Eeeuuuuuuuuw! And I thought cat snot was gross...bleh ;-P

The problem is (at least for me): extensively morphed bodies are so difficult to clothe. Finding things that conform as much to body type as pose - very hard.

Joey, Beth Enough with the gradeschool level namecalling alright? hands on hips Don't you make me turn the thread around! Lyrra

Now, I don't think I actually called anyone any names; but I'll refrain from any more games. :)

I'm really impressed with what I have seen of the Roxanne pack and think I'll go buy it, thanks all for the enlightenment. :) Catlin

1. Joerg - I'm not reacting specifically to your comments. I'm ranting too, lol... against any kind of taste elitist tendencies. Which I saw lots of in this thread. 2. You wrote: "Apart from that, I think that this representation of women is somewhat degrading, as we all know, what that pouty look and those huge lips are suggesting." Absolutely, it is obvious, and perfectly OK by me. I don't see how depicting a woman as sexy is degrading?? I don't get it. Is it degrading to depict a man as sexy, whatever your view of sexy men might be? Why is sexy or beautiful or stuff like that degrading to women?? On the other hand, saying that women are worth less than men (as many cultures, many individuals and even a number of religions do!!!) is degrading. But being inspired by beauty is not degrading in any way. Whatever your view of beauty or sexiness might be. Pouty lips or not. Being a guy, I find women endlessly inspiring to look at. Also to live with, be friends with, work with, be the father of (I have 2 daughters), whatever. The two things are not exclusive of each other in any way. A woman can be incredibly gorgeous and extremely intelligent and highly competent and have impeccable taste and be a perfect mother and be fantastic in bed etc etc all at the same time. She doesn't go stupid just because she looks good, neither in 3D images, photos or real life. (Lord forbid I should meet this perfect woman, it'll be same the day I die, lol) (end of rant) :] Fish

It's always amusing to read the latest installment in this soap opera. AT least Joerg was considerate enough to label his post as a rant - one person expressing their personal vexation. Why these are necessary, I don't know. They don't accomplish anything other than perhaps momentary personal relief. Certainly, any construction discussion inevitably degenerates into subtle (or not so subtle) sniping and infighting. The bottom line, that everyone will do what pleases them despite other's opinions always gets lost. The very people who champion individuality seem frustrated when a majority of individuals happen to find a common niche they're comfortable with. Yes, Poser is capable of (as Roxanne ably demonstrates) depicting a variety of facial characteristics. The fact that many people choose one particular type is simply a reflection of a standard of beauty which seems to be dominant at this particular time and place. If the majority of Poser users were in Kenya or if this were the 15th century, I imagine that standard would be different. There always seem to be two underlying feelings here. One, is the 'Throw off your artistic shackles,' cry for more imagination and variety argument. While this may be laudable, it's proponents can somehow never seem to see how those on the receiving end may perceive just a bit of condescension in the call, even if that is not the intention. Nevertheless, the response will always be 'Hey, we like what we're doing, so leave us alone.' Sadly, I see far fewer threads on 'Hey, here's how to add variety to your faces, poses, etc. than complaints. Yes, the material may be out there but rather than pointing it out or giving encouragement, it seems easier to express dismay and offended sensibility. It would be nice to think that art would be one final bastion free of what seems at times to be almost a kind of eugenics movement to clean out the 'defective' gene pool. Not in this life, I suppose. The second ides seems to be based on artistic ( philosophical?) differences on the depiction of women, a touchy subject at best. Whether it's naked Vicky in a temple, large breasts or now, pouty 'seductive' lips and upper lips as surrogates for nether lips, there is this subtext about sexuality, sexism and exploitation. My guess is that women are about as well represented among Poser users as any application, certainly, there is no lack of them here. Still, the majority of users are probably men. Whether that accounts for the popularity of Vicky vs. Mike, I don't know. I'm sure it's not the only factor. Nor, do I think it's the only factor in the popularity of nude Vicky, though it may be a major one. Now certainly, people have differing thresholds for what they consider erotic, seductive, sexist or downright pornographic. One person sees bee stung lips, another sees a vagina and all of a sudden, we're off into where someone's head is at. Am I the only one who sees all this as just a little bit silly - (no offence to those holding either view)? Whether it's different views of art and sexuality or worthless hacks and rampant adolescent hormones (and all of these have been stated or implied at various times), does it really matter? Beyond the occasional rant, is this really important to anyone's sanity or well being? If it is, I would humbly suggest turning the computer off, taking a walk or whatever it takes to get a little perspective. I know that annoyances like war, economics or anything else in the real world shouldn't intrude on the refuge Renderosity and Poser offer, but neither should what people choose to do with 50 bucks worth of polygons rise to the level (sometimes) restrained acrimony that it does with unfortunate regularity. End of my perpetual response to the perpetual controversy. Now, I will go and try my new idea (inspired here) for rotating Traveler's genital prop 90 degrees and parenting it to Vicky's face.

If you still use Posette and the Poser guy, Duane Moody has a really good series of freestuff face morphs for both. Many different facial types, ages, characteristics, etc. A search in Freestuff under "Duane" brings them up.

Barb: Clothing morphed bodies always frustrated me too, since I don't do a lot of nude renders. I found that the Tailor works very well to alter conforming clothing, but it's not a free item and it takes a little time to get the hang of it. However, some of the body character packs come with clothing morph fittings nowadays, or have some clothes-fits available as free items (Beth has files that will fit the RDNA Separates and Anton's Olympians