Attached Link: Caligari Press release

"Today we announced new strategic relationship with Curious Labs Inc that will focus on an improved integration between trueSpace and Poser. Poser is a powerful, easy to use and elegant character design tool with a complete set of tools for design of realistic
humans, including bodies, faces, hair and animated clothing."

Instead of trueSpace, CL should be forming strategic alliances with the big boys creating Lightwave, 3DMax, Maya and Cinema 4D. More bad decisions on their part IMHO.

who says they aren't? this is just one press release...

"the big boys" More chauvinist shit! Just because they are high-priced doesn't make any product or company worthwhile. (I sold my copy of 3dStudio for a damned good reason.) And a big BOY is nothing to be proud of... I've worked for too many immature twats in suits. Since Poser ProPack has plug-ins for all the major packages, it stands to reason that CuriousLabs already has business arrangements with their makers (see how much better that sounds than "big boys"?) and we can expect plug-ins to follow. Personally, I'd rather that they get the Mac version out next. Plug-ins can wait. Carolly

Er...no offense pal, but, there are LOTS of Truespace users out there, and unlike Max ,Lightwave, and Maya users they don't have tons of options for character creation, cloth simulation, etc... Also I'm willing to bet that the demographics for Poser and Truespace users line up better because Truespace like Poser is affordable and has an easy to learn interface. I'd love to have Lightwave 7. (Seriously considered it.) It's great software and It is pretty affordibly priced but I don't want to spend the extra 1000 dollers on it just to have to learn the most basic operations from the ground up again, and have 3 better versions come out by the time I get to using the features that lightwave has over TS. :) Hell, I haven't even Upgraded TS for 2 versions. (If you could slap LW render engine and animation tools into truespaces interface and modeller I'd be pretty happy.)

Until the "Big Boys" become less concerned about tremendous profit margins and bring the price of their applications down to the point where they are affordable, it is better in my opinion to deal with TS or other more affordable applications. $3000.00 + ? my first new motorcycle didn't cost that much.

Until the "Big Boys" become less concerned about tremendous >profit margins and bring the price of their applications Ok, I'll play. ; ) Until Poser 5 can walk and talk like a "big boy" program, us Lightwave, 3ds and C4D users dont need Poser integration! Ha! Hows that for spinning the tables round to the truth?

$3000 does not contain that large of a margin for the amount of developement it takes to support programs like Maya and Max. (and maya is only $2000)

Does the press release imply a poser 5 plugin? It doesn't seem to.

Quoll (and reiss), sounds like a perversion of the facts. You may well speak for yourself and a vocal minority of 3ds users probably not the majority. I figure that if Poser didn't offer you something that 3ds didn't, you wouldn't be here in the Poser Forum to have this conversation, not so? I'd be willing to bet that 3ds and Maya recovered the majority of their deveopment costs years ago. Setting the cost as high as they do only serves to keep the "lower classes" from having access to "professional level" applications. Lightwave, from what I hear, has had more development costs than either maya or 3ds max - yet it's cheaper than either one.(If I were spending money on a high end app, lightwave is the way I'd go. They are at least trying to keep it real.) In short I think that it's high time that more people had access to 3ds max, maya (and lightwave). 1 cents worth - (I'm saving my money), - TJ

bikermouse: "Setting the cost as high as they do only serves to keep the "lower classes" from having access to "professional level" applications." it looks like some conspiracy! why on earth, might they want to act so? look what happens to cl when selling the software that has not even 1/10 of max' (for instance) complexity for 1/10 of the price: they can't pay salleries for months! plus discreet pays their beta-testers! if i had known that p5 wouldn't have plugins ready this long after initial release i wouldn't have bought it. i'm working now with p4 & ppp and one of the reasons is that i can export to max.

"I'd be willing to bet that 3ds and Maya recovered the majority of their deveopment costs years ago. Setting the cost as high as they do only serves to keep the "lower classes" from having access to "professional level" applications. " I've worked with A|W in the past, (and present at times), they keep a huge staff in developement, and the costs to keep the software going, simply in terms of staffing is far higher than the cost of Curious Labs, and Poser. and yes! of course I'm here because I love poser! but I also know that the extra features/continued dev on maya justify it costing 10x as much. It's not the elitest move that you think. It really does cost a ton to upkeep the software. As more users turn to 3d, the larger companies can lower their prices, but it's still set at about the right price for the user base.

Why bother with the "Big Boys" when there are far easier to use modelling programs like Amapi going for free, people still have the idea that more money = better program. What's going to happen when Daz Studio arrives & is priced roughly the same as Poser? Is that one going to be a toy as well? Wake up & smell your coffee guys, the days of the high priced modelling program are numbered.

"What's going to happen when Daz Studio arrives & is priced roughly the same as Poser?" I'm really looking forward to studio, but I don't kid myself that it's going to have a large toolset like any of the current batch of high end 3d apps.

