Thinking about some of the main differences between Poser figres... It occurred to me that a lot of the differences are down to the joints, so I wondered if it would be possible to (for example) copy V3's bones and joint parameters to V2. Sure, V2 is a lower poly figure and you may ask "What's the point of it, Sam?", but would it work? Your opinions/experiences are welcome.

I don't think a direct copy would work, the joints are too different, but you could certainly look at the joints on V3 and compare with V2 and maybe use the comparisons to improve V2's poseability, course then her clothes might not fit and you'd have to do them too ;o)....Steve

Theoretically, yes. I would imagine the problem would be the V2 mesh. Since it is cut differently than V3 posing would look odd. One could adjust them from there but that would pretty much end in the set up for V2.

i was pondering just such a thing. you could do the contour command on v2 and get a "copy" of the body. then, you could go about recutting it to the v3 pattern. then just export as an obj file...use the v3 cr2, hacked, listing your new vicki as whatever you like. not sure it would work, but, i was thinking about trying it if i get really bored. (contour copies the mesh lines, in rhino...not sure what one you'd use in another app.)

I really don't think any of this would work. The problem is that not only are the figures different in the joints, they are different in the mesh around the joints. V3 has more polys in key areas and that allows her skin to act differently than a modified V2 ever would. They're simply different.

I'd call it Vicki 2.5 Okay, realistically from a programmer's standpoint I'd call it Vicki 2 and start calling Vicki 2 Vicki 1.5. Either way -- on the morphs, try this: Follow Bloodsong's Painlessly Easy Clothing Tutorial instructions to get a Base Conformer for your modified Vicki 2.5 figure. Use this BC as a clothing CR2 for Vicki 3. Load up Vicki 3 and the Vicki 2.5 Base Conformer in The Tailor, with the VIcki 2.5 figure as 'The Dress' Copy Vicki 3's Full Body morphs and individual morphs to Vicki 2.5 this way. ALso learn extreme patience in so doing. Use Morph Manager or vim and steal all the targetGeoms from the Base Conformer figure and apply them to the non BC Vicki 2.5 Do the same thing using Vicki 2.0 as the figure and Vicki 2.5 Base Conformer as The Dress. This should give you, in the end, a figure with copies of all morphs, both from Vicki 3 and from Vicki 2 all in one. For the hell of it, copy Mike's morphs too, they might or might not work under the V3 Male Morphs, depends on how well they stack. There's a V2-V3, V3-V2 UVMap converter in the marketplace.

Ratteler, Just playing devil's advocate here, but would it be legal to distribute this figure since it is made from two of DAZ's meshes combined?

heyas; the cutting of the mesh isn't that critical to the performance of the joints. a few rows of polygons on this side or that side of a cut make almost no difference. (except where siblings are involved.) the thing that would mess you up are the sizing and proportions. if the forearm is 2.5 virtual centimeters longer on v3 than v2, then all the hand, finger, and thumb joints are going to be 2.5 virtual centimeters out of place. now, if you want to pop the v2 obj into p5 or ppp's setup room, import v3's 'bones' and tweak them to fit more accurately... then that would work, too. would it improve v2? well, it isn't guaranteed. it could. one of the thins that makes v3 pose a lot better than v2 is the more dense mesh. it just makes everything smoother, and thus better looking when it is bent. the idea of a v3-jointed v2 is not a combination of two meshes. he's only using the jps from v3. well, "only." whether or not those jp settings could be considered copyrighted, and thus not re-distributable, is a thorny one. normally, or i should say, back in the old days, it was considered 'okay' to distribute cr2's. well, then v2 and m2 came along with cr2's with new morphs (that were basically the only thing new on the version 2's), and if you distributed THOSE cr2's, then people with v1/m1 wouldn't need to buy v2/m2, so those cr2's (or at least the morphs) were declared non-distributable. haven't heard any word yet on the jp's of v3 being non-distributable, but they might very well decide to do that. you'd have to ask them. oh, and please remember to turn on the nudity content flag when you post images of unclothed human figures.

