's how businesses are run. Anyone can start a business too, but your product needs to be good, not just because it's not made a company, because that's not how the general public spends their money. Maybe that's where the perception comes from.

Hi there With Reality you are paid $100,yes if you are got every version then yes,this should be correct,but those are upgrades as you pointed out,nobody will stop you not using older version and about the Reality when has been released and about their addons,not sure,this I don't know and really I don't care as I don't use Reality in DS or DS,I've used DS only handful times for export to FBX,but this has giving me strange problems and issues and due this I do rather use OBJ

Yes sadly Octane cost the money,I wanted to get Octane too for Poser and 3DS MAX I've almost bought it,but after I've tried on my GPU this time,I simply would need to upgrade to GTX780Ti(this card still selling pretty much for £300) or something better and with bigger VRAM and biggest card has been this time Titan and this card cost £1000 and simply I can't justify this price on single GPU,but V3 I will be getting if OpenCL version will be available and then I will be getting for 3DS MAX and Poser 

Octane will support from V3 OpenCL too and then we will see where and how both will compare and about the OpenCL vs CUDA debate,depends on specific apps,I would say and really say something have lower performance than their counterparts,this is bit misleading I can say this mildly at least,you simply cannot compare 2 year old R9 290 to GTX980 which cost 2-3 times more and performance depends too on specific apps and games,if game is based on Nvidia Gameworks then who have AMD is screwed at least and if you are cmparing this with games,then compare games where is not used Nvidia sh1t Gameworks and PhysX

And about the lower performance,this again depends,you still can soft mod yours AMD card to FirePRO,can you do that with yours nVidia card I don't think so there,I do use my R9 290 in 3DS MAX and with high poly scene I never have any issue with low FPS in preview window/viewport and I previously used like GTX780 or GTX560Ti with which I've only troubles

OpenCL is same if not better than CUDA,which I've tried,again this depends on apps and if developer doesn't spend bit more time with this,then you can have slower or no performance at all,have look on Adobe why they moved from CUDA to OpenCL and many other companies moving towards to OpenCL,OpenCL matured enough to be supported,earlier apps or earlier OpenCL has been pain,but right now is way to go,just have look on Otoy why they going with OpenCL? If you are selling SW,I would go with this where I can make money,in CUDA you need to use Nvidia GPU with OpenCL you can use anything,which means they should make bit more money

CUDA doesn't have way higher performance than OpenCL without the testing both or comparing both on similar HW(2 year old R9 290 have similar performance as GTX980 in OpenCL LuxMark,old GTX780 is lot slower than similarly old AMD cards) or you can try to test in app which does support OpenCL and CUDA 

Agree on nVidia cards OpenCL is hampered as this will compete with their CUDA,this has been proven on numerous cards 

Just have look,I will make better renders with V-RAY than with IRAY where I will need to spend lot more time(3DS MAX),I'm now not saying about the DS,as I said,I don't use it all,if yes then is I need to convert only DS clothing to Poser or I rather use D3D script etc and yes is down to skill of user and about the Reality or Luxrender,I do use both and there I rarely need any help or something like this and still I can easily reproduce what I want to and there is very helpful bunch of people over on RDNA or Luxrender forums 

Drug dealer too not forcing to buy his stuff or do you ? You are still free to make own stuff(drugs)if you know how to same as with everything and yes that's the way how is business run,sadly that's the truth and my perception or other people,who cares,we are here for them to spend with them,if you do have issue,simply they don't care 

And lastly not sure,but why you are still defending DS over here on Poser forums or Poser threads,not just here on RDNA too,I know you are vendor over on DAZ3D,but why you over here there? Do you need to defend DS/DAZ? Or are you paid by DAZ? 

About my flawed argument about the addons,but still they're addons,IRAY addons,if they're vendor addons,who cares,everyone will see as ADDON,nothing more

Thanks,Jura

Wow, another pointless exercise in futility. 

What's the direction for PP2015?

How about adding an instant DAZ Studio bash button.

Seems the main thing people bang on about around here.

Typical convo goes a little like.

"Do you think Smith Micro might be able to add 'X' to Poser as the current implementation is not very good?"

"You DAZ STUDIO Lover! What are you even doing here no one want to hear about your DAZ STUDIO obsession!"

"But I didn't even mention DS I was just saying that it would be good to see some improvement with 'X' in Poser..."

"No!!! You are wrong why do you need to always defend Daz Studio. I will not listen to anything you say, because YOU ARE DAZ STUDIO and therefore "A" the enemy and "B" always wrong!"

