For those of us who were having a serious discussion. Carry on.

Just keep it clean and about the issue

That was not directed at any one person BTW. Just a reminder to all

Understood, Sir. ;)

Thanks Micheleh.

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Hrmm... I said I wasn't coming back to this. But - since I helped kick some of this last round off, I'll give it one response before dusting my heels off of this place for good. Might as well, since I damned well kicked off that last "merchant's banning" thread deliberatly and with malice aforethought. Here is my perceptions regarding your two posts, Tammy: "It was implemented hastily without looking at all sides." - tammymc That's a trend that's been going on at this site in the admin level for the full 2+ years I've been involved with it. That one statement sums up the history of all of the admin decisions that have blown up in the face of this site. And that are going to continue to blow up in your faces. "I think with the continued discussions and the incident with Ironbear..we stepped back and listened. " - tammymc Why "with the incident with Ironbear"? As opposed to stepping back and listening before? Not like you haven't had previous intimations that you were making decisions that were based on dubious practices and reasoning. "I had some private communications with Ironbear as well which I could not give him -what I considered a reasonable explanation." - tammymc Could that have been because you didn't have a reasonable or reasoned explantion? Not the first time. Private communications? You mean the two IM's well after this blew up? You never bothered to email me directly during the course of any of this, either you or Tim, to discuss it. Or by phone. Did you with any of the other affected parties? Or did you - as usual - stick ClintH out to be your hatchet man and let him deal with it? A simple "this is what we're thinking about doing, and since it's certain to affect you, we'd like to discuss it" on the phone or email would have been a simple courtesy. One that I would have extended to you in the reverse situation. Evidentally not a courtesy that ever suggested itself to you. "He and many of you were removed because of participating in another online store. " shrug I had "a participation with another online store" for almost the full time that I was employed here, both as a store tester at the 3Dc [with your, Yvette's, and ClintH's knowledge] and as a merchant at other sites. Every mod who's also a merchant at another site has a participation at another store - as long as they also have access to that other sites merchant's forum. Ditto for every multi site merchant. If they're going to "leak" information out of the secret merchant's forum, it's going to happen. In my case, if it wasn't a problem while I was working as a mod at two sites, then it didn't suddenly become one when I became a store admin at another site. "I think more than anything we were reacting to fears. We had good intentions just the wrong actions. " - tammymc Road to hell is paved with good intentions. Maybe you should put "But we meant well!" on the site banner? ;] It can become the complimentary quote to the unofficial Renderosity motto: "But it seemed like a good idea at the time". "Those merchants removed were removed for the wrong reasons. We made a mistake and trying to correct it. " and "We appreciate all members giving their feedback. It made a difference." - tammymc Did it really? How did it make a difference? In what way? How are you planning to correct it? What would you say are the "right reasons" for doing what you did? In my case, don't bother. Address the answers to those questions to the members and merchants who still give a damn. And with whom you might be able to salvage some semblance of credibility. Probably new members and merchants. You may have already lost too much credibility with the old ones to rebuild or regain it. ************************************************************ Only way that you're going to be able to "fix" this is by fixing the root actions in your methods as admins of this site in how you deal with members, merchants, and this community. You keep doing the same things: asking for feedback and ignoring it, dictating rather than listening, refusing to think things out before doing them, implementing half baked policies and then reversing suddenly when they blow up in your faces, implementing policies [nudity in banners a prime example] and not enforcing them or enforcing them sporadically and in contradicting fashions.... The list can go on and on. The examples culled from two years of quotes could fill this and several other threads. Personally, I don't think you can do it. Not short of a site lobotomy at the admin level - the behavior that keeps you doing these things is too ingrained. But if you don't figure out a way to do it, then all of your "We made a mistake and trying to correct it" is just blowing smoke up the collective asses of the membership. I'm inclined to think, based on observation, that blowing smoke up the butts of the members is all you guys know how to do any more.

Now... since you brought me into this again by name, specifically, Tammy, I'm going to ask you direct: How speciifically are you planning to "make this right"? In my case, you took a member who was a long time, if controversial and adversarial, supporter on this site, and - going by your own words in your posts - slapped him across the chops for no good reason. And in so doing, you potentially turned disagreement over issue into enmity. And you did so for reasons that by your own admissions were in error. What do you have in mind for ammends on this? And do you really see a way to mend things here? Don't bother to respond in this thread: I won't be coming back to it. You do however have my email and my phone number. You can start by etending the courtesy of a direct communication that you evidentally didn't feel a need to be bothered with before. If you're interested. I won't hold my breath. ;] *********************************************************** Spike? I'll take it to private communications if I choose, not because you're flexing your nonexistant admin muscles. I don't do jump on command real well - find yourself another frog.

Well, Take care of yourself..

