Okay, I just wanted people to know that I posted something over at the PFO in an effort to clearify a statement that was made on the PFO regarding our forum. In an effort to let everyone know exactly what I said, so that there wont be any confusion or a bunch of mudslinging, I am posting it here as well. I wish only to be fair to the members here and keep you in the loop, after all, this is your forum too!! -------The Post------------------- I just would like to clarify a comment made earlier ( htp://www.poserforum.net/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000448.html) by Grey on 11/10 in the Bodybuilder Noir 2 where you stated Grey "As for the other forum, it allows Pornography. We don't, and never will." We at Renderosity don't censor other people's artwork or incorporate a rating for people. We are building a section that will keep children safe. This include images that contain nudity or violence. We leave it up to the community to act responsibly, which has worked so far. We do not view images of nudes (male or female) as pornography. We support art work, not pornography. Yes, there is artwork that can arouse sexual desire. There are such works by VanGogue that manage to arouse me and these do not depict nudes or even people in them. My feeling is this, the PFO runs a family orienated forum, with that goal in mind. Whereas, ours is an Art Forum much like a musuem that caters to the artists. Both have their respectible places. Grey, my only hope that you didn't try to slander what we are doing on our forum. It is our goal to work together to provide service to everyone instead of finger pointing. Jack

the amusing thing of it is.... your Post was NOT on the PoserForumOnline. What did they do, Ban your posts??? Though you may find it under A Few Words From A Friend posted by moi ed

Thanks Ed, Hmmm... your right, seems I have been banned from their site. I don't understand it. Oh well, let them. Let's just try not to become like that ourselves, nor give them any reason to hate us. I have long since learned what goes around does indeed come around. Our goal is to be a benefit to the members here, not push our opinions. But thanks for posting it over there for me, I owe you one! Jack

anytime!! that's the name of the game to aid and support! regardless of conflicting views ed

ed? You misspelled "view" when you visited my community. PAN~

No big deal. I was banned from thier site the day after they opened it.

I just took a look at the threads in question... You have to understand Grey, he runs alot of right-wing political forums as well as the PFO. RW's are known for their vast pornography collections so you have to assume they know what they're talking about when it come to that subject ;-) On a more serious note...they probably just changed your password for you and neglected to inform you of it. Standard PFO operating procedure. Just hit that "Lost password" button and have the new one mailed to you. If that doesn't work, sign up again. According to Willow's post you haven't been "Banned". -Jeff H.

Yep, according to Willow, you haven't been banned Jack, and your thread hasn't been deleted. Odd, then, that I can't find your original thread :) Paul

Jack, Just as a FYI, you havent been banned from the forum, and according to the Admin scripts you had only made one post there and that was in response to one of Greys threads.. That thread was deleted by him when it was no longer necessary to have... Not sure what thread that you are referring to above.. Thanks Darrin

Can I say something? I really don't wish to step on any of my "new" friends toes by this comment so please understand I'm a person with my OWN opinions when it comes to this matter....this is never a personal assault on ANYONE here OR THERE (for the record): Can we just allow these things to slide? IT would seem to me that from the moment the Hatfields and the McCoys started feuding that there has been nothing but mudslinging and badly chosen words on BOTH ends. As a proud member of the OTHER forum I've recently returned to this one because I've had it under "trusted" word that this site is under a new management. As of this post this NEW management has shown me personally that things ARE different. That is good. Please let's not let this feud of "past" things mar what can once again be an awesome site of varied artistic and cultural exchange! Continued below -

Many of you know me as a really big clown in both forums...yes I'm often quite wacky and silly...but the truth is I have personally started my own company and while I don't share that info here (because PAN and my company shall never co-exist in the same sentence OTHER than here haha) I do understand what it is like to have costs. So in that aspect I can understand if selling advertising space here helps keep the bandwidth costs or whatever else down...running a server and stuff IS very costly. However there are some that object to that and prefer the OTHER forum for it's stand against "selling" stuff...that's fine too. Now I don't want a billion posts regarding "OH but they DO sell stuff" cause I don't care! My point is THESE are TWO DIFFERENT FORUMS! ONE caters a bit more openly than the OTHER plain and simple - HOWEVER they both have the same dream...to make poser known and respected throughout the Artistic community. So why should we be wasting time FEUDING over who said this and who said that? WE are WASTING VALUEABLE RESOURCES! I have yet to date to find ANY TWO sites that offer the FREE knowledge that THESE two do! Nudity or Pornography, Sold Ad space or Privitely owned...WHO THE 'ELL CARES!? DO YOU ALL STILL GET TO POST YOUR ART? YES....if not here then over there and if not there then OVER here......THE day someone from either forum says "SORRY NO MORE ART TO BE POSTED" I wonder if you will all feel as if "hey at least I used it while I could" or will you feel like "Damn, wish I'd used it a bit more" ? Continued below -

