okay was talking to a few folks who think we might be ready for a forum dedicated to the SERIOUS critiqing of images. this would be a sister forum to the Art Theory Forum... we thought that having a place where members could upload work to ask for MODERATED input from members who were serious about sharing their impressions, and observations. what do you all think?

Sounds like it could be a good way for people to get into posting their work without feeling too exposed. I'm in favour.

LOL! GMTA: I was thinking along those very lines about 20 minutes ago before even seeing this thread. I had been planning to ask for a beginner's forum for just such a purpose, as well as possible revisions to the information about posting comments in the Beginner gallery. Yeeehaw!

I think it's a great idea to help push the envelope for the more advanced and to guide those that are less experienced. Sometimes the artist is blind to the potential or possibilities that a work of art can reach. kinda like writers block. I'm for all for it. -Tim

Another forum I hang out at has one and it's worked pretty good. As long as people are considerate and helpful and not harsh and condecending, it's a wonderful idea.

I'm all for it. I always thought that the place we commented on images was the place to do that, but it hasn't turned out that way. So a forum would help, especially for those who want a more detailed and longer response.

It will work if it's moderated, since a critique forum will attract insensitive trolls (e.g. the thousands of teen-age boys who come here to view the hundreds of nude Vickies in the galleries ;-). Most people don't want to hear anything but praise, but some people want differing viewpoints that may spot areas where improvement is possible.

We already have a place to seriously critique images, in fact, we have 2 places. One, if theres a forum for it, whatever forum you made your image in, ask for comments and critiques. It usually works. 2, we have the comments box in the gallery which is meant for just such a thing. We've gained soething like 11 new forums in the past month and a half or so: zbrush, imagine, product showcase, art theory, mojoworld, dragon con, fractal, magazine interact, OT, texturing, and printing forums. In total, we have 49 forums (not counting admin forums), and 31 art galleries. Somewhere in that mess there is a perfect place to have our images critiqued already, by the proper audience audience.

and also, the forums and galleries are already moderated, unless of course, if someone says they don't like your image, the mods will delete the offending "insult" in this Critique forum.

It's not what you say, it's how you say it. There seem to be those who think that any sort of criticism in gallery posts should be forbidden. To prpperly address this, you have to understand two things- the purpose of gallery images, and the nature of criticism. IMHO, the entire site is dedicated to artists who, regardless of their educational level, are trying to improve in some way. One of the available elements for this is feedback from one's peers. Cirticism can be a powerful tool for improvement if used properly. What we have is a moderated system. Constructive criticism- along the lines of "for improvement, it might be better with x, x, and x"- is welcome. Unnessecary criticism of the artist or image- "this s*x, you stink"- can be deleted by the moderators. In the absence of a perfect system where everyone understands the value of constructuve criticism, this is the best we can do. Value the good ones, ignore the bad (and report the really bad). I would not, however, let a few bad eggs ruin the whole benefit for everyone.

umm, once again, the galleries are moderated. To my understanding, stuff like "blah blah this sucks" can be delted by either the mods, or the admins as far as I recall. "Constructive criticism- along the lines of "for improvement". In the gallery it says "Please post your HELPFUL comments here" to paraphrase it. By checking off the box, they are opening their image up to be commented and critiqued on. If they don't want negative comments, they can simply write "Nothing negative please." Everything here is already moderated. Why add yet another forum where it isnt needed? Nevermind the 49 forums, we have 22 forums for different pieces of software. People post their work there all the time to be commented on. 13 of the topic forum's names imply that they are for a certain type of art or other, and are also great to post stuff. Case in point: The photography forum. We have there a great community of artists who are posting new work every day, and get comments from both the regulars, and the people who stop by every once in a blue moon. Its the same with nearly every other forum except the Canoma forum pretty much. We have enough forums as it is guys. 49 forums between the software and topic section, and 31 galleries. The galleries are meant to show your work and get feedback (which is what the critique forum is about it would seem), and there's 31 different galleries! All those forums function the same way, only with a better sense of community. Personally, I think it would be better if the forums that already exist were flooded with more backroom content, and some of them are in sore need of it. Stuff like tutorials, links to useful sites, forum news pages, demos and freeware, direct links to things that affect the forum users and such. Why don't we get all the forums we have functioning at a superb level, rather than flood the community with forums that don't have any effort being put into them that deserve it. It's not what you say, it's whether or not it's something not nice, because it'll get deleted if someone frowns.

