Quick question for anyone advocating Poser fully supports Genesis. People keep mentioning this, but none of you ever addresses it in response, so I'm putting it to you directly, considering Poser's development schedule versus Studio's always in beta  status, how is Poser supposed to handle a complete Genesis re-tool like this if it did fully support Genesis?

Perhaps by collaborating with the largest content provider on the web? The way most platform developers do. Is that really such an abstract thought? Studio isn't always in Beta it has normal development cycles Beta, Release Candidate, Release, well documented and accessible. Maybe there development cycles are somewhat faster than Posers, but there is no reason that compromise couldn't be found for the sake of long term viability of the Poser platform. What will be more expensive for SM in the long term working on their platform to extend support or fast tracking new content development to fill the void? Doing neither is the most riskiest plan.

So, if I understand your meaning, DAZ would wait for Poser to catch up before it released an upgrade like Genesis 3? Even if it took another year before their next release?

So, if I understand your meaning, DAZ would wait for Poser to catch up before it released an upgrade like Genesis 3? Even if it took another year before their next release?

I don't think that was the meaning at all, at least I didn't understand it that way. Daz doesn't have to wait for Poser.

@Clarkie
The bottom line is they're both here for the profit and neither of them has any intention of putting stuff on hold for the other, and neither would I if I were in it for the profit - so can't say I blame them on that one.

It's not about waiting one for the other, it's about collaborating together for common goals. And who knows if Poser developers did have a stronger relationship with Daz then maybe releases could be timed to be delivered on both platform concurrently. I'm not sure how either party would lose out through something like that, as long as things were progressing on mutually agreed schedules. The benefits to both are pretty obvious Poser gets more content - Daz gets content market growth.

But to be honest I think the main issue is that Poser development is ran very light weight and the most optimistic thing to possibly expect is for Poser developers to pick up the phone and say "Hey Daz, we are drilling down features for Poser 2016/17. Are you willing to work with us in giving Poser users native access to your content (again)?" And from there maybe a dialogue could be had about what could be workable for both parties as far as working to a dual platform mutual content system.

Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic, as really, I'm not even sure if A SM cares enough about the situation to consider an action such as this as either viable or workable or B if the Poser market is still of high enough volume to make it worth DAZ3D's time to want to work with SM to this end. Especially after the Genesis 1 and 2 DSON importers debacle.

Many people love to prod Poser and Daz3d into being enemies. But it doesn't necessarily have to be the case. At the end day the users will be the ones to lose out from all out conflict as already is becoming somewhat apparent with the recent changes in the industry.

Plus there is a good chance like with most fights that one party may be face down in the gutter, after the dust settles. Which would be a blow to the industry in general.

I think it would still be in Daz's interest to cooperate, but they could choose not to. My impression is that it would now be easier for Smith Micro, I could be wrong.  

GAH Stoopid Forum; I just deleted my post... :(

"DAZ vowed years ago to be the "Poser killer," even said so publicly in an interview.  That is their goal."

I can't get over the irony of that statement because of a post at a different forum by a former owner. If it was years ago then it was different management all together and you can't attribute the statement to the current management that implemented genesis and the new weight mapping.

Indeed.  DAZ is now a small piece of a $74 Billion corporation.  The question for their current management is; does it increase the value of DAZ more to increase sales by continuing to support Poser compatible, at some development expense, or not support Poser and eventually charge for the Pro/Advanced versions of Studio, as was originally envisaged...

Or option, three expand into the larger market (As with G3 DQ weight maps) and continue to drive revenue by offering a free platform and relying on the sale of content. There are some obvious advantages of giving DS away for free you do not seem to be seeing. DA has a whole bunch of powerful development tools included for free. Putting these in the hands of users mean more content will be developed for DS which in turn can lead to increased revenue for DAZ3D when those users partner with DS(the largest market) to sell their content. Giving the platform away for free also means costs are consolidated as the user base is for the most part is consistently on the same version of the platform. Poser suffers from a fragmented user base simply because the cost of chasing upgrades to the platform creates a lag effect. In its most basic application giving it away means more user -> means more customer buying content.

One  more time; a few points:
Your third choice does not exclude the two that I have posited; indeed, they have already made half of that choice by going to a standard rigging scheme.  But, people who are going to use Genesis 3+ in high end apps are  going to continue using those apps.

The management issue is that they are giving away a Pro version whose comparable competitor has a street price of over $200; that is a lot of money to be leaving on the table; over $1 million revenue per 5000 copies, at negligible cost.  Currently their HD creation tools are too valuable to give away to anyone else besides their PA's; I'd bet they would be included in a paid Pro version.     (Digression; can one convert a figure to a DQ skinned figure in the current Pro version?  I can't find an option anywhere) 

Genesis 1's release did precede a compatible version of Poser ; it wasn't until Poser 9 SR2 that conformers would work with animated joint centers.  As it was, Poser 9 was released early (remember the reservation system) to give a sales bump before Q3 2011 closed.  This is all about business, remember. :)  Since there is a big sale on PP2014 on right now, I expect there will be a new Poser version soon, and not DAZ Soon, either.