Face it people - all it takes is one "chicken-head" to get in a tizzy over this nonsense - start a legal battle and WHAM....we've all lost what we cherish. Please..let's let this nonsense end on BOTH forums. The truth is I've been sitting on an idea that "given" the right moment could literally make members follow the tune of PAN's flute and I'll start my OWN darn forum! DON'T make me do it! I'll lead the faithful few to the promised land and that will be THAT! Those left behind shall be like in Noah's day....beating their fists on my doors but I won't listen and membership shall be exclusive! Mu-hahahahahhaha! Now let's git back to rendering and quit this sissy feuding! GOT beef? Been Slandered? Speak with a lawyer folks but PLEASE let's end the feuding....AAARRRRGGGGG......(how many bridges have I burnt with THIS post?) PAN~

Pan ...who cares about toes? What matters is that you made a couple of very valuable points! Get over it people, quit the finger pointing with he/she did/said. Yup Jacks post isn't there but ed made sure it was reposted..point gotten no doubt.(just as a side note I saw the post by Grey when he originally made it and although a wee bit miffed to say the least...refrained from saying anything about it on either forums because I couldn't see the sense in all this stuff happening all over again...it made me truly spitting mad the last time and if it happened again I probably would have gone ballistic) This is serious stuff ...OUR ART!! not some kiddies sandpit brawl. So regsardless of age, race, creed or lifestyle choice how about a mature and level-headed approach to this? "Okay they posted that now I wonder what great things I can learn today...hmmm I wonder whats been put on the gallery..." Get the picture? Regards Eshal

Pan, I would respond to the content of your posting, but for the life of me I can't figure out what the content is! Please put put some thought into what it is that you really want to say and boil that down to a few well crafted sentences. I'm only half kidding. -Jeff H.

Due to the fact that I have become rather upset with this whole silly 'bashing' back and forth between forums it would appear I may have not 'crafted' my sentences well enough, nor put any proper thought into what I was posting. So for those that did not follow my postings content I have reworded my lengthy post into a more understandable, laymans posting, sure to be understood by all - "Why don't we all just cut the baby sh_t and do what we are here for, grow as a community and learn from one another" PAN~ Kidding is in the eye of the beholder.

The post was of a black guy with a big piece. I think its in the Gallery. It appeared in a thread. As best I can construct it someone at Willows place took exception and the image was reposted with some sort of clinging jock like affair covering the offending parts. Again speaking from memory a most self satisfied obnoxious post appeared celebrating this certification the values held so dear by many on that fourm. Frankly I thought the pic was doubly erotic with the draping and commented to that effect via privte E-mail to the artist. Christine

The only thing I can say is I have never run across a nastier pair than Willow and Grey...They dragged my name into this whole mess and I didn't have anything at all to do with it...They have accussed me publicly of being the person who originally got the whole thing going with his bodybuilder image...As far the posts being removed I am sure Grey did delete them but it wasn't because they were no longer of value. It had to be because of the slanderous claims and complete lies they said...Everyone keeps screaming get back to the subject of art and forget the everything else...Well, I am sorry, if you read posts by Willow and Grey you can see by their responses and the way they phrase things they help keep the fires burning. In fact, in this last go round Grey starting referring to the writer of the post by name but he was using my with AKA after it with the socalled fake name... So I have one final question..How would you feel is someone was accussing you publicly oh having posted something you didn't have anything to do with? Would you ignore that and keep posing or as Willow likes to say "render happy"? Kennect

Kennect - As you personally know I don't hold peoples opinions against them no matter what they believe. I also don't share things told to me in privite via email as you also well know. In your case I have viewed the posts and have seen there is indeed an occurring issue with you and the forum (or the forum and you, however you prefer). Again as I've stated before I cannot step in and say "This one's guilty or that one's guilty" because I was not there. I do find that on occassion many members from BOTH forums do come to me unsolicited and express opinions - perhaps because they know I do have an opinion but at the same time respect it if others do too. I will always speak my mind as long as I'm given a platform but the truth is (and those who know me well will account for it) if I am wrong and I realize that...I am THE FIRST to admit it. Again, I don't know what actually transpired between you and the forum but I don't hold any of it against you and you know that to be true. continued -

continued - As for the Body Builder Image - I'm not sure who you meant by "obnoxious self satisfied" post but I do recall many posts being made in there (MANY being MINE) and many opinions being expressed that had NOTHING to do with the topic. By the time I stepped into that post it was on fire and I never DID see the original image. If anyone would like to see my posts...they may do so but my reasons for stepping in were because many of the members began to bash MEN for the woes of the forum and I felt I had to speak my mind. While they argued of teaching our young men to be accepting they didn't realize they were also making them feel guilty for something they hadn't done and as we all know if you "attack" a child...don't expect he/she to like you very much after that. I commented to that effect because I thought the whole arguement was totally misdirected and the guilt being blamed without thought. I personally did NOT at all mind the art work shown...but I also DON'T OWN THE FORUM... PAN~