in a perfect world, i would agree with you slyky... what we find however, that people have a hard time posting serious critiques on images. i am looking at this forum as a way to teach people not only how to leave constructive critiques but how to handle having thier work looked at by someone who may not think it's wonderful, with the emphasis being placed on LEARNING from the experience, regardless of the audience 'approval rating.' by dedicating a forum to just this one subject, we can concentrate on that very thing. remember, not everyone is as self assured as you. this is for those folks who might need a bit more help in getting started. and you know, if you think it's a waste of time, you don't really have to post there. another benefit of this forum would be that we would know that the images placed in the forum are there specificially for that purpose. this will hopefully allow people who normally wouldn't dare say anything about an image, to open up and be honest about what they see without fear of being stomped on by the posting artist. finally, by teaching people how to leave beneficial critiques, we can help them do the same for their own work. it's training... how to see things from different perspectives and objectively. so, yes, it is another forum. and it will require a dedicated moderator, you are right. but the way i am seeing it, it can also serve a very real need that enough members have to be a benefit and worth the added overhead. that is my $.02

I get it. Kind of like a "shallow end" gallery for people to accustom themselves to critiques, and for the input to be strictly monitored. Great idea! Have you thought of possibly just co-opting the beginner's gallery for that?

just co-opting the beginner's gallery ?? how do you see that working?

I don't really need a "shallow end," even though I'm very much a beginner. What I do need is valid criticsm. To me, comments as simple as "Lovely," are just as useless as "Needs work," for example. In a forum that's dedicated to critiques, the people who frequent it are there for just that purpose. Who knows why folks leave some of the comments they do in the galleries when they're not instructive? Even if you were to figure out a way for co-opting the Beginner gallery, I don't see that as the total answer. More experienced artists want critiques and dialog, as well. What I was thinking about the Beginner gallery (mentioned in earlier post in this thread) is that maybe something should be said about the rating system; i.e., that people leaving ratings should remember that they're not rating experienced artists and should not hold the beginners to the same standards.

I'm all for it, audre. In answer to a few of Slynky's points, I would say this: The forum would have to be designed for both high and low end critiques. Meaning, if a newbie posted asking for basic advice on what people thought, the mods would have tobe sensitive to that; while at the same time keeping peoples' rights to opinions. For instance, negative commentary should be perfectly acceptable, so long as it's constructive to the forum's goals. In the case of a post that wasn't acceptable, maybe the mods could work with the member who posted to have the post reworded, instead of just deleted. Also, I agree with the earlier point about gallery comments and application forum threads for slightly different reasons than those stated. I see a critique forum as being a place where people could ask for specific direction on the critique, that is unavailable in the general image commentary. I also think that such a forum would organize the other app-specific forums, by giving people a "cross-application" place to look for advice. For instance, if I want commentary and critiquing of one of my 3ds images, putting it in the 3ds max forum will limit me to only those views of 3ds users. I've found that the people who have often had the most benefit to my work in 3ds were Rhino and LW users, who likely would never even see the image in the 3ds forum. Just my thoughts. Paul