As Nanette noted Genesis 3 is very interesting.  The parts that do work when it is imported into Poser work very fast and very well, and  should fully work if Poser adds DQ skinning.  As I noted above, JSON support has been added to Anime Studio, so it's possible it could be within Poser as well....

Yeah, listen, the new Vicky has an anus!!!
This could change everything!!!

OMG!!! :lol: When is Roxie going to get one?

@Razor
The problem isn't having them work together on some things, that would be great.  If they were both to sit down and decide on an open figure format that neither of them owned the rights to, something that would work well in both systems, that would be ideal - I agree - I even mentioned that along time ago when possibly the previous Genesis arrived.  The problem though, is that they're competitors, so doing such things isn't going to be viable for them.  The figure is something DAZ are good at, it's their 'thing' so I doubt they'd ever submit to a 100% cross-program compatible figure.  DAZ aren't worried in the figure department so they have no reason to do so.  For me personally, both DS and Poser have a major Pro and Con:

DS - Main Pro = Genesis
Poser - Main Pro = Interface

DS - Main Con = Interface
Poser - Main Con = Lack of a Genesis equivalent (and Roxie is detemined she never wants the ability to grow a cock like a Genesis Vickie can).

And like I said, while all this goes on, MakeHuman and Blender are quietly succeeding in blowing them both out of the water.  I mean take iRay for example, I just canlt get excited about that because I already have a far better renderer by using Blender Cycles.  I hate waiting for stuff, I hate lag, I hate chippy performance it drives me nuts.  So while everyone is drooling over iRay for how good it looks, it's actually got two major flaws.  one is it;s licence restrictions for commercial work, and the other is that it; not interactive in the way the Blender Cycles renderer is.

In use, there's abig difference between something that is fast, and something that is both fast and interactive.  If I rotate the camera in DS while having iRay riunning, yes, I get a nice render and yes, it's fast.  But it's horrible in use because when I rotate the camera or edit a material, the scene disappears and we have to wait for it to catch up, and then it displays a render.  Blender Cycles is in a different class altogether, it's like Octane cause when you rotate the camera in Blender Cycles, the render never disappears, it constantly renders even as you rotate the camera or tweak the material nodes or whatever.

THAT is interactivity, and THAT is what make things productive - DS and iRay doesn't give that, not even close.

It; exactly the same sensation when animating with iclone, there is no waiting to see the result of an anuimation move, it; ther in realtime, and therefore, it's productive and that is what attracts people to iClone.  This is one of the reasons i keep saying that DAZ is not the biggest commercial threat to Poser, iClone is.  iClone has the ability to owrk in realtime both with animation and stills.  You now also have the ability to send over to an external renderer.  And soon, it's going to have live PBR materials in the viewport.

People OVER-estimate the attraction of super-accurate raytraces over a "realtime" engine, and people UNDER estimate the attraction of having a realtime system that is productive enough to actually do what you intended to do.  People don't animate in Poser because doing so is a nightmare, whereas ex-Poser and DS users have been flocking over to iClone because animation in a realtime environment cannot be beaten.

Nerd mentioned animation - Great!
Nerd did not mention Realtime - Fail!

I'm not sure how long it's going to take before it dawns on these developers, but no matter whether it's rendering, dynamics, simulations, whatever - PEOPLE WANT IT FAST BEACUSE IT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT IT IS POSSIBLE WITH TODAYS HARDAWARE - and people will ultimately go for the product that allows them to be most productive.  If iClone's upcoming PBR turns out good enough, I'll buy it even though I use Blender.

Note though, I said I'll buy iClone - as in not Poser, and not DS.

Those programs are investing in things that are NOT realtime, and I'm not interested in doing what we wre doing fifteen years ago (waiting).  That is not the way forward and all it will mean is that they lag behind even further.  I've been using 3D for nearly fifteen years now and I still haven't made anything any good with it!  Nothing!  And it's not me, it's not that I'm incapable.  And I've spent a fortune but still have nothing!  Well screw that, I've had enough of "lagging behind" just because the companies that make this stuff are more concerned with getting one over on each other than actually making a functioning product that's "fit for purpose".  I want a PRODUCTIVE system and that's what I'll go for, no matter who makes it, no matter what it's called, and no matter whather it is paid or free - I just want something that does what I want the damn thing to do, without bugs, without compatibility crap, and at this precise moment in time, NONE of the commercial products do that.  The closest commercial program to getting it right, is iClone, not Poser, and not DS, and if they iClone fails on launching the PBR to the expected standard, I'll be giving that the big finger to iClone as well.