Attached Link: http://3-darena.com

I would have to say that the first step in trying to rectify this would have been a personal communication to each merchant that was affected by this decision - prior to posting publically, a personal apology. Not a site declaration done to improve the "morale" of members who weren't locked out. As for the comments regarding misuse of communications and tools. Not very likely, how would access to the members forum have allowed "misuse of communication"? I highly doubt any other site owners garnered traffic to their sites via the merchant's forum. If they were looking for merchant's a trip to the stor would suffice. Misuse of tools?? Over and over again it has been stated that merchant's locked out of the merchant's forum would still have full access to all the merchant tools, if this was true then how would locking us out have prevented "misuse"? I for one am frankly offended that you would imply misuse on my end. As for conduct - well the only ones with a right to judge my conduct are my mother (who knows better) & the Creator(and that's classified info). Other than that teacher's and babysitter's and frankly I outgrew them a long time ago. But for the record I for one have never even received one single warning from the admins/mods of this site. Now the implication is that my conduct was somehow inappropriate? But Isuppose that eventually the admins here have won on a small score, IB doens't come here anymore and I rarely post to the forums anymore either - I generally don't care now (until you imply I'm unethical). So I guess a certain moderator who posted in that infamous moderators post that was circulated that I and others should be stopped from pointing out the inconsistencies here (not how she put it of course) by a group of mods/admins got her way. Lastly a thank you to micheleh for commenting that I was honest and had integrity. I do try :-D (link added so none will claim to not know I am a site owner)

sorry for typos - you try typing with a squirmy teething sick 7 month old on your lap :-D

I would agree that we have moved to quickly on some implementations of events without throughly thinking them through. I also agree that we need to slow down and increase the communications to the appropriate people. I clearly understand ... Actions do speak louder than words. I have to disagree with you on the 2+ years of management. We have done some neat things on this site and implemented them appropriately. We may disagree on how to manage some areas but I don't consider those mess ups. Maybe a difference in management thinking. I don't have any excuses just trying to make some things right. How specifically are you planning to "make this right"? By changing this new policy so everyone that wants to sell has access. That it is not about who or where you work but based off a code of conduct. What do you have in mind for ammends on this? And do you really see a way to mend things here? If you want all your products back in the store with forum access as before, then we can do that. Just let us know. As far as ammending the "slap in the face", I can't take that back only try to improve this going forward. thanks tammy

Are you going to publically post the "code of contact" to be viewed before a member signs up as a merchant?

yes, all of this will go in effect next monday. tammy

Thanks for the update - I for one will never come back here as a vendor but at least I appreciate that an apology was given - however "non-personal" it may have been.

Understand and appreciate the honesty. Sorry that it went this way. tammy

Hi Tammy, I have purposely stayed silent in all these threads on here on Rosity both with the recent issues with Ironbear, and with the past issues of the banning of myself and other people several weeks ago. On my own site, I have continued in my personal posts to give the benefit of the doubt as much as my personal ire and anger over it will allow, continuously reminding people that I KNOW you and Tim personally, as well as Clint and Jeff, and that you are not in fact evil people, and that all of this is somehow a failure to communicate. I still maintain that, even when I have been very angry. One of the things that has made me most angry has been the continual slander that has been levelled against myself and the rest through calling into question our conduct, and citing that as some reason for this happening. I would challenge you personally to find evidence of bad conduct on my part in the Merchants forum. For many many months the extent of my "conduct" has been to ask the occasional question to clarify something if I were not clear, otherwise to keep silent out of respect for the fact that I did not wish to cause any ruckus. It has also angered me to find that next we were accused of somehow being spies whose sole goal was to take ideas that originated on Rosity and rush off and implement them on our own sites. Again, I challenge you to find one single original idea that originated and was posted about in the Merchants forum on Rosity that has been used on my own small site, PoserPros. Ok.... but moving on. You say you made a mistake and want to move on, want peace, want people to give you another chance. I can well understand that, having felt that way my own self many times when I make mistakes. Moving on usually means you need to look at things from the other persons point of view, if the lesson is to be learned and the mistake not be repeated. One of the "perspectives" that could help this problem from ever occuring again is to realize that just because a small site exists does not mean it is a competitor against Renderosity in a bad way. RuntimeDNA is an example of you all realizing that. All our little sites are alot like RuntimeDNA really. Small sites with huge bills to pay who found that to stay open HAD to begin selling a few things. PoserPros, my own little site is totally non-profit even... we are not all out to make our fortunes and put others out of business... just keep our sites open by being able to pay the bills for them. I had wanted to place UltraSalon II Elvencourt here you know. I purposely did not put it exclusive into my own store because I had planned to place it here once the introductory sale on it was over. Then the same week my sale on it ended, before I could even upload it, you folks locked me out of the merchants forum without even a note, instant message, phone call... anything. I was an active merchant. Faeriegurl and I had a brand new product we had just placed here. I had three exclusive products that each in their time had been best sellers, and still were best sellers. I was a merchant that predated most merchants here, and even when I opened my own little store had NEVER pulled my products from this store out of respect for a promise I had made to Vette and ClintH ages ago, and kept planning to submit more things as I could... as I said I had planned to place UltraSalon II here on a non-exclusive basis.... So naturally... none of this makes sense to me, for all of the above reasons. I have been meaning to get in touch with you about lunch or something so we could try to talk on all this, since as I have said, I believe all of this is a failure to communicate on some level or another that has led to fears of people you had no need to fear.... How can all this be resolved Tammy?