I mean it's so crazy that you even see two dedicated Poser users descend very quickly into an argument about DS, that's totally unrelated to their own actual comments or the even the threads subject. Disagree=Attack DS is pretty much the formula for threads here. The assumption that it's those DS users showing up causing issues here is pure fantasy. 

•••••••••

The DAZ drug dealer analogy is just bizarre too, lol, I mean really. Btw, Are you ready for Windows 10? I also don't really see how a company based on community inclusiveness for product content creation can be seen as a monopoly. Doesn't a monopolistic company usually do the opposite?

••••••••••••

How hard is it to keep a thread on topic and not talk to each other like complete crap for just voicing opinions that differ from your own...

Wow, another pointless exercise in futility. 

What's the direction for PP2015?

How about adding an instant DAZ Studio bash button.

Seems the main thing people bang on about around here.

Typical convo goes a little like.

"Do you think Smith Micro might be able to add 'X' to Poser as the current implementation is not very good?"

"You DAZ STUDIO Lover! What are you even doing here no one want to hear about your DAZ STUDIO obsession!"

"But I didn't even mention DS I was just saying that it would be good to see some improvement with 'X' in Poser..."

"No!!! You are wrong why do you need to always defend Daz Studio. I will not listen to anything you say, because YOU ARE DAZ STUDIO and therefore "A" the enemy and "B" always wrong!"

I mean it's so crazy that you even see two dedicated Poser users descend very quickly into an argument about DS, that's totally unrelated to their own actual comments or the even the threads subject. Disagree=Attack DS is pretty much the formula for threads here. The assumption that it's those DS users showing up causing issues here is pure fantasy. 

•••••••••

The DAZ drug dealer analogy is just bizarre too, lol, I mean really. Btw, Are you ready for Windows 10? I also don't really see how a company based on community inclusiveness for product content creation can be seen as a monopoly. Doesn't a monopolistic company usually do the opposite?

••••••••••••

How hard is it to keep a thread on topic and not talk to each other like complete crap for just voicing opinions that differ from your own...

Agree drug analogy is bizarre and wrong,but I'm standing what I've said about the OpenCL and other things I'm just fed up with people who trying to say,everything is great with DAZ and DAZ doesn't have any flaws,every SW have flaws that's how is build,I don't know any SW which has been flawless from start

As we are said,what we are want to add,I want better GPU scaling,instancing etc.,do we are tried say anything about the DS where is bad.we are said,IRAY is not good for us who owning AMD card,bloody hell,please read!

Did ever been free version of the Windows? I just don't think has been any version of Windows free,then I'm not sure what you mean,I don't be upgrading to W10,that's for sure,W7 is enough for me and if will be supported that's good for me,unless AMD and other companies will pull the plug,which I don't think this will happen right now,I don't play and due this I wouldn't benefiting from DirectX 12

And about the monopoly,monopoly can be seen from different sides,they act as monopoly is many ways as every company

As above I said,what I know and what I want from SM as starting place,better lights,supporting at least bloody Mesh lights,better multicore/multi threaded support in Viewport etc

Thanks,Jura

Windows 10 will be free for Windows 7 and 8 users, which would be the majority of windows users.

I don't want to denigrate this conversation any further than it has been already. But it's not possible for all companies to be monopolistic. It's a little like saying "We are all the best." Also it's not surprising that iRay doesn't play well with AMD cards, as it's developed by Nvidia to showcase and make use of Nvidia developed tech.... I wouldn't expect to see any partnership between SM and Chaos Group in the near future either, so I wouldn't hold your breath about seeing any in house GPU support in PP2015. The DS bashing comment was not directed at yourself but at earlier contributors to this thread. 

"As we are said,what we are want to add,I want better GPU scaling,instancing etc.,do we are tried say anything about the DS where is bad.we are said,IRAY is not good for us who owning AMD card,bloody hell,please read!" <-- This is "Bloody" pure gold!

Wow, another pointless exercise in futility. 

What's the direction for PP2015?

How about adding an instant DAZ Studio bash button.

Seems the main thing people bang on about around here.

Typical convo goes a little like.

"Do you think Smith Micro might be able to add 'X' to Poser as the current implementation is not very good?"

"You DAZ STUDIO Lover! What are you even doing here no one want to hear about your DAZ STUDIO obsession!"

"But I didn't even mention DS I was just saying that it would be good to see some improvement with 'X' in Poser..."