The days of me paying out cash (that would be better spent elsewhere) to support their games, are over.  Both SM and DAZ can play at this crap until they're blue in the fucking face, because fact is, they're both getting crushed big-time by the commercal and free competition out there.  No one really knows anything for sure, but one thing I can guarantee is that if I ever do purchase another commercial 3D product, IT WILL do exactly what I want it to do, because if it doesn't, I won't be parting with cash for it in the first place.  Poser is out of the question even if they added every feature I ever wanted (due the the liberty taking activations crap).  And DS isn't even on my list of possibilities in the first place due to there being nothing about it that's attractive to me - and like I said, I cannot get excited over iRay for the two reasons I pointed out earlier in this post.

Bloody hell, I must try harder to shorten these epic-length rants!

Yeah, listen, the new Vicky has an anus!!!
This could change everything!!!

OMG!!! :lol: When is Roxie going to get one?

Technically, she already has one.

I still can't quite get your logic here. Why would a company who sells petrol/ gas care what kind of car you put it in? Oh except for the total world domination theory that some seem to be able to detect from daz. Albeit with nothing but intuition.

Back when they introduced the Kindle, Amazon, to absolutely no one's shock, except possibly to those who have a hard time understanding why anyone would do it, sold ebooks in the proprietary AZW format...which was only available on the Kindle. In order to read Amazon's content on an ebook reader, you needed to do so on a specific device, which coincidentally enough, was only produced for Amazon.
So tell me, why do you think that Amazon, which was selling books (aka, the gas) tried to make it so that it could only be accessed on one particular reader (aka, the car)? According to your understanding, this sort of thing is entirely incomprehensible.

The reason why, of course, was that Amazon was in a position to be able to try and pull that off. Their brand name and online presence immediately gave them a huge leg up when they started selling ebooks, which weren't a huge market at the time, and so the Kindle was an attempt to look people into Amazon by hardware and content. If you wanted to buy an ebook from Amazon, you needed a Kindle. If they could sell enough Kindles to dominate the market, then people when people thought about buying an ebook reader their first thoughts would turn to a Kindle, and if they bought a Kindle, they'd be pretty much locked into Amazon and Amazon's format and Amazon's digital rights management.

@Nerd
As part of the "improvements" for the next release, you might want to get SM to quit taking liberties with people, like Poser just did with me by 'Calling Home' when I specifically told it not to. When I switch-off checking for updates on starup, it means exactly that, it doesn't mean do what you like regradless like it did just minutes ago by telling me an update is available for Poser - even with the option switched-off.

NO MEANS NO - the perils of proprietory, eh?

It's a simple fix, so hurry-up with the SR, cause if it happens again, SM will be reported for underhand practices, and that's assuming I don't lose my temper enough to go ahead with it this time.  I really have had enough of you corporate fucks to last me ten lifetimes!

@Rod
Sorry, loaded-up Poser for the first time in ages to show you Roxie's anal polys, but got destracted by a message from an entirely different league of anus!

(Digression; can one convert a figure to a DQ skinned figure in the current Pro version?  I can't find an option anywhere) 

Try the Binding tab of the Tool Settings pane with the Node Weight Brush tool active. I don't know what it will do for converting a figure that already has weight maps with another binding, but it will certainly let you set the binding type.

So while everyone is drooling over iRay for how good it looks, it's actually got two major flaws.  one is it;s licence restrictions for commercial work,...

I'm not sure what you mean here - the license allows the commercial use of renders made with Iray.

@Richard
I read that it's free for use in DS, but if you want to use the outrput commercially, then you still have to pay for an iRay licence.  I'm pretty sure it was iRay, I think it was in that massive thread on DAZ where I read it when they first released it.  If not, I must be thinking of something else, but I can't think what!

Anyway, that's good to hear, thanks for the heads-up :-)

@Richard
I read that it's free for use in DS, but if you want to use the outrput commercially, then you still have to pay for an iRay licence.  I'm pretty sure it was iRay, I think it was in that massive thread on DAZ where I read it when they first released it.  If not, I must be thinking of something else, but I can't think what!

Anyway, that's good to hear, thanks for the heads-up :-)

I beleive you are thinking of the free version of Pixar RenderMan...

@Nerd
As part of the "improvements" for the next release, you might want to get SM to quit taking liberties with people, like Poser just did with me by 'Calling Home' when I specifically told it not to. When I switch-off checking for updates on starup, it means exactly that, it doesn't mean do what you like regradless like it did just minutes ago by telling me an update is available for Poser - even with the option switched-off.