Tammy: "We have done some neat things on this site and implemented them appropriately." Such as? Admittedly, I've seen programming added to the site in order to make it run smoother, but this doesn't really classify, IMHO, as a neat thing. I'd, more than likely, classify it as a necessity. Are you talking about the multi TOS changes, again, not a neat thing, a necessity. Um... sales of artwork, while interesting, I wouldn't call it a neat thing and it really didn't pan out. Err... asking some admin to focus on other areas rather than moderating? Not a 'neat thing', again, more like a necessity. Selectively banning merchants from the merchant's forum. NOT a neat thing. Not even really a necessity unless paronia is taken into account. The magazine? Okay, I'll give you that one, it is a neat thing... so that one I will give to you. The partnership with Curious Labs and Content Paradise, it'd be a neat thing if that company wasn't clinging on for life and if Content Paradise actually worked as intended.... so not a neat thing. The deletion of the Complaint and Debate forum, certainly NOT a neat thing, no one has a central place to bitch at any longer so tiny fires spread all over the site increasing the need for admins and moderators to scramble trying to put them out, which results in locking threads and bannings... certainly NOT a smart... nor Neat thing. Opening a Poser 5 Beta forum, this wasn't a neat thing, this was a necessity to clean out the Poser forum from constant complaints about non working software issues. A necessity... not a neat thing. Opening a DAZ Studio forum (which will occur I am sure), again, a necessity. In order to better serve the membership who own or use that software. Not a neat thing, just good business move. So what NEAT THINGS are we talking about here? Newsletter freebies? A necessity to increase advertising for the RMP. Contests, would be neat if they were employed fairly, so not neat. I'll tell you what would be NEAT, to have an administrative change that would PROMOTE the feeling of COMMUNITY!! To have someone actively IN CHARGE with a clear cut business plan on how to promote an atmosphere DIFFERENT from the FREE FOR ALL, FEND FOR YOURSELF, and SELECTIVE MEMBERSHIP TREATMENT that has been going on in this site since DSI, Traveler, Colm, LoboUK, Tartan, Ironbear and a host of other fine staff left. Renderosity isn't a community, it is a resting place. A place where individuals come to get their freebies and have to fight tooth and nail (and flames) to get involved. Where is the love, folks, where is the love? LOL!! This site doesn't NEED "neat things", it needs a constant source of direction, accountability for mistakes made, it needs a Community... a FAMILY style atmosphere and it needs to treat its members fairly and equally across the board... bells and whistles will not make this site... direction, involvement and personality (other than it's current one) will. Just my take on it, Jack

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The deletion of the Complaint and Debate forum, certainly NOT a neat thing, no one has a central place to bitch at any longer so tiny fires spread all over the site increasing the need for admins and moderators to scramble trying to put them out, which results in locking threads and bannings... certainly NOT a smart... nor Neat thing. jack d...you were right on the money about many things...in my book this is your top right on the money statement. as far as banishing competitors???? doh....buy a clue. you keep your friends close, your enemies closer. how much business sense does it make to get rid of folks who are making money selling at another site????? NONE...if they are well known, and, selling here...doh....revenues. most likely more revenues to you than to the smaller site. loosing the big talent is the stupidest thing i have seen r'osity do. and, it has taken so much of the fun that the big brains offered off the boards. so, okay, now, swell....i can look forward, myself and all the alleged 100, 000 members...to the milksop renders in the gallery, by all the newbies who have set up stores, and are fully prepared to "yes massa" to all infinity. afterall...they have many clones, and, are mostly fresh off the aol/compuserve graphics lists.