Wouldn;t be legal to distribute, pigfish, but it would ber perfectly legal to do for oneself. I believe that any sort of diff file like the ones Maz's thing uses would be legal to use to distribute the differently cut mesh. The morphs from tailor would seemingly not be legal, though DAZ is a little unclear on this as they have a long page on using The Tailor and magnets and such to snag morphs from one figure to another and, rather than saying 'This is legal to distribute, while this isn't' they just say 'Would this be legal to distribute?' over and over. Maybe the question is rhetorical or something (they make it sound that way) but the fact remains they don't specifically say what is and what isn't legal. I find the whole thing a bit confusing because if I were to make an outfit for Vicki that was a superconformer (i.e. had all the same morphs and was designed so the morphs conformed along with the joints) I think it would be legal to distribute, especially if I made the morphs by hand regardless of their similarity to purachasable MTs for Vicki. I don't agree with the idea that anyone has a copyright on the concept of 'big boobs' or 'love handles'. As for the JPs being copyrighted, V2 and M2's aren't protected, as DAZ gives away a free copy of the CR2 to anyone who wants to distribute things using the JPs. The geometry and morphs (which are technically a sort of geometry) is what's protected (along with sold poses, of course). I'd assume that the V3 'blank' figure is of the same idea -- that you can distribute the morphless CR2. However, once you move the joint centres to the right place for the V2 mesh (I don't have V3 so I'm assuming based on Bloodsong's response that V3 has the same 'parts' and doesn't have 'new parts' like an lUpperArm or rBigToe or anything) then those aren't the same JPs anymore anyway, especially if you move the spherical falloff zones the same amount. As to all this talk of bones -- V2 doesn't have any -- I know, I looked inside. She's just hollow. How gothic. B^) (I use P4 vanilla and don't mess with bones. Don't see the point since it's gotten rather easy to me to make posables (thanks to Bloodsong's help) just by settings the JPs and hacking the CR2 when necessary)

Though if there is a freely distributable blank V3 CR2, anyone wanna be nice and distribute it to me so I can see what I can do about making a V2.5?

whether or not those jp settings could be considered copyrighted, and thus not re-distributable, is a thorny one. normally, or i should say, back in the old days, it was considered 'okay' to distribute cr2's where is the v3 eula? you know the readme's. should be in there, but, i can't find in my "readme" directory.

oops....found it. here is what seems important... It is possible to save out the figure as a new character (CR2) with these morphs loaded. Please see the FAQ for more information on this. It is not permissible to distibute these CR2 files.

What people want to do privately is up to them. But one cannot use the V3 files to create and distribute enhancements to V2 or any other figure other than V3. Doing so would devalue V3 and allow people to perhaps gain some of her benefits without purchase. And that just wouldn't be fair. :) This includes mesh, morphs joints and Uv's. Anton

The blank is not shareware dodger. It is for content developers as a benefit to their purchase. You want to play, ya have to pay. :) Please avoid making definate statements without being sure. Thanks.

Hey, Anton... I didn't. I'd assume that the V3 'blank' figure is of the same idea -- that you can distribute the morphless CR2 and if there is a freely distributable blank V3 CR2 were my words B^)

actually, I disagree, I think that a low res version of V3, especially using the V2 lowres mesh would enhance V3, not devalue her. I could sure use a low res version of her here, especially when dealing with secondary characters in a scene. Why did Daz make low res versions of V2 if it was going to devalue V2? :) I'd be happy to ditch V2 low res forever in favour of a V3 version of her. I'll never ditch V3 for a low res version of V3 though. I will just use both of them, when I need them. Can make it where you have to own V3 first, which is easy enough to do with a pcf file (or if Daz brokered it), that's all. I'd even be happy with what Ratteler has made, with just the head morphs. I can break out magnets and 3d programs and do the body morphs I need, for a secondary character occupying the background that part isn't a big deal anyway, so long as the head has its morphs for the necessary expressions. I'd even be happy if Daz brokered it so I could buy it there. :) there's a real need for a quality low res figure for V3. I think, it would make things a lot cheaper for someone that comes in and only wants to use clothing for one character type and sees no point in collecting both V2 stuff and V3 stuff, when all they want is V3 stuff (and V3's jps are superior hands down). Especially if you do animations. Dina V comes with a low res version of her too, for the exact same reasons. anyway, if a low res version is going to be prohibited, I guess I better start converting my V2 lowres body to V3 jps on my own too, so I can finally stop being lazy and waiting around for this character. :) Maybe I'll go the Dina route and keep V3's head (so my characters faces stay the same), and just tack on the lowres body to it. :) (and yeah, I'm a decent uvmapper, so that part, though tedious, isn't beyond my abilities...) I'd much prefer to buy a character like this, though, because I know the work involved. (big hint)

Why do you want a V3 low-res? A 2nd V3 without morphs in a scene is small indeed. Waiting to see when someone will try to figure out exactly how many V3s can be in one file for rendering before killing their machine... :P

I think that people that bought copies of Vicky 2 and 3 can use freely Vicky 2.5. Right now Vicky 3 takes too long to render and there is the issue of clothes compatibility.