NO MEANS NO - the perils of proprietory, eh?

It's a simple fix, so hurry-up with the SR, cause if it happens again, SM will be reported for underhand practices, and that's assuming I don't lose my temper enough to go ahead with it this time.  I really have had enough of you corporate fucks to last me ten lifetimes!

My Poser never checks for updates. And seriously Pumeco, was that last line really necessary?

DSON is a much better solution than having two separate WM Versions of Genesis. Ask yourself this, how many people would bother making content twice using different formats? With DSON you only had to do it once and change materials. Creating content for two different WM systems was not a viable solution. Half the content creators would have gladly showed the middle finger and you would end up with content that is Daz only or this is Poser only. DSON gave us the ability to support both platforms with ease. All we needed was SM to help DSON out but they didn't. So ultimately, DSON got a bad rep in Poser due to its performance, which led to little people using it, which led to content creators ultimately dropping DSON support because of the low Poser adoption which didn't generate revenue for the added effort. So now, here we are. Genesis 3 being Daz only.

Perhaps you are right about content creators, but in anyway it is a better solution for a native Poser user, use DSON is not a solution for the final user at all.
About SM to help DSON, wait, why Poser have to help DSON, it is the creator of the figure the one that have to give support to the figure inside a software, not the software creator.

About G3 is Daz only, is a decision from Daz3d, good or bad, but their decision, and it was their decison in G1 too, because the DSON patch came later.

Again, and I don't want to be repetitive, Daz3d create Genesis for and only for  their own software DS, that could be great, but then, when you see your buyers asking for a Poser  version, nobody, Daz3d or the buyers cannot ask to SM to find a solution to run Genesis in Poser, ask it to Daz3d.

And add again, the Poser world doesn't begins or ends in Genesis , there are many figures in the market for Poser that are great figures, some of them from Daz3d.

@Rod
Cheers, yup, that must be it then, I knew it was something to do with a renderer for DS.

@Clarkie
Oh absolutely, Clarkie, this is exactly the sort of corporate shit Stallman warns about in that video posted in the other thread, and like I said, people really should listen to him.  This stuff is usually intentional for one reason or another, and it's not rocket science to check the code and correct operation of a toggle switch for bugs before release.

I've not reported it ... this time.

@Nerd
As part of the "improvements" for the next release, you might want to get SM to quit taking liberties with people, like Poser just did with me by 'Calling Home' when I specifically told it not to. When I switch-off checking for updates on starup, it means exactly that, it doesn't mean do what you like regradless like it did just minutes ago by telling me an update is available for Poser - even with the option switched-off.

NO MEANS NO - the perils of proprietory, eh?

It's a simple fix, so hurry-up with the SR, cause if it happens again, SM will be reported for underhand practices, and that's assuming I don't lose my temper enough to go ahead with it this time.  I really have had enough of you corporate fucks to last me ten lifetimes!

My Poser never checks for updates. And seriously Pumeco, was that last line really necessary?

Same here, I turn updates off with a simple checkbox.

DSON is a much better solution than having two separate WM Versions of Genesis. Ask yourself this, how many people would bother making content twice using different formats? With DSON you only had to do it once and change materials. Creating content for two different WM systems was not a viable solution. Half the content creators would have gladly showed the middle finger and you would end up with content that is Daz only or this is Poser only. DSON gave us the ability to support both platforms with ease. All we needed was SM to help DSON out but they didn't. So ultimately, DSON got a bad rep in Poser due to its performance, which led to little people using it, which led to content creators ultimately dropping DSON support because of the low Poser adoption which didn't generate revenue for the added effort. So now, here we are. Genesis 3 being Daz only.

Perhaps you are right about content creators, but in anyway it is a better solution for a native Poser user, use DSON is not a solution for the final user at all.
About SM to help DSON, wait, why Poser have to help DSON, it is the creator of the figure the one that have to give support to the figure inside a software, not the software creator.

About G3 is Daz only, is a decision from Daz3d, good or bad, but their decision, and it was their decison in G1 too, because the DSON patch came later.

Again, and I don't want to be repetitive, Daz3d create Genesis for and only for  their own software DS, that could be great, but then, when you see your buyers asking for a Poser  version, nobody, Daz3d or the buyers cannot ask to SM to find a solution to run Genesis in Poser, ask it to Daz3d.

And add again, the Poser world doesn't begins or ends in Genesis , there are many figures in the market for Poser that are great figures, some of them from Daz3d.

I have to agree with you completely, adh3d. I never saw the DAZGang beating up on Maya/Autodesk, or any of the other bigs.  Heck, they never even beat up on Blender.

Just Poser.  Their wrath is reserved for SmithMicro only.

It always struck me as nothing short of odd that the DAZGang believe that SM's sole purpose is to serve DAZ and DAZ content.  At their bidding and insistence, no less.