Heh... Cross-posted Sipapu... I agree with your point, completely. A critique forum would have to allow for both ends of the spectrum. I think it could be easily workable, as long as the mods and members could work together to keep it clean. I wouldn't mind someone saying one of my images was dull, lacked technical ability, etc. so long as they didn't say, "Entropic sucks and shouldn't even bother." Most of the people I know want honesty in their feedback. I don't think it's honest to use hurtful commentary, even though a lot of folks would defend it as such. Honesty generally implies objectivity. If the mods of such a forum could understand that simple axiom, and maintain that standard, I'd frequent the forum. Also: I've noticed that a lot of the best artists have either lowered the frequency of their posts, or stopped altogether. Many of these say that it's because they don't feel that comments like, "Nice Work." and "Good Job" are useful. If this forum would give those people a reason to return, and even help newbies, then I think it's worth a shot. Paul

Attached Link: http://gozips.uakron.edu/~dab10/

I am wholeheartedly behind the idea of forming this forum, and would actually bewilling to help out in the little way (probably quite little with my excessive commitments in school right now) that I could.

~~~Duk~~~

The points which have been stated by Entropic are very good, and I agree with them. It is necessary to have some kind of communication between the artist and those viewing their work in order for any type of improvement that could be useful. As he has stated, keeping the comments "clean" and "supportive" would be of great benefit to all. :)

well, i am hoping that if we do get this forum in place... the majority of members who ARE interested will help set the tone. if the majority of members are serious about getting insighful feedback, then the forum will be successful and much more straightforward to moderate. in return, it will yield a much more useful result for all those who participate. hopefully this will create a positive feedback cycle that is self-supporting. hmmm was all that redundant ? audre mumbles about too much oatmeal between her ears these days

....its a good idea as long as its managed well... (im thinking of how a certain forum ended up becoming a flame pit, and got closed)

A good idea, just hope it doesn't become some place for spam... but I'd be happy to be honest and have honest criticism of my work. At least my views would go up ;)

i agree with kings opinion yes managed well and no flameing hopefully if it comes to be we can all learn and improve .

it's actually a great idea.. it's very seldom that you get feedback in the galleries that basically says something other than "I like it" or "I don't like it".. very few give the resons why they like it or dislike it, and what they think needs inmprovemt.. if this could be done in the galleries that would be great.. but as someone said.. I think it's gonna be hard to get everybody to do this in the galleries some might feel uncomfortable giving "negative" feedback.. they might not understand how the negative feedback actually helps the artist.. and they might be afraid of the artist giving counterfeedback back onto themselves just for "getting even".. (and some probably will..which is sad) This would be a great place for just that.. giving feedback on how to improve the image..giving the artist another persons view on things.. a bit more in depth..

I had that same thought, miyu... People should be able to give negative constructive critiscism without being afraid of hurting feelings. This way, if a person posted their image and asked for feedback in the forum, it would be saying, "It's ok to discuss my flaws." There have been a lot of times that my friends have asked me to tell them what I thought they were doing wrong, and I could tell them honestly, without coming across as mean or picky. As long as the mod team was good at recognizing the difference between a constructive negative comment, and a troll, I think it would work out marvelously. Paul ( Who, the more he thinks about it, really likes this idea )

Ok, here's my two cents. The galleries are a crap shoot. You can post a comment like "this is a nice image, but the light needs to come more from the left to match up more closely with the background" and get thanked OR you can post the same comment and get flamed in IM, e-mail and everywhere else for being a "troll" by not only the artist but friends of the artist. I've seen it happen. With a forum dedicated to critiques, you know going in that the artists posting are NOT looking for just "Oh how lovely" and "you're such a genius" comments, but want to know about that light coming from the left. I say go for it.

I think this is a cool idea. In reference to Slynky's post, I have to say that on at LEAST one occasion one of the mods of the Poser forum stated that the forum was not an appropriate place to post finished artwork for critique.