That was my point reiss :) these guys hailing Daz studio as the next big thing right now are going to turn on it like they have with poser as soon as they find out it's priced as a "toy" just like poser. I will say that Daz Studio looks really good from the screenshots we've seen but only time will tell how well it works for us out here in the real world ;) you just have to look at the problems P5 has had since release, it's getting there quickly though. Anyway I think it's good news that Poser is getting some support with closer integration with a modelling program, lets hope it's easy to use so I can finally start trying to model something.

ah yes circle! agree 100% :) that's what readin' the forum at 2am does to me, lol

aleks, cl is not unique, bought out a company who had already taken most of the profit from sales for P4 with only the promise of P5 in the works. They had been operating at a loss I'm sure until P5 came out - It will probably be a while yet before they completely did themselves out. 3ds is quite a different story - they have been very hewroic in my opinion - and who mentioned conspiracy? c1rcle, I don't forsee that happening, companies get top heavy as they get larger - the more you do the more you have to do. and when you take out public stock there is always the possibility of a takeover, the landsharks not always having the companies best interest at heart. both the customers and the employees end up getting screwed. reiss, The huge staff you mentioned is part of the problem for sure - but let me see "the books" then I may change my opinion - or not. also if 3ds reduced their price to say $1000.00, and streamlined the op they would probably have a much greater sales base. Hey let me CEO the place - I'd shake the place to the rafters . . . and beyond! * * * 3ds reminds me of the guy who day after day was selling an egg for $100,000.00 - when you ask him about the price he said, "but I've only gotta sell one." * * * and quit quoting my posts dag nam it! - use yer own words! - TJ

The more programs that play well with Poser, the better it is for working artists. I can't say that I've ever used just one program for any piece of 2D art I've made, so why should 3D be so different? Every program does somethings better than others.

Lyrra, I dream of a day when all graphics software will interact with each other, and be affordable to all. Impossable? perhaps today, but tommorrow who knows . . . but as it stands development costs do seem to get in the way so it won't be soon. CL + TS is a good start. lets hope the trend grows. with that I'm going to get some undeserved rest. good night all, - TJ

Big boys or Big Dogs, whatever. The politically correct police in these forums can't change the fact that Poser will always be looked upon by the leaders of the 3D modelling and animation industry as nothing more than a toy app for hobbyists unless it works seamlessly with applications such as Lightwave or Maya, the very apps that supply it with beautiful models such as Victoria and Michael.

Agreed, Ideally CL should be trying to get poser well integrated with all major 3d apps. That being said, TS USERS ALWAYS GET THE SHAFT. TS is a VERY POPULAR peice of software. So what if you can count it's pro uses on one hand you can say that about poser too. I certainly think a software which is widely used by hobbyists (and some well liked contributors to the poser community) should have equal support as software which could be afforded only by a minority of poser users. and who's major user base would never stoop to using a "Toy" like poser. (PS I am not dissing Lightwave, I love Lightwave and newtek, only the other big boys in the 2k+ range)

Also this is starting to sound like one of those pointless arguments in Videogame forums. "Sega Sux, Uh uh Sony sux, uh uh Nintendo sux, uh uh.... atari sux... uh yes yes they do." :)

I'm with Ratteler on this one... Lightwave DOES rule. The most stable, complete, capable and rewarding to use software I've ever put into my CD tray. I think that the ability to use PPPack with it is awesome and hope that the Truespace crowd can get the same enjoyment with it as I do with LW. Power to the people!!

All, After pondering on it I think I should apologise for the 'dag nam it' statement - with an explaination. It has become common practice on these forums to quote partial statements often out of context from previous posts. At times it becomes hard to understand whether the quoter actually understands your point of view or is simply being argumentative. Quoting prevoius posts has probably started many flame wars because to the original poster it often comes off negatively. To paraphrase the original poster's statemrnt would be better as then you can get a better idea of the repliers point of view, it shows a greater intellectual versitility and commands the respect of the original poster rather than their distain. with the above in mind, I sincerely apologise for the 'dag nam it' statement. In the future I hope to be able to try 3ds max, maya and lightwave. I can't really givean opinion on any of the three at present as fat as experience goes. I do know from what I've read that lightwave is used more commonly in professional media and is likely the up and comming 3d app. in the meantime I will have to settle for using gmax, amapi and carrara. Gmax can be quite versitile with the right (g)max scripts. I do hope that 3ds and maya will find a way to reduce the cost to the consumeer and that lightwave will continue to hold prices down. This TS + Poser thing sounds good - we'll see. - TJ