Glitterati Wrote:
"Same here, I turn updates off with a simple checkbox."

Same here, ignoramous, but as it still does whatever the fuck it likes, I thought I'd point it out.
Keep out of debates you're guaranteed to lose.

@ WandW

"Your third choice does not exclude the two that I have posited; indeed, they have already made half of that choice by going to a standard rigging scheme.  But, people who are going to use Genesis 3+ in high end apps are  going to continue using those apps."

The point isn't to get the people that use high end apps to use DS it's to make them be able to access Daz3D content. A lot of these subject lines seem to always lead back to a rather paranoid Daz want me to stop using Poser, maybe Poser is becoming less and less relevant on DAZ's radar....

"The management issue is that they are giving away a Pro version whose comparable competitor has a street price of over $200; that is a lot of money to be leaving on the table; over $1 million revenue per 5000 copies, at negligible cost. "

Value is relative. Most game consoles are worth a lot more than they sell them for. Poser is locked into this kind of revenue model because of it's lack of content. If 1,000,000 people download a free DS and potentially purchase $100 worth of content in a year that equals $100,000,000 revenue. Which business model looks stronger, which model is the wider industry transitioning to? Again why would Daz revert back to an older business model that is seen to be failing across the broader market in general???

@ Pumeco

As far as Vicky's new anus goes, well like opinions everyone has one...

@ Keith

"So tell me, why do you think that Amazon, which was selling books (aka, the gas) tried to make it so that it could only be accessed on one particular reader (aka, the car)? According to your understanding, this sort of thing is entirely incomprehensible."

Well one of the main reason Amazon chose to go propriety is that one it hits the copyright trade squarely in the face and secondly proprietary formats are built to work in partnership with a device for a solid platform, thirdly there are a number direct competitors with their own totally separate proprietary Ebooks. But the point is you're speculating I can say that Poser are going to raise the price for their next version to over $1000 and drop the upgrade path because of some awesome evolutionary new features!!!, after all plenty of other software companies sell their software for that much and the next version is bound to have some new features. While this is entirely possible, it is highly unlikely and at worse your statement is incredibly flammatory, as is my example. So unless you have some actual evidence this is going to happen, what is the point of raising the speculation may I ask?

@ ADHD

"Again, and I don't want to be repetitive, Daz3d create Genesis for and only for  their own software DS, that could be great, but then, when you see your buyers asking for a Poser  version, nobody, Daz3d or the buyers cannot ask to SM to find a solution to run Genesis in Poser, ask it to Daz3d."

Well I don't see much point in asking Daz3D as they have been trying to work with SM for years to get there modern figures into SM only to be snubbed. So I guess the Poserverse will just need to be satisfied with the "many figures in the market for Poser that are great figures" and the props and scenes that do include Poser versions. I have heard that DSON works for Genesis 2, well kinda.;) Daz3D are CHOOSING to drop Poser support, and that doesn't concern you about the future viability of Poser. If that's the case here is a large sand pit for you to enjoy.

 Poser are going to raise the price for their next version to over $1000 and drop the upgrade path because of some awesome evolutionary new features!!!, after all plenty of other software companies sell their software for that much and the next version is bound to have some new features. 

@ Keith and other speculators at what "Daz will do in the future"

Then we can remove that inflammatory statement from context just to add a bit more fuel to the rumour mill. Maybe the suggestion is true?

@ Pumeco

So DS's main con is it's UI yet Blender and Make Human are the future? I seem to recall a few people have some issues with Blender's own UI. Don't get me wrong I'm not knocking Blender, I use it most days.

 Poser are going to raise the price for their next version to over $1000 and drop the upgrade path because of some awesome evolutionary new features!!!, after all plenty of other software companies sell their software for that much and the next version is bound to have some new features. 

@ Keith and other speculators at what "Daz will do in the future"

Then we can remove that inflammatory statement from context just to add a bit more fuel to the rumour mill. Maybe the suggestion is true?

sigh You said you couldn't understand why a company would do that. I gave an example where a company did do that, and ultimately failed. It doesn't matter that Amazon sells at least some of their ebooks without DCM and Kindles can read other formats now, it's what their initial plan was. Sony tried it coming from the other direction, trying to use their reputation as an electronics manufacturer to start their own ebook store with sold in a propriety format as well that was, in the end, given up on and that business sold.

For years Studio Pro being free was a "temporary" sale thing, which gave every reason to believe that if they could get Poser out, they could return to making money by selling it. The fact that it didn't happen doesn't negate the fact that they tried. The fact that Genesis 3 moves to a more standard system for its rigging and mapping is perhaps a hint that DAZ has given up on that potential business model, which has been dragging along since 2012 when DS went free after it was clear Genesis alone wasn't pulling people to it enough to pay for it, and has stayed with the razor model (sell the razor cheap or even give it away, make people keep paying for the blades).