"Your helpful comments for improving this image:" Those words are below every image when the artist has checked the box for accepting comments. However, I think we've all seen how it works most of the time. I try to give helpful words, be encouraging, or just rave about it when the image really moves me. But it's tough to be the 16th person to post, want to give a crit after the first 15 have just gone nuts for the image. I know (because it happens to me, too) that sometimes you don't want criticism. Sometimes, the image is exactly the way you want it. But with a new forum like this, you would know that's what people were coming for. Of course, must be well moderated. I really don't think you'll get many postings from those who are just here for the nudies... they're getting their fix without having to read.

You want my two cents? Don't even bother with a critique forum unless you are going to staff it with moderators that have a real art education. Here's why, in the software forums when someone posts an image looking for constructive advice you will get 6 incorrect or misleading responses for every 1 correct and helpful one. Sorry to sound harsh, but some folks just like to chime in on posts whether they have anything to say or not. I always try to be helpful but sometimes you end up arguing with people who are wrong while they insist they are right. The original post is forgotten and it turns into a flame war (worst case scenario). Most people here aren't looking for honest critique, they are looking for validation. "Oh, that's soooo wonderful, great job!" is enough for them. Saying "You need to pay more attention to lighting", "More post work would get rid of those jagged edges" or "Try turning down the ambience on your textures...and turn the shadows on." usually pisses people off unless it's said just right. Creating a Critique forum just gives the "saccharin comment crowd" another place to coo over each other. (gag)

Well whatever. You guys are gonna do what you're gonna do. We already have places for comments and critiques. The only people who will use the new forum properly are the ones who already put valid comments and critiques in the galleries and forums as it is. Either that, or as Alleycat said, it'll just be a place for people to "coo" over eachother's work. We don't need a critique forum, but if you guys are that desperate to have yet another forum added to the list of the ones you "moderate", go right ahead. There are already 80 places on this site to get our work critiqued (the forums and galleries together), so what's one more I guess. and incidently, I found this somewhat amusing, but don't ask why. Micheleh isn't listed anywhere on "The Team" page of Rosity. 4 forums being modded, and not a single mention. The nerve! Wonder if there's some reason behind that that we don't know aboot... Anyways, once again, do what you want. You're going to anyways.

and incidently, I found this somewhat amusing, but don't >ask why. Micheleh isn't listed anywhere on "The Team" page >of Rosity. 4 forums being modded, and not a single >mention. The nerve! Wonder if there's some reason behind >that that we don't know aboot... only if you are looking for 'reasons'... you know all those conspiracy theories of the PTB who are constantly trying to fleece the membership. grin actually, it's not updated... there are quite a few new mods floating around here. when things settle out, i am sure the Team page will get a spring spruce up.

I think this would be a really good idea .. a safe place to work out the kinks in an image..I would love to be able to give and receive ideas.. someone said above that you will get folks that do not know what they are talking about giving out advice .. I do not really think you need to know EXACTLY what you are talking about to know a shadow is giving a strange effect or a light is reflecting off something it should not.. or that for some reason something looks off..besides this could be a place to develop your "eye" so to speak. I have often said that Renderosity needs to take a bit of a step back in time .. When I first started to frequent the galleries I remember the comments were very constructive .. not often very sensitive ;-).. but wow I use to learn a lot reading them . At that time the critiques were fairly brutal .. now I would not want to go all the way back there (I was to scared to post g) but surly we can find a place in between? Besides you do not have to take ALL the advice given .. pick and choose. My 2cents.

For the critics forum, if it is very constructive critics to help the artist i would say yes but even the work in progress gallery we don't even get sometime enought good critics except the ah, wow, keep it up...(i know even me sometime drop lines like this). Anyway that is my 2 cents. DenisG

I like the idea of a critics/WIP forum. One advantage is that you can have an ongoing "conversation" with people and have the previous comments handy while replying. Unless they changed recently, the Galleries only allow the posting artist to keep multiple entries per image. Anyone else will have thier earlier comments deleted. It's bit of a pain when having a public conversation, as opposed to a private one with IM, and you don't have previous comments.