"No!!! You are wrong why do you need to always defend Daz Studio. I will not listen to anything you say, because YOU ARE DAZ STUDIO and therefore "A" the enemy and "B" always wrong!"

I mean it's so crazy that you even see two dedicated Poser users descend very quickly into an argument about DS, that's totally unrelated to their own actual comments or the even the threads subject. Disagree=Attack DS is pretty much the formula for threads here. The assumption that it's those DS users showing up causing issues here is pure fantasy. 

•••••••••

The DAZ drug dealer analogy is just bizarre too, lol, I mean really. Btw, Are you ready for Windows 10? I also don't really see how a company based on community inclusiveness for product content creation can be seen as a monopoly. Doesn't a monopolistic company usually do the opposite?

••••••••••••

How hard is it to keep a thread on topic and not talk to each other like complete crap for just voicing opinions that differ from your own...

Agree drug analogy is bizarre and wrong,but I'm standing what I've said about the OpenCL and other things I'm just fed up with people who trying to say,everything is great with DAZ and DAZ doesn't have any flaws,every SW have flaws that's how is build,I don't know any SW which has been flawless from start

As we are said,what we are want to add,I want better GPU scaling,instancing etc.,do we are tried say anything about the DS where is bad.we are said,IRAY is not good for us who owning AMD card,bloody hell,please read!

Did ever been free version of the Windows? I just don't think has been any version of Windows free,then I'm not sure what you mean,I don't be upgrading to W10,that's for sure,W7 is enough for me and if will be supported that's good for me,unless AMD and other companies will pull the plug,which I don't think this will happen right now,I don't play and due this I wouldn't benefiting from DirectX 12

And about the monopoly,monopoly can be seen from different sides,they act as monopoly is many ways as every company

As above I said,what I know and what I want from SM as starting place,better lights,supporting at least bloody Mesh lights,better multicore/multi threaded support in Viewport etc

Thanks,Jura

In short, I think you lost your argument when you decided not to go with actual facts to defend your position and instead went with bashing DS and accusing me of defending DAZ. I'm still waiting on iray add-on links and actual defending of your points. Arguing about future product features that will be better than current offerings of a different company is moot until they actually happen. You may end up spending additional money because that new feature may only work with certain hardware. You won't know until it releases. And as far as GPU rendering goes, there is a reason that most major renderers are Nvidia only. Adding OpenCL or mixing CPU and GPU means compatibility, but the performance will be less than pure GPU power Nvidia cards offer. So if you want faster renderers, you pick the appropriate hardware. OpenCL and AMD isn't the hardware of choice for that. And there is no monopoly. Period. There are other companies that provide content and figures. It's up to the customers who decide who they pay their money to because of the quality of their products, because their money is precious to them and they could care less about the political speculation some want to perpetuate in the forums.

Forgive us for not taking things as seriously as you do, Male_M3dia... I'll run out right now and spend $500 on an Nvidia card so I can access the glorious free IRAY of DS4.8. How stupid of me. And here I was just adding to a conversation on what I would like to see added to Poser. BTW, if you're wondering where I got $500 from, I live in Australia... that's what they cost here (at least comparable to the AMD card I already have).

I like Poser. I have no problem with DS, I'm just not familiar with it. I'm watching Blender cycles for OpenCL support.

Frankly, whenever a new version of a renderer comes out, or DS update their product I check them out. To date I have not seen a single render produced that would make me undertake the learning curve to access their environment. Maybe one day, but not at present.

"Frankly, whenever a new version of a renderer comes out, or DS update their product I check them out. To date I have not seen a single render produced that would make to undertake the learning curve to access their environment. Maybe one day, but not at present."

Really where have you been looking? Have you seen anything from Mec4D using DS and iRay? May I ask which renderer it is you prefer?

Also you don't need an Nvidia card to use iRay, it runs using CPU as well and quite fast too on my system, especially compared to other PBR renderers.

Yes I have, and it's not that I have a 'preferred' renderer... if I thought Poser was perfect I wouldn't be posting on a wishlist thread. I'll highlight the important bit of my post...

NOT ENOUGH TO UNDERTAKE THE LEARNING CURVE

Clear now?

I know IRAY runs on CPU... I don't like DS. I am familiar with Poser. I'm not bashing DS, I AM getting confused with all the 'Poser is dead move to DS' rubbish that's showing up on a Poser wishlist thread. If you use something else, good luck to you, have a nice day.