There's nothing actually that novel about G3: that style of rigging with the multiple bones has been in use in animation for ages--and, in fact, people created models like it for use in Poser years ago--dual quaternion skinning was developed in 2008, and UDIM mapping was created in 2002.[1] What is noteworthy is that DAZ has given up trying to use a purely proprietary technology in the new model and has gone to using widely-accepted industry standards. Now the ball is actually in Smith-Micro's court where it wasn't before because now they aren't forced into being tied into another company's technology that no one else was using.

1. I am somewhat amused by their marketing which is trying to sell all this as brand new, including the funny bit about Victoria 7 being "all quads and no tris!"...yeah okay. You mean like has been good modelling practice for years and years now? Including on already-available 3D figures?

 Poser are going to raise the price for their next version to over $1000 and drop the upgrade path because of some awesome evolutionary new features!!!, after all plenty of other software companies sell their software for that much and the next version is bound to have some new features. 

@ Keith and other speculators at what "Daz will do in the future"

Then we can remove that inflammatory statement from context just to add a bit more fuel to the rumour mill. Maybe the suggestion is true?

sigh You said you couldn't understand why a company would do that. I gave an example where a company did do that, and ultimately failed. It doesn't matter that Amazon sells at least some of their ebooks without DCM and Kindles can read other formats now, it's what their initial plan was. Sony tried it coming from the other direction, trying to use their reputation as an electronics manufacturer to start their own ebook store with sold in a propriety format as well that was, in the end, given up on and that business sold.

For years Studio Pro being free was a "temporary" sale thing, which gave every reason to believe that if they could get Poser out, they could return to making money by selling it. The fact that it didn't happen doesn't negate the fact that they tried. The fact that Genesis 3 moves to a more standard system for its rigging and mapping is perhaps a hint that DAZ has given up on that potential business model, which has been dragging along since 2012 when DS went free after it was clear Genesis alone wasn't pulling people to it enough to pay for it, and has stayed with the razor model (sell the razor cheap or even give it away, make people keep paying for the blades).

There's nothing actually that novel about G3: that style of rigging with the multiple bones has been in use in animation for ages--and, in fact, people created models like it for use in Poser years ago--dual quaternion skinning was developed in 2008, and UDIM mapping was created in 2002.[1] What is noteworthy is that DAZ has given up trying to use a purely proprietary technology in the new model and has gone to using widely-accepted industry standards. Now the ball is actually in Smith-Micro's court where it wasn't before because now they aren't forced into being tied into another company's technology that no one else was using.

1. I am somewhat amused by their marketing which is trying to sell all this as brand new, including the funny bit about Victoria 7 being "all quads and no tris!"...yeah okay. You mean like has been good modelling practice for years and years now? Including on already-available 3D figures?

Like you, I find the marketing language in use pretty amazing.  Here we sit, just a few years after all the marketing hype about the "DAZ game changer" that was Genesis!  Seems that brainwashing only worked on their existing customers, whose reaction to Genesis 3 is actually, "what?  you want me to buy everything AGAIN?" At some point, perhaps the DAZ customer base will realize the bandwagon they've been on all this time.

Perhaps that's why DAZ is going after the "new" market they're targeting now - the actual OLD market.  Because their customers have finally figured out that buying Morphing Fantasy Dress version 666 really isn't smart, nor game changing, after all.

:-)

Guys, this thread is going way off topic. Please review the new forum rules and abide. Software wars only leads to digital yell fests that never get resolved and leaves some members uncomfortable. Please take this argument elsewhere.

Boni

@ Keith  - Difference is how many of those other already available industry figure models has as any additional content assets to their name? Most of them are stand alone offerings. Imagine small studios who now have access to a figure that can do more than one thing, has a huge content library available, and is cheaper than a $400 single figure you find on sites like Turbosquid. If you cannot see the appeal, well then, there is no point explaining. What their marketing is selling is an industry standard figure, with loads of content support. Show me any other already available 3D figure in the pro sector that offers the same thing within a decent price range. Daz isn't targeting Pixar or Disney, but the small studios who have the skills, but don't have the time and resources to create content from scratch. Chances are they will have the same approach towards the gaming sector. Targeting those who need a figure that can do more than what is on offer.