True there is IM for such discussions, but sometimes a 3rd party can chime in with some helpful ideas.
Just a thought

Sounds like a gold idea to me....this could get users from other software packages to helpcritique images, because the galleries aren't a terribly effective way to get it done.

if you check out www.wetcanvas.com under channels go to the critique centre.... has general critique and harder critique.... also check out http://artcritiquegallery.com/ it has a digital forum as well...

Helps us keep this organzied since it is a request for a new forum. : )

I am new and I am learning 3d art and design. However I am an established musician on several websites. This is the same problem that you go through on music sites people either kissing up to the musician or idiots that come and say you suck. Unfortunately this is human nature and there is not much else that can be done because no matter how much somebody really wants to be critiqued, they also want to hear they are doing well. I read almost this whole thread and looked through at least the Lightwave and 3Ds Images and I have left no comment because I don't feel I am qualified to leave any comments because of my "newbie" state of mind. It saddens me to know that when I do post something and am truly looking for help with my work. I am going to have to wait forever to actually get a comment and possibly that will be from an asskisser. I thought it would be different but unfortunately the artist community is the same as the musician community people afraid to post true crit and idiots who have huge egos. :((((((((

audre, I know where you're coming from...and agree! I didn't read each post thoroughly, so this, or something like it, may have been suggested. To help guide critiquers (sp) and provide some uniformity, I suggest setting up a "form" with standard items to critique against, e.g., technique, color, composition, setting, emotional impact, etc. Each category could have a rating button along with a comments field to provide rationale. I'm a nut when it comes to standardization and think setting it up in this fashion would also "help" avoid the glowing comments on one end and insults on the other. It would also help the moderator pick out who is obviously out-of-bounds. There should also be a faq that explains in no uncertain terms the purpose of the forum, define the categories, and acceptable and unacceptable ratings/rationale.

Hello everyone... there have been some wonderful ideas here... howabout we start rounding them up? if everyone pitches in and helps us get things organized... we will have a forum that interested members help shape and define. so... who wants to start... What Standards should there be for posts in the Critique Forum?

I'll start with what I mentioned before (but they're not etched in stone so chime up if you have something better)! :-) First, I'd keep the rating scale from 1-5 for simplicity (you don't really want to THINK about 10 different definitions for each category, do you?) That would drive folks away from critiquing...and along that same thought, there probably shouldn't be too many categories either (we may have to experiment with that one though). TECHNIQUE. Flaws are: 1. considerable (need more work) 2. noticable (detract from overall image) 3. few (minor detractions) 4. scant (I had to squint to find one) 5. none COLOR: someone help me out here, I'm not a professionally trained artist. I'm goin' off some of the photography lessons I learned in high school when we had to walk... COMPOSITION. Balance is: 1. extremely distracting (there's way too much...) 2. somewhat distracting (you need to move quite a few things around) 3. some distractions but it's still an acceptable image 4. relatively free of distractions (just move this one thing) 5. no distractions SETTING. The subject: 1. doesn't even belong here 2. 3. It's getting late folks. The synapses aren't quite firing at 100% 4. 5. looks natural in this image EMOTIONAL IMPACT. This image: 1. did nothing for me 2. solicited a second glance 3. caused me to study it a bit deeper 4. moved me 5. invoked laughter/tears/sadness/etc. That's it for now...wait a minute. What about a "MOVEMENT" category?

Great start, PabloS! It would also be cool if next to or below each of the categories there was a text entry box for specifics. E.g., from his proposed list: TECHNIQUE. Flaws are: 1. considerable (need more work) 2. noticable (detract from overall image) 3. few (minor detractions) 4. scant (I had to squint to find one) 5. none Specific concerns: [[[text entry box]]] and so on....

Sipapu, I was just thinking the same thing. Another category. How could I have omitted LIGHTING? And what do you think about an OVERALL category? Let's brainstorm here too! Feel free to add categories that I may have omitted, alter what I've done, etc. You folks that have studied art. Throw in some of your Art 101 stuff. What are the major elements?

I think and Overall is a very good idea.. but that's just me :)

Definitely I like the idea of an Overall category, as well. Kind of a summary of all the rest.