Hmm I didn't see anywhere on this thread anyone say anything about Poser is dead/embrace DS? Can you direct me to that part please? I must of missed it. I must admit that there has been a fair bit of DS bashing you know like DAZ3D are "drug dealers" "Daz 4.8 is not free as you 'need' to buy addons" "Retarded content Libraries" etc. Even a couple of confirmed Poser users accusing each other of having DS pro motivations in there comments quite bizarrely. 

It's funny for someone declaring to be unbiased and not Daz Bashing your first post in this thread tends to have fairly hostile tones towards Daz Studio. But thanks for being clear in bold caps though. Really helped show a friendly face to the forum for me. ;)

Anyways to go back on topic as this is meant to be about Poser upgrades, right?

How about Native support for Genesis figures? Cross compatibility with .duf file formats?

I know for a fact that DAZ3D have approached Smith Micro a number of times to help integrate the genesis figures into Poser natively, only to be flatly refused. Why is this not something being seriously looked at by Smith Micro? The fastest way to change from industry leader to yesterday's hero is to lose touch with your market. Why would Smith Micro refuse to help integrate content from the largest content provider in the market? Seems self defeating.

Wolf359, commenting on Daz Iridium. It was a long rant, so easy to miss.

I didn't make the drug dealer reference, buying 'add ons' is the basis of Daz Studio's business model (or why give the software away for free?) and was only a reference to true cost, not 'bashing the product'.

You might also note that my comment on the retarded library was acknowledged as being due to a lack of familiarity on my part.

Sorry about the bold caps. It seemed to me that you had missed the point I was making entirely; I am not wedded to any one package. I will change when I feel the effort is worthwhile. It has not happened yet. I still don't see how people saying IRAY is better is in any way helping Poser. You also seemed to read my lack of familiarity with DS as 'hostility'. Strange. I have the program, I try it from time to time, I get frustrated with it after 10 minutes, close it. My problem. I know plenty of people use it just fine. I just happen to be NOT one of them.

You can ask for native Genesis support if you want. Your choice. I don't care for the figure, but sure it is a wishlist. Not sure how the previous politics is relevant though. Hmmm, why don't DAZ and SM decide on a common platform for all figures? While we're at it, why not include Max, C4D, Unity... all as common language so they are ALL cross platform? I mean, it's not like they're separate companies, is it?

Just to clear things up a little, iRay doesn't in fact compete directly with Poser at all. It competes with the Firefly engine the default Poser render engine. I don't think there is too much room to argue the merits of a biased render engine over a PBR engine for anyone looking for realism in their renders. Though biased render engines still have their place away from the realism sector in cartoon styles and such. This step forward ,as Wolf359 states, does leave Poser a length behind in capability, as Poser currently doesn't have native support for a PBR engine and relies on 3rd party integration to support this sector. This moving forward may leave Poser relying on 3rd parties for core program capability and for Content development. Which isn't a very strong position market wise.

Poser is a content platform and a content platform is only as strong as its core capabilities paired with it's compatibility for content. A strong platform with low support compatibility will usually see platforms niched and growth decline. Imho if Smith Micro wants to best serve its Poser community it first needs to focus on broadening its compatibility field to cater to the markets segments which are currently strengthening in the sector such as DAZ3D content, either that or fast track it's own content development capabilities to compete and provide comparable or superior content options for Poser users. So far SM has shown little interest in this area and what they have done in the past has met with limited success. I believe cost may be the main barrier for SM here.

As far as the comparisons you have drawn about Poser supporting 3rd party content, it's closer to a web browser manufacturer saying sure HTML5 is here but we don't feel we need to support it in our web browser, we will just keep struggling on and hope it's a fad. Photoshop saying what do those Joint Photographic Experts Groups know we are doing our own thing, let's just forget .jpg support it's too much work to integrate anyway. Generally there are two reasons not to increase compatibility that will benefit your platform's user base, the first is cost the second is competitive reasons. I believe cost would be the factor for Smith Micro in this department also as it stands to lose nothing with increased compatibility.

I have to say I disagree with your negative take on DS being free as well, here are some advantages of the model DAZ3D have implemented. Low fragmentation on version number (Which has become a big issue with Poser and it's internal compatibility issue), the ability to build the app around content development and features (DAZ works side by side with it's content developers often implementing core changes to DS based on their feedback), low buy in price for new users (Speaks for itself really). Iridium comes with a load of Iray shaders, lights and content. You don't 'need' to purchase anything in addition to use iRay with existing content or create your own. But you may want to.