Perhaps that's why DAZ is going after the "new" market they're targeting now - the actual OLD market.  Because their customers have finally figured out that buying Morphing Fantasy Dress version 666 really isn't smart, nor game changing, after all.Really? Then why has my Genesis 3 product already beaten the Genesis 2 version in sales? I mean it's the same product. Surely that can't be possible? If you know nothing, I suggest you be quiet. You do not sell, you just speculate regarding how things work. What we have is actual sale data. Oh and to add, people buy the same content for V4 over and over. How many bikinis are there now? How many breast products? Your argument has no basis. You are projecting your shopping habbits. People will buy what they want, even if they have 100 of the same type of content. We all know you dislike Daz, and frankly, it comes across quite obviously in your arguments. Either that, or you are completely blind as to how this market works.

Sorry Boni I did not see your post. However I am not removing my responses as I feel they are valid to some comments made.

Noted, but please move this discussion to a more appropriate forum, per forum rules. This is just to make the forum friendlier for all. No criticism aimed at you .

Boni

I said my bit. I won't be pursuing the issue.

I apologize we cross posted ... Thank you for you cooperation. It is appreciated very much.

Boni

Lol ye I wanted to edit my post but unfortunately there is a time limit on these things:(

Guys, this thread is going way off topic. Please review the new forum rules and abide. Software wars only leads to digital yell fests that never get resolved and leaves some members uncomfortable. Please take this argument elsewhere.

Boni

Great news! Have a look at the start of this thread and see how long until the "topic" changed to attacking and talking about DS/Daz3D by Poser users. 

So with these changes I can rest assured that this will mean no more using the Poser forums as a stage to throw stones at DS and Daz3D? 

If the stones are not thrown or pulled up by the admins then there would be no need for DS users to step in to counter them. Threads would stay more on topic.

If some members keep making swipes at DS whenever they can then things will go on as per usual despite the rules.

I hope Boni doesn't mind, it's certainly not intended to flame, but I just wanted to get my reply in to Razor and Zev :

@Razor
It's easy to see the Blender interface as hard or confusing, but you should bear in mind how powerful it is.  And I'm certainly not knocking DS, I think it's an awesome package, but blimey, if I had just come across the DS interface for the first time, that would surely be more overwhelming than Blender!  There's no denying that Poser is best when it comes to general interface design, in fact I think it's the only thing it has going for it at the moment, because the hair, cloth, and animation system are all laughable relic-tech at best.  I only hope for the programs sake, that Nerd's animation improvements aren't some new presets for that antique Walk Designer!

And don't worry, that was actually wrote in a friendly manner.

But I'll tell you how bad it is, cause I went into the field the other day playing with the detector.  Had it switched to 'Relic' mode and got an almighty bleep.  Thought I'd struck gold and had visions of getting my Luxury Catamaran sooner than I'd envisaged.  But no, turns out some clown had buried a copy of Poser 10 in an act of fury, and the Relic detection mode was triggered due to picking-up on Poser's Walk Designer etc.

Damn thing!

@Zev
If DS is aimed at small studios with the skills (and you're probably right), something is wrong because I don't see DS (or Poser) getting used much in a commercial environment.  For stills, yes, ok I suppose it's all over the place in a commercial sense, but neither of them are what I'd call a 'solution' for a small studio.  That said, I admire DAZ's efforts in that department more than SM's, mainly due to it having a half-way usable animation system, the puppeteering and aniMate/aniBlock system it has.  I doubt it would be wise to rely on DS or Poser as a software studio souition for a large-scale production though, one that included any form of animation.  I see DAZ and Poser figures in use here and there, but when they're animated, it tends to be very small projects.

Anyway, this wasn't a question due to the OT thing, just something to make you think over, cause as I said to Razor, I'm certainly not knocking DS, but I think people give it credit for something it doesn't generally do (even if it can do it).  DS is a dedicated figure tool yet it deosn't even have a way to clothify custom clothe meshes (unless something has been released since I last looked into it).  If they spent as much time dealing with obvious shortcomings as that, as they do messing around with the content manager, the program would be a lot better off for it (and so would the users).

One very unfortunate thing is that I read G3 is heavy on polys, and what a shame, cause if they'd taken the other route of making it even leaner, they would effectively be able to compete with iClone if they caught up on the animation features (which for DS, shouldn't be too difficult because the system is already half-way decent).  But yup, I reckon DAZ shold give the content manager crap a rest, and make, say, a clothes design system for it that works like Marvelous designer does.  Something like that built into either DS or Poser would have people falling over themselves to get at it - especially as Marvelous Designer pricing is so high.

I mean how hard can it be to create a pattern-based simulator like that!
Anyway, no replies please, like I said, it's just something for you both to think over.

One very unfortunate thing is that I read G3 is heavy on polys, and what a shame, cause if they'd taken the other route of making it even leaner, they would effectively be able to compete with iClone if they caught up on the animation features (which for DS, shouldn't be too difficult because the system is already half-way decent).

A (new) pair of glasses is in order. Exactly 17000 quads, no tris.