Number one: Be nice. Helpful. I don't know if I'd go with a numbering system... sounds too much like rating. What I think doesn't need much help, someone else might think needs a lot. I think a lot of direction should be given by the person submitting the picture. What are they looking for? Something for their desktop or a piece for Time magazine? Some responsiblity should be on the person posting the image. For instance: if you're totally satisfied with the lighting, and will never change it, then just say you're looking for help on composition, for example. Tell the people why you're posting the image. What are you looking for? That's one reason why it's tough to critique in the galleries.... one doesn't know how close and personal the image is to the artist's intent. Being helpful is something we all want to be, but it helps to know where the artist is coming from.

I smell about 50 posts getting deleted within a week of creation due to a "general lack of niceness" or something round those parts.

strictly monitored? I smell another mess, especially if Micheleh is gonna be put in charge there. There's a difference between moderating and going Rambo with the lock and delete and banning button. Also, I'd like to say that if this forum does get the go, the mods other than Micheleh and Audre do the moderating. I say this without taking anything in the pst into account. Rather, I look at the forums link, and see your names next to 5 forums. You're hands should already be kinda busy as it is, and if they aren't then the effort those forums deserve aren't being recieved.

4 forums, sorry.

Like voodoo, I don't like the idea of categories and ratings, much. For instance, one of the things that got me interested in this idea to begin with is that I wanted a place to post my images where I could get some idea of the emotional impact of the piece, while remaining aloof from critiques of technical prowess. On the same note, I understand people who prefer it the other way around. If I wanted to know what impact a piece had on the viewer, them rating in various categories would be pretty arbitrary, and tell me very little. As for the standards, I don't think the forum should be as "tight" as other places. While I understand the need for strict interpretation in some forums, I could see it killing this one quick. I'd like to see it become a relaxed atmosphere, where if a critique seemed out of line, the mod was someone who could send an IM asking for a reword or delete from the person who posted. This would solve a lot of the problems with what many view as censorship. At the same time, if the member was unresponsive or took it personally, the mod would have to be willing to step on toes to keep wars from breaking out, and I respect that. Also, the mod should be able to spot other potential forms of abuse not incumbent in the ToS outright. I personally could foresee people trying to use this forum as a place to gain comments, views, and votes for their image that they did not necessarily warrant. I could also foresee several ways it could be used to sell products ( which is the domain of the Product Showcase ) and to start flamewars. Whatever mod got put in that position, would have to know their way around the membership pretty well, and have pretty good judgement. Ironbear comes to mind, for me, because of the things I've seen him do in C&D, which included a lot of times knowing when something was about to happen, and diffusing the situation with the people involved on a one-on-one basis. Of course, C&D wasn't always under control, but IMHO it would have been a thousand times worse without IB's abilities. Contrary to what Slynky thinks, I also think Micheleh would do well in the forum, if she could handle the extra work. I say this, because, contrary to popular belief, I think she has a good heart, and sharp wits. I think the OT forum has forced her to get seasoned quick. My only caution in that matter would be to her, to not let herself think that this forum could be handled the same way OT is. It just wouldn't work. OT's run the way it is because of the nature of the forum, whereas, to be as strict in this forum as is necessitated in that, would lead to so many more problems. The last thing I'll say on moderation is this: Whoever you pick, make sure that all the mod's have a good consensus from day one. The witnessed inconsistencies in TOS interpretation could be easily stopped, if the mod teams took the time to see past their differences, and act decisively. Basically, I know that the inconsistencies are because you are all different people, with different POVs, and when there's no one around to consult, each mod/admin must act on their judgement. All I'm saying is that, before the forum even opens, all the mods involved should find the time to sit and discuss any abuses and grey areas they should look for, and decide how the TEAM will deal with them if they occur. What's the old saying? "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cheese curd." Wait... that's not it.... Anyway, I'm done telling you guys how to do your job, I'm sure you're much better at it than I am... Just thought I'd speak my mind FWIW. Regards, Paul

wow. That last post is really long, huh? *8^>