Try this analogy DS is like iTunes free to download the player with an ongoing cost to buy content if you want it. Smith Micro is becoming like a Tape deck Boombox manufacturer. Smith Micro profits from the sale of the device, so it doesn't really care much about making music as it doesn't profit from this aspect of the market. The Boombox sounds great, looks cool and everyone loved in it's heyday but it's becoming harder and harder to buy music for it, a lot of the latest releases go straight to iTunes missing the Boombox segment completely. It's simple to fix the Boom Boxes issues for the manufacturers by adding in mp3 support to the Boombox to make it relevant again. But if the Boombox manufacturers wait too long or can't afford to update the compatibility options or worse still stubbornly refuse to collaborate, then people will start to say, do I really need a Boombox ? I get itunes for free, so what does a Boom Box give me that iTunes doesn't.

This area is what SM need to nail and focus on in the future. What is it that Poser does better than it's competitors?

If it's beginning to fall behind on program capability and it's allowing a lessening in it's compatibility base. What is its core strength? From my point of view it seems like its cash starved development wise and has a shrinking compatibility with content. Not a very strong position to offer competitive development within the sector. Or to stand out as a good choice for new user take up, this is compounded by its high buy in price for new users.

But what do I know I'm just a DS user ;) ...

Best answer yet. Thanks. I wasn't bashing DS being free, just stating it was a business model. You're right that making it free spares money for content rather than on upgrading the core software. You're also right that the Poser community is fractured with so many still using Poser 7. I started with Poser. I use Carrara and occasionally Blender. It is what I am familiar with. I CHOOSE to buy the upgrades rather than learn Daz Studio because (at least until 4.8) the renders didn't impress me. At least, not better than what I could already achieve with what I had. Could Poser integrate with other stuff better? Absolutely. Would I like native support for an unbiased renderer? Absolutely, especially if it supports instancing, but NOT if I also have to fork out for a new graphics card. At least not yet. I had my car stolen twice in a month; not much left of it, so my money is going elsewhere for at least a year.

Poser isn't perfect, but I understand it. Carrara could use some love too (I think it's a much better product than Studio), but not going to happen. It's going to take a lot more than IRAY to get me to change. Anyway, I'm signing off this thread. Enjoy your DSing!

"You're right that making it free spares money for content rather than on upgrading the core software."

While this is correct to a degree, what's more interesting is that success with Daz content sales means increased revenue for DAZ which allows greater funding on core software updates and not in fact less. Which creates a coupled growth pattern such as. Better content means more revenue, means more development funding for core software functionality, which means better content, which means more revenue and so on and so on.

Smith Micro have been niched into a model like sell software, sell upgrade, sell upgrade. Which is much slower development wise and less lucrative in the long term. And unfortunately carrara and bryce share a similar model which has led to where they are today development wise.

Each to their own, as they say. And preference and exposure do play a big part into what app your prefer. But its worth saying that there is room going forward to see a strong Poser and a strong DS in this market sector and doesn't need to be an either or situation. But Smith Micro need to get damn creative if they want to keep up and there needs to be more collaboration and less demarcation between the camps which will ultimately be to Poser's benefit in the long term. Making DAZ the enemy is not a path forward that I can see ending well for Poser.

Car stolen twice in a month you might want to move out of Sunnyvale :P 

There is a lot of useful information on this thread ... and a lot of veiled and not so veiled personal attacks.  Let us keep this thread helpful and productive.  You guys are quite knowledgeable ... I respect that.  Being kind in your disagreements will be appreciated and will cost you nothing. 

"Do Art" button...

Already exists. Well "Make Art" anyway. Under scripts hit Wardrobe Wizard. I have been waiting and waiting and waiting and still waiting for Phil C to "Make" a male character named "Art" as in "I made Art!" now shut up

i'm guessing the,
needs of game devs are different. they need lower poly, lower res figures?
and they need figures and content which include game license use? 
game license seems expensive.

these needs are very different then someone like me looking to render book covers that will fool people into thinking the models on the cover are real people.

As a consumer, i'm back to the decision of what will fit my needs, on a budget. 

so, i'se interested in what direction Poser is going.

Second hand Christal ball for sale ! Used only once.

I asked my Christal ball; "Hey; What about Poser's future?"

You know what the thing said??