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Mehndi - Tim and I are free for lunch this friday. Just give us a time or if this does not work, please let us know what does. We are waiting for a time from you and Russ. There was no miscommunications... Poor implementation on our part. The reason merchants were removed was for the wrong reasons...which you were removed because you own an online brokerage site. When really we would want to remove merchants based on a code of conduct. I don't think that we will have any big issues with conduct if we communicate what those are and why. I think most would agree and find them reasonable. We failed by not doing this and trying to set this right. Let me know about lunch. Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------- Illusions very well communicated. I agree. Jack, I think we have done some neat things in the past 2 years. Created a private merchant forum Automated system for selling Revamped the marketplace twice Tons of tools for merchants Refocused our marketing where merchants get 70% of the advertising space Restructured the front page adding products and more content AOM/AOY Upgraded the chat Added new features to the gallery Massive server upgrades New Tutorial system Adding software section and CDs to the marketplace Weekly newsletter freestuff Grew membership currently 130,000 Grew merchants currently 700 and products to 4900 Warehouse Marketplace accepts PayPal Graphics Dictionary Revamped the Home pages Created a section to highlight artist by genre Wishlist private and public More Contests More forum challenges Forum backrooms Getting artists in 3D World monthly since last February (i think) Many New forums added New tools for mods I am sure there is more these are ones that come to mind. I think it depends which way you want to look at it. We have made mistakes and will probably make more down the road...not as many I hope. But overall, I think we have done some neat things with this community and hope to continue to grow new features and areas of interest. thanks tammy

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I musta bookmarked while Tammy was posting. I just want to say this. Tammy, yes, you have done very neat things with the site. If you could implement good communication between admin and members, there is no doubt this would be the best site around. The bells and whistles don't make a good site though, they enhance it. For example: Amazon.com is one of my online haunts. They have a wishlist, and tons of other features that I find very helpful. But those features wouldn't mean a thing if I could find what I wanted locally. Amazon is impersonal and it's hard to get in touch with a real person. Now perhaps the analogy is wrong, this is a community and not a bookstore, but my point is, I can shop (and do most of the time) at the bookstore down the street. It's doesn't have all the features but if there's a book there I like I'll buy it there first. No wishlist, half the time I order a book, it takes forever to get, but the man that owns it is the nicest guy on the face of the earth I think. And that's why I keep going back. You've lost some really good people here over this past year due to poor communication. No slam, just the honest truth..... you all are probably the nicest people around. It's good that you are listening to your members now and I hope you continue to... because the bells and whustles didn't make this site great, the members did.

Thanks Judith ... well said.

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One of the biggest things the powers that be can do to improve things is actually listen to people. Another is not to automatically assume that just because someone is angry or has a complaint about the site or conduct of admins and mods that they are enemies of the site and trying to bring it down. People who do not care about something do not get angry over it. One of the largest mistakes made in this whole merchant debacle was asking the merchants for their input, receiving a response from an overwhelming majority and then summarily dismissing that feedback and doing what they wanted anyway. I think that is the single largest thing that caused such a controversy and started a large amount of mistrust. If you truly want people's feedback then you MUST listen to it and respond accordingly. If you are simply going to do what you want to do anyway, don't ask for feedback. It's really not much simpler than that. I am glad to see you listening now. Though, I fear, in some cases it may be a matter of too little too late. Once trust is lost, it is difficult to regain. In business, trust is everything.

agree.

That's wonderful to hear. I feel much better about how things may go now, and apologise for my confrontive behavior before.

heh, this reminds me of the postal system. Former employees shootin up the place, lol.

"One of the biggest things the powers that be can do to improve things is actually listen to people. Another is not to automatically assume that just because someone is angry or has a complaint about the site or conduct of admins and mods that they are enemies of the site and trying to bring it down. People who do not care about something do not get angry over it. " Right on, There has been an attitude from the Admin and Mods that because you complain you want to do the site dammage, this is false. As members we have an obligation to speak out to try to improve the site. Someone in a thread said if your not a merchant its not your fight. Merchants are members as well, if there are injustices being done to one member, they are being done to us all. I really do hope admin here starts to listen and take into account what the ramifacations of their actions might be before going off half cocked. It would be refreshing to say the least.

You know why Daz is so popular as a store? Why no-one is running around swearing they'll never buy from there again? Because they 'appear' to care about their customer and vendor base. Appearance is everything. I love the way I'm treated by Daz. If I have a problem I get a nice email expressing concern, and generally a solution straight up. If I have a question, I usually get an email back, expressing interest and usually a reply that helps me. I, and secretheart like to apply these same principles when dealing with customers, merchants and general membership at Poser Pros. Because Daz have 'appeared' to care, it's taught us values we want to continue with in our work. Renderosity has 'appeared' to not give a crap about it's merchants,and it's rippled out into the general community and the waves are being felt now. When everything happened, I left the Renderosity store. I made no annoucement, simply emailed Clint and asked to have my store removed, which he did in a very timely manner. He even expressed regret, which was the first sign of Renderosity caring I'd seen in months. I don't like the implication that because I worked for another site, I could be a potential spy. And I was extremely offended by the assumption that I would steal ideas to profit another site. I loved Renderosity. Would never have considered moving away from Renderosity for anything. Yet the 'appearance' of NOT caring was too strong. I wish none of it had never happened, but it did, and most of us moved on. But apologies which contain excuses don't seem to cut it with me. Perhaps I'm just too tired of being gullible anymore shrug