Fair enough, but then why was someone banging-on about it having an increased polycount?
Bear in mind I've not even visited the product page for Genesis 3, that's how much I know about it!

but blimey, if I had just come across the DS interface for the first time, that would surely be more overwhelming than Blender!

This is true, and coming from Poser I had the same issue. However in Studio you can change layouts, and the one that made me feel more at home was setting the layout to City Limits. The default one is bleh.

Really? Blender might be powerful, but to me it is the most confusing interface I know. With every release it became easier, I know, but I'm still completley unable to do anything there. It is completley cryptic to me. I've just started to make my first steps in zBrush, and even the zBrush interface makes more sense to me than Blender's. The worst about Blender is that sticky left mouse button thing. you click on an object in your workspace and try to move it, but with the release of the mouse button, that object still sticks to your mouse movements. I've even caught myself shaking the mouse to get rid of it. I hate that. That is a nogo. Don't be sticky a my mouse.

This interface is worth a Sheldon Cooper award.

Don't get me wrong, a powerful great piece of software, but not for a Timberwolf or a Masterstroke. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWacQrEcMHk

"eventually charge for the Pro/Advanced versions of Studio, as was originally envisaged..."

They tried that for a little while and it was counter productive. I seriously doubt they will ever go back to charging for the product when they generate far more on content sales. Any time you have an "entrance fee" you run the risk of limiting your market. Additionally, the vast majority of users are on the same page version wise and that makes the program easier to support.

I was one of the folk that paid for Studio, and the Pro rigging tools, and was screwed when DAZ gave everything away for free within 15 hours of my purchase; you hit the nail on the head. 15 hours and a big FU when asking for a refund. DAZ has not received a penny from me since. There is no reason to think a future "upgrade" to the permanent Studio beta will not start to cost you again when Genesis 4 becomes available just because the current version is free. The "entrance fee" cost DAZ many hundreds of my dollars when it was removed. Giving the program away "free for a limited time" was the excuse provided for no refund. New DAZ users feel Poser users just don't get the advantages of a free program. Old Poser users like me have long memories. Once bitten twice shy.

Really? Then why has my Genesis 3 product already beaten the Genesis 2 version in sales? I mean it's the same product. Surely that can't be possible?

Without knowing what exactly your sales figures are--and I see this sort of thing a lot all over the place, including from software companies bragging about their sales or whatever--a statement such as that can range from meaningless to actually useless if you're trying to use it to prove a point. If you sold, to use an extreme example, 1 copy of one dress, and then 2 copies of another dress, you can claim a 100% increase in sales for the second item, which would be entirely and completely accurate but that's still only 2 total sales. Twice a small amount is still a small amount. While I doubt you're trying to mislead anyone and that what you said is entirely true in not merely a technical sense, seeing that sort of statement immediately raises flags, deserved or not, among anyone who knows basic stats and how marketing works. So I really wouldn't recommend using it as some kind of statement that absolutely closes the case because, well, it doesn't. Relative comparisons are only useful if they can be related to an absolute measure. Which is why when I see things like "improved rendering speeds!" or whatever I get annoyed. What sold me on the new version of Reality, for instance, wasn't meaningless statements about how it's X times faster (faster doing what? A simple scene with a simple shape in a simple room or a scene with a lot of reflection/refraction/raytracing complicated shaders), it was the video so I could see the scene that was being rendered and the difference in render times and how it was set up, and so on. It gave me something I could actually evaluate.

but blimey, if I had just come across the DS interface for the first time, that would surely be more overwhelming than Blender!

This is true, and coming from Poser I had the same issue. However in Studio you can change layouts, and the one that made me feel more at home was setting the layout to City Limits. The default one is bleh.

Really? The default one was the only one I could halfway navigate. And STILL haven't figure out how to work the library yet.

Gee, I liked this thread better when folks were talking about audio recordings... :(

@Zev
Just in case you're not aware of it, you can customise the Blender and Poser interfaces also.

@Rod
Me too!

Anyway, as this is a Poser thread, why don't SM tell us what's new in the update rather than just tell us there is one, and expect us to download it?

How come there's no announcement here, this is the largest Poser forum after all, isn't it?
What got fixed and what got added, anyone have a list?

 Anyway, as this is a Poser thread, why don't SM tell us what's new in the update rather than just tell us there is one, and expect us to download it?

How come there's no announcement here, this is the largest Poser forum after all, isn't it?
What got fixed and what got added, anyone have a list?

How many times do I have to mention SM's NDA which all employees sign?

Ok guys, you got out of control again. Might I suggest, since this discussion is so important to you that you find an appropriate forum to continue and provide a link for those wanting to follow. This is again, way off topic. I am avoiding locking this thread until you do this ... if you don't, I may have to shut it down any way. This is your last warning.

Boni