It lit up and said ; "Ask Nerd3D. What do I know. . . . . "

It can not go North. It is too cold up there for the barely dressed Poser figures.
It can not go South; It is too hot for rendering CPU's.
it can not go East; Russian economy is sinking.
It can not go West.  West? That is in the ocean? And Poser figures do not have a swimming license.

So?
The Cristal ball goes on sale.

if nerd peeked in this thread, prolly backed out on all the off topic.  but, i guess, from a biz standpoint, they couldn't tell us anyways.

side note to the ds vendors - i no haz nvidia.  
iray promos - is like a decaf cuppa ;) 

@ MLP
No worries, all my PC's are on ATI/AMD cards also.

Poser needs RAM and CPU cores, that's all.

Does Poser have actual collision detection now? I mean, I know about the red collision indicator but I mean a function that stops the intersection of objects in a scene... still using an older version so I'm not sure if the implementation of bullet resulted in this feature. Would be very useful in Poser in a toggle capacity, kinda like Carrara.

jeez, Iray needs invidia? once again a renderer I can't use (radeon).  didn't know Iray was free, but would hafta buy new comp.

jeez, Iray needs invidia? once again a renderer I can't use (radeon).  didn't know Iray was free, but would hafta buy new comp.

You can use CPU with it as well. Misty posted a thread with that same comment over at DAZ and the people gave her the correct information.

jeez, Iray needs invidia? once again a renderer I can't use (radeon).  didn't know Iray was free, but would hafta buy new comp.

If you have a 64 bit computer and can run DS, you can render in Iray. Having an NVIDIA card that can hold your scene in its dedicated Video RAM with CUDA cores, doesn't even change the final render, it just makes it render faster. 

great!  would like to try it then.  saw laurie's gem renders and they were excellent.

wait.  ati radeon?  is that good or bad?

my m/b has ati radeon 3000  

yes, radeon = bottom of barrel AFAICT.  few or none of these good renderers specify it.

I have an ati radeaon 4800, and Poser runs like a clockwork.
The second system has a ati radeon hd something in the 5000 series, and it also runs like a charm.
Have a nice day all.

Ps; What are all these DS guys doing in a Poser forum?
They pop-up in every tread?
Do they not have their own thing here?

Ps; What are all these DS guys doing in a Poser forum?
They pop-up in every tread?
Do they not have their own thing here?

Well most of the "DS Guys" are Vendors/Content Creators and have in the past created content or still create content for Poser. I would say most of them have purchased Poser  and have it installed and either have used, or currently still use Poser. DS guys/DS users is more a derisive term that people who prefer Poser over DS use to undermine someone else's opinion by placing a negative label on them. Think of it like this. Poster one: Posts an incorrect fact or slight about Daz Studio in the Poser forum usually as some kind of cheap shot.

Poster two: Replies Well sorry but that's not actually correct, if you look you will find that DS does do that in fact.

Poster one: Why do you always have to defend DS, what are you doing in the Poser forums anyway..,..Why are there so many DS Users here???

So you see labelling people as DS users is a term generally used in a negative context by people who have some issue against Daz Studio or have a superiority complex with Poser.

Most people here are just 3D artists and content creators reading relevant industry news and discussion. Using different tools and techniques to accomplish their goals. Are you suggesting that content creators or people who do also use DS shouldn't be allowed to post here? Do you have issue with people using Daz Studio and Poser?

Plus I'm sure your radeons run fine, it's just that some people want to be able to access faster render speeds through GPU enhancement in a PBR engine.

My understanding of current GPU renderers is that they are limited in materials and functionality (no SSS for example) and cannot render scenes larger than their internal memory. It is also not surprising that most prefer nVidia cards as nVidea either owns the renderers or subsidises them in some way. IRAY is a case in point... isn't it owned by nVidea? I think (and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) that Blender cycles can only do SSS with CPU rendering and IRAY is limited to card memory size.

It isn't that nVidea is better, it's that AMD missed the boat in supporting unbiased renderers. My current card is a Sapphire HD7970. It's 3 years old, can't really buy them in Australia any more (all show as 'end of life' in the store ads). It has 3Gb DDR5, over 2000 shader cores and a memory bus of 384Mb. If I was to upgrade, the current most highly recommended card  of either make is the GTX970. 4Gb (although only 3.5Gb is DDR5), 1664 shader cores (CUDA) and a memory bus of 256Mb. Hardly looks any better, does it? But the internal architecture is better, and nVidia put the dollars into supporting renderers, so is likely to be my next card ($500 dollar range here, so wipes out the R9 200's from AMD)).