Reiss-studio, What marketing theory are you operating on? Last time I looked into it, the only things you should consider when setting a price are unit cost and demand elasticity. All other considerations, such as the capital cost of R&D are irrelevant. You will either make them back or you will not, but you will lose the least or make the most by pricing your product accordng to unit cost and demand elasticity. Now unit cost is the extra cost of shipping 100 copies more last month than you did divided by 100. You can factor in support costs (but need to estimate them accurately) but fixed costs like rent, power bills and regular phone bills don't count (long distance related to support might). The trick is to determine the elasticity of demand, which may take a trial sale price episode or two to fix and which probably changes a bit seasonally, too. But once you know the numbers, you can price effectively. I'm no genius, but I get the funny impression that a LOT of software is priced right out to lunch. And I often wonder why software manufacturers don't sell unsupported versions of mature products with support supplied extra (at a price).

doldrige, heya, if you check the original post it was a response to someone who said that companies like A|W and Discreet had made back all their costs years ago, and were now just being elitist, which couldn't be farther from the truth. yes, you set your price based on supply and demand, and right now there is a demand for reliable professional apps in the $2000-$4000 range. there's also a demand for less expensive programs done by smaller teams in the $200-$800 range. I'm not going to go through a feature comparison, but there are reasons that film shops go with Maya, and most commercial/video game housees go with maya/max (and with some lightwave thrown in). While a lot of people moving up with 3D go with programs like truespace. They're all great programs, and they all fill a certain market niche. I'm sure as the world of 3D users get's larger, then the prices of the software will continue to drop! It wasn't so long ago (5 years!) that the only really professional apps were Poweranimator, TAV, and Softimage. And they all cost $30,000 ! I mean the base apps were only $10,000 (cheap!) but it really cost an extra $10,000 if you actually wanted character tools, and another $10,000 if you wanted particles (or in some of the programs, better modelling). I got a discount on mine since I was just starting out the salesman helped me, and I only paid $15,000 :) and it was only $14,000 for my used indigo2XL with a blazing fast 150mhz r4400 cpu. cheers! -Josh

Yes, but is the elasticity of demand REALLY what these prices seem to be claiming? I'm pretty sure actually, that it is not. I mean, to look at some of these prices, you would think these people were selling water on the moon.

"Yes, but is the elasticity of demand REALLY what these prices seem to be claiming? " so far... yes! I've seen what's offered from 3D programs at the $500-$800 level and I can't use them for the level of jobs which we use Maya on (or other people find they use max/lightwave on) If Maya/Max were to be available on the sub-$800 priced range, then they would only be able to support a limited set of features in the current market. In this case professionals would have to switch to the software companies which were charging more, and maintaining the higher level of support/features. So I guess this means that the demand is there! and of course the price will drop as the market continues to get larger, but they probably couldn't drop it much more right now. cheers! -Josh (and if someone has a plan to get water to the moon for $2k, they should help out nasa... now those guys are using some seriously overpriced software! ;-)

raw data -

"just the facts, mamm." - Jack Webb

discreet's statements:

"Our Commitment
Helping our customers do what they do. Better.
Our premier commitment is to our customers. By continually stretching the realm of possibility
in seamlessly integrated tools for new media, we help them transform the science of virtual
manipulation into the art of visual entertainment. And that pushes the envelope for us all.

About 3ds max 5:
The suggested retail price (SRP) for 3ds max 5 is US $3,495. Upgrades from 3ds max 4 to 3ds max 5 have an SRP of US $795. 3ds max is available from local Discreet resellers and on the Discreet e-store: www.discreet.com/purchase. Visit Discreet at: www.discreet.com or call 800-869-3504 or 514-393-1616 for more information on 3ds"

NYSE analyst:

From Louis Navellier's blue chip growth: http://www.bluechipgrowth.com/99stocks/print.php
He says you should sell auto desk(descreet - 3ds max).

"ADSK Autodesk Inc Computers Software/Services -0.412 $1.50 20.2 10.6% " (the 1.50 figure is market capital in $1,000,000,000.00(US billions) of dollars)

First, look at the upgrade price - why can't they just sell outright for that price - answer the could.

Second, somehow pleading poverty for Discreet/Autodesk which has assets of over $1.5 billion(American) seems absurd to me.

Third, the CEO of Autodesk(Discreet) is a member of board of the NYSE. Autodesk is considered a BLUE CHIP STOCK.

Please don't think I EVEN believe that Discreet could not sell 3ds for $800.00US and still make a reasonable profit.
If Autodesk/Discreet wants to reduce their risk factor below 10% and broaden their customer base they will find a way to reduce the
cost to the first time customer or in the failing (Bush) economy they will eventually fail as well.

Just my opinion . . . And the facts,

• TJ

max is only a small portion of Discreet. Discreet was huge before max, making half a million per unit with just the "flame", now inferno, and combustion on the low end. which is how they brought max. I couldn't comment (looking at the whole company) if only one portion (max) is profitable or not based on the whole figures. but it's some interesting figures!