oh, V3 is tough on your memory requirements if you have a full scene full of props and textures, trust me. I can't get even two V3 in a scene with props and textures in Poser 4 PP to render, I have to switch to Carrara to render them. I'd rather Daz made a V3 lowres for us, with the V3 high res head (taking the head morphs as usual for V3) with a low res body, in the same way that Dina V has. With injections for the body morphs, etc. That's a perfect world, but I can approximate the perfect world a little bit, given enough time. :) I won't do that nifty morph injection on the body though, I'd just do my own characters morphs on the body and leave it there. As I'd never sell it, I just want to use it. I just want to know if Daz has any intention of doing this, if they don't - I'll go ahead and make it for myself, as I own both V2 low res and V3. Its a good idea for Daz to do a low-res body, as an addon pack for V3. (hint, hint again)

exactly!!! thank you Ratteler!

let me add this... when the figure is fully clothed, the high res details on the body are basically worthless for the most part. I want a high res head on the low res body for these situations, when the body is covered up anyway, but I'm zeroing in closer on the face. :)

I am sorry for any un-answered questions our FAQ sections may have left for some of you. We are working on redoing that entire portion of our site to improve the information, navigation, and just overall visibility of the FAQ. So, please be patient with us, but we are working on it.

As for the discussion herein: We love hearing about things like this openly in the fora. The more that third party developers improve upon and diversify our products, the better. Of course, the issue of distributing certain files is always present and must be dealt with. The guideline for which DAZ files/data may be distributed can be always be found in the answer to this question:

Will the distribution of a file that is based on a DAZ-sold product be useable to those who haven't purchased the original product from which it was created?

If the answer is yes, then the file cannot be distributed legally. Depending on the product, this may include geometry, morphs, joint parameters, and/or UVs. (All of these elements of a product take considerable time, and have considerable value.)

Thanks, any other questions, please send them to sales@daz3d.com

Steve Kondris
DAZ Productions, Inc.

I wouldn't necessarily say that it goes out the window. We are careful what products we release as well. There are many items on our site that are made with installers that check for "Required previous purchase(s)" before they will install just for this very reason. Any time a new product allows someone to benefit from the uses of a different product by including some portion of the "different" product within the new, we make sure that people already have the first/"different" item on their system before they can use the new product, even if sold through the DAZ site.

I think a remorphed recut V2RR body using V3 jps attached to V3's high res head would be of little use to anyone that is interested in using V2. Sure the geometry is the same in the body, but no morphs will work, and the V2 clothing wouldn't fit for the same reasons the clothing won't fit V3 now. And they'd have to buy the head morph injection pack and base figure for V3 first in order to use it... I'd say that's a V3 derived product requiring V3 purchase before use for sure, and derived in a similar way that V3 is derived from V1/2 anyway. Tricks could be used to up resolution a bit in some areas where detail is more necessary for smooth bends, (hands, knees, elbows) which would result in a figure that is wholly incompatible with V1RR or V2RR morphs even if recut, and could solve that problem of being usable as a V2RR for sure. but I have nothing against checking for previously installed V2RR and V3 base with the installer, though, and offering a different pricing for people with her and people without her.

From the discussion in this thread, there have been several uses for such a figure mentioned, and so long as anyone who distributes such modified characters like these also takes the time to make sure that people have Victoria 3 (and/or Victoria 2/1, etc. or whatever figures are being modified) then we are okay. One problem with current technology is that aside from PCF encoding and other similar OBJ encoding app's available, there's not really many other alternatives for encrypting files, at least not outside of DAZ.

One reason we pay a hefty yearly sum to the creators of our installer technology is because they have provided us with tools that allow us to encrypt and lock any portion of any file whatsoever. I'm not aware of any other 3rd party in this community that has access to such a toolset. This is one reason we prefer to have items like this distributed through our own store, we know that we can ensure that people do not have access to these types of products without first having a copy of the necessary "original" products in order for it to even unpak itself.

Bijouchat's comment about such a heavily modified character being offered at different pricing for different people (those with or without Victoria 3) is not completely clear to me. The only way to distribute such a character is to first ensure that the recipient already has the V2RR and V3 base products before they are allowed access to this modified fileset, not just a lower price if they already have them. If people do not have V2RR or V3, then they should not be getting parts of these products from someone other than DAZ at all, no matter what the price. Is that what you meant, bijouchat? I wasn't sure, hopefully this clarifies your statement a bit. Steve Kondris DAZ Productions, Inc.

Hi Steve, I just meant that I don't have a problem with having to own V2RR and V3 products first to get a V3RR character (I do own them both, so that's not an issue for me at all), I am commenting that there is different pricing for upgrade and full packages, and if someone doesn't own V2RR already like I do, they could be presented with a package that includes V2RR, in a similar way that Aiko is sold with Stephanie or without. hope that makes me a bit more clear :) take care, Robin

Ah, yes, okay I see what you're saying now. That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification :D Steve www.daz3d.com