The thing is, I don't do animations but I do do "comics", or graphic stories. 80 to 120 images per story. I can't afford to wait a day for each pic so I can use SSS, and if Poser actually implemented the rest of Firefly's capabilities it wouldn't be that bad as a biased render engine. As it is I need to use other programs to do big scenes (like Carrara, because it has instancing and global illumination) or I can use Blender, and when Cycles can fully implement Open CL it won't matter which card you have. Again, last I read over on the Blender Wiki, ATI cards can run cycles better than CUDA cards in some circumstances. It's confusing enough for me over which is better that my card decision is mostly based on gaming than on 3D renders.

Frankly, I don't think the capacity is there yet. I have heard that card engineers are considering something like layered memory of differing DDR's so they can put 12Gb or more into a standard card. I'm watching, but not convinced to jump yet. It's a big financial commitment and a big change in process/workflow.

Poser users on this very forum have been called:

1. just plain too stupid to see the writing on the wall
2. cheap bastards with old computers
3. too dumb to know the difference between a good model and a bad model
4. being run over by the stampede to DS/Genesis

We've heard the lecture multiple times. We've seen and heard. We've done our own comparisons and we stuck with Poser.

Just quickly IRAY does have SSS and instancing. It can render scenes with a larger footprint than your GPU memory but it defaults to CPU to render it.

Find out more about IRAY here. http://www.nvidia.com/object/iray-features.html or of course in the DAZ Forums at Daz where there is plenty of info on it.

I know for a fact that DAZ3D have approached Smith Micro a number of times to help integrate the genesis figures into Poser natively, only to be flatly refused. Why is this not something being seriously looked at by Smith Micro? The fastest way to change from industry leader to yesterday's hero is to lose touch with your market. Why would Smith Micro refuse to help integrate content from the largest content provider in the market? Seems self defeating.

Oh, that one is simple.....because DAZ updates DS constantly.  And when they do, they break their OWN addons, much less 3rd party addons. Just keeping up with DAZ breaking addons would mean Poser would never be updated again as their programmers would be doing nothing but keeping up with broken addons.

I know for a fact that DAZ3D have approached Smith Micro a number of times to help integrate the genesis figures into Poser natively, only to be flatly refused. Why is this not something being seriously looked at by Smith Micro? The fastest way to change from industry leader to yesterday's hero is to lose touch with your market. Why would Smith Micro refuse to help integrate content from the largest content provider in the market? Seems self defeating.

Oh, that one is simple.....because DAZ updates DS constantly.  And when they do, they break their OWN addons, much less 3rd party addons. Just keeping up with DAZ breaking addons would mean Poser would never be updated again as their programmers would be doing nothing but keeping up with broken addons.

I'm talking about content support not addons. They are very different beasts.

You seemed to have missed the most important part of that post too btw.

What are the strengths of Poser, what does it do better then it's competition? Clearly it's not broad content support for whatever reason that is.

What would you say it's strengths are in comparison to it's competitors?

I know for a fact that DAZ3D have approached Smith Micro a number of times to help integrate the genesis figures into Poser natively, only to be flatly refused. Why is this not something being seriously looked at by Smith Micro? The fastest way to change from industry leader to yesterday's hero is to lose touch with your market. Why would Smith Micro refuse to help integrate content from the largest content provider in the market? Seems self defeating.

Oh, that one is simple.....because DAZ updates DS constantly.  And when they do, they break their OWN addons, much less 3rd party addons. Just keeping up with DAZ breaking addons would mean Poser would never be updated again as their programmers would be doing nothing but keeping up with broken addons.

I'm talking about content support not addons. They are very different beasts.

You seemed to have missed the most important part of that post too btw.

What are the strengths of Poser, what does it do better then it's competition? Clearly it's not broad content support for whatever reason that is.

What would you say it's strengths are?

Oh, please........the DSON importer is an addon. As for your other questions, I have no intention of discussing "the competition" on a Poser wishlist thread.

Now that I think about it, how about explaining why DAZ can't make their figures POSER compatible? 

Hivewire makes Poser and DS with every one of their products, so it's clearly easily done.

DSON is only an addon because Smith Micro refused to build in native Genesis support into Poser despite being offered assistance...

DAZ3D created DSON so Poser users were not being left in the dark by Smith Micro's refusal to help keep Poser up to date with modern content

DSON is only an addon because Smith Micro refused to build in native Genesis support into Poser despite being offered assistance...