I have been following both forums since the great divide and I must say there is a big difference between the two. ( I am speaking from my own experiences only) It started with the split when 1 of my posts never made it( I checked for 2 weeks) I figured it wasn't good enough( oh well, I am to old to let something like that bother me to much) but since then I have submitted a couple of posts to both forums and granted I made a large fopah with one but this forum was much nicer about it and explained nicely what I did wrong. I guess what it boils down to is as a fairly new person to all of this( I have had Poser since P1 of course my daughter was at home on the computer so I didn't get a chance to play much) now I have P4 and Bryce along with Painter3D and am learning I am going to ask guestions and make mistakes, and sometimes I get hormonal. So I don't like to post there because I am afraid of making a mistake. The last mistake I made was suggesting that Casper LaCroix(P4 post ) was here. Well it is at PFO and I was told it had better not be here. Truthfully I thought that things were going to be at both places( I thought that it was an innocent mistake I got Casper here when it was Poser forum) Enough babbling! for anyone that reads this Thankyou.

Anybody have a copy of these deleted threads? I always seem to miss the interesting stuff. -JH.

http://www.poserforum.net/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000448.html This is where it started (atleast for me). The other thread was the one that was apparently not allowed and so it was removed and reposted as this one. I can't say for sure I wasn't in the first thread. But this thread has not been deleted. PAN~

Wow... my god, what have I done??? Okay, maybe I didn't do this entirely right and for that I am sorry everyone. The reason for posting here, what I posted there, regarding the comment made about this forum, was so that everyone would know where I stood on the issue of "Art vs Porn" not to get the "Us vs Them" issue going again. But to set things straight for everyone. I do visit their forum, not on the pretext of looking for a mud fight, but because I am a crappy artists, hell, I'm not even a real artist, but seek to learn as much as I can to hopefully, one day, be an artist. And people, Willow's and Grey's forum has ALLOT to offer!! I checked my password and retried last night, because truthfully, I have only posted there a few times and didn't remember the password since the password was issued to me. I am so much better at remembering passwords when I create them :o) Still, the post didn't go through, so yes, I thought I was banned. No big deal if I am or if I am not, it doesn't prevent me from viewing other's peoples wonderful pointers and artwork. I am like Pan, enough with the BS of mudslinging. Yes, they have their own way of running things, just as we do. That is no reason to "get up in arms" about. Yes, I do realize that some people feel slighted for one reason or another, that is their business and the business of those involved.

My belief is simply this: None of us are sheep. We don't need to be led down the roads that we choose. Be it artwork, writting or the way that we choose to live. We are only accountable for our own actions. I have been trying real hard to try and patch up the past between Willow, Grey and myself. Been doing so for two reasons. 1.) That the members of both forums can benefit from both and should be able to enjoy such without worrying about getting screwed for it. 2.) Because to make that first part work, it must first start with the people who operate the forums. That is why I have been trying to work things out through personal e-mail between Willow, Grey and myself. To better help them understand where we plan to go in the future and where we stand on issues. No, these feeling will not disappear in a blink of an eye. But if we all work at it, daily, slowly things will change. I do admitt, I felt hurt by what was posted about this forum and thought that things could have been worded a little differently. My only desire was to correct it by explaining where we stood on the issue. So please, everyone, put the pitchforks and torches down and let's get back to what we enjoy doing the most and have fun while doing it!! Jack

Jack the diplomat ;-)

Dude I have a prescription for my Pitchfork...really...no..really... PAN~ (ahhh..now to get back to my comic...)

yes i want it to stop!!!i cant say how bored and tired i was reading this thread and the other one at the other site why?...because no matter how many times you address it there will be someone else who will start this bullshit up again...i would get into more detail but then i would just be feuling this overrun debate about the two sides nnuu

::looks over his shoulder and nods agreement, then turns his attention back to the galleries and informative Forums on BOTH sites:: ed

To quote Rodney King " Why can't we just all get along?" ;) Hehehe............. Nice try jack!

My earlier post in this thread was based on the fact that Willow and Grey were accussing me of being the person that posted the bodybuilder image which ultimately created this thread...As I said before I was not that person but!!! I can now say that Ihave recieved personally and publicly have recieved an apology from Grey which truly thrills me to no end(I just wish Willow could admit to such also)...I have no reason to decieve anyone here or on Willow's forum....I hope this means that down the road I may have something of value to contribute to this forum....Personally I am very sorry that all of this happened in any way shape or form...And I really don't hold any grudge against Willow or Grey..I just hope in the future that they check out their socalled sources before making such accusations against innocent people such as me regarding this situation regardless of past differences...I also want to say a special sorry to Jack and I hope that my post didn't do anything to make this situation any worse....Kennect