DAZ3D created DSON so Poser users were not being left in the dark by Smith Micro's refusal to help keep Poser up to date with modern content

Poser users are not left in the dark at all by folks like Hivewire.  Only DAZ.  Hmmmmm, one has to wonder why DAZ thinks it's can dictate anything to Poser or anyone else?

Quote:

"Ps; What are all these DS guys doing in a Poser forum?
They pop-up in every tread?
Do they not have their own thing here?"

AAAAAARGHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a mainly Poser user I say: "Because they may!" They are allowed to. Who will forbid that? YOU???!!!!

It doesn't matter, if I like those DS users' opinion, I could just decide to not listening, but they have the f***ing right to say, what they think.

I pray, that you will never go into politics.

DSON is only an addon because Smith Micro refused to build in native Genesis support into Poser despite being offered assistance...

DAZ3D created DSON so Poser users were not being left in the dark by Smith Micro's refusal to help keep Poser up to date with modern content

Poser users are not left in the dark at all by folks like Hivewire.  Only DAZ.  Hmmmmm, one has to wonder why DAZ thinks it's can dictate anything to Poser or anyone else?

Well maybe because it's the largest content provider in this market segment by a LOOONNNG margin. Rendo, runtimedna and Hivewire altogether still fall short...

DSON is only an addon because Smith Micro refused to build in native Genesis support into Poser despite being offered assistance...

DAZ3D created DSON so Poser users were not being left in the dark by Smith Micro's refusal to help keep Poser up to date with modern content

Poser users are not left in the dark at all by folks like Hivewire.  Only DAZ.  Hmmmmm, one has to wonder why DAZ thinks it's can dictate anything to Poser or anyone else?

Well maybe because it's the largest content provider in this market segment by a LOOONNNG margin. Rendo, runtimedna and Hivewire altogether still fall short...

And SM considered that and said "No thanks."  As did all the other providers who use to be able to use DS content. We Poser users have moved on.  Maybe it's time for DAZ to do the same.

Moved on to where is the question?

As I have also pointed out numerous times making DAZ the enemy is just plain strange and counterproductive to the long term success of Poser. Most pushing this attitude seem more interested in flame wars then discussing the future of the Poser platform from what I have seen. And seem to have nothing but venom for anyone using DS.

I find it hard to believe that most Poser users are happy to see a large section of the content market simply moving out of their reach just for having a preference for Poser. Vendors have been carrying the load for a long time creating multiple versions of products while Smith Micro refused to carry any of the load and keep their platform relevant to evolution in the field.

A lot of vendors are beginning to find the effort is less and less worth the time making a Poser version. It's time Smith Micro came to the party and expanded their platforms compatibility if it's users want to have access to new content in the future.

We know, what we like to have for Poser. If SM doesn't listen and DAZ does and introduce it the next release, then SM will have a problem. Right now DAZ has the better figure and rigging system, which is a core feature. DAZ figures need postwork too, but not as much as SmithMicro figures need.

Right now, I still feel more comfortable with the Poser workflow. Dependency editor and morph brush are the big pro on the SM side, but there need to be made improvements on their figures' shapes and riggings.

If DAZ decided to become more user-friendley, by making features availeble to the public and not just for certified vendors (SUB-D Morphs), then why not moving over to DS?

They finally have a much better render engine, now. I could never deal with 3delight, so one DS-problem is solved.

That's what I allways used to say: It's a competition and in the end I am the laughing winner. They both need to please me, and I will choose both, picking out the best of both worlds.

I really don't understand, why users can be so aggressive about that. Lean back and smile, while two competors fight hard, to present you the better - more delicious cake.

So, IRAY defaults to CPU on large scenes. I have a 64Gb system than often runs at over 25% RAM usage while rendering, so I'm guessing that most of my scenes would be over the 3.5Gb usable memory in a GTX970 (although that doesn't take into account memory savings from instancing)... so is IRAY any faster than Luxrender running on CPU?

BTW, getting back to a previous comment... aren't .duf files proprietary DAZ file structures? Isn't .jpeg a common platform standard? How can you compare accessing the two as the same thing? I know DSON is an interface to allow some access to .duf files for Poser users, just questioning the analogy.

I also just downloaded DS4.8 to check it out on my AMD card... less than 5 minutes before I closed it; a new record!

wait.  ati radeon?  is that good or bad?

my m/b has ati radeon 3000  

Neither. It won't help, but it also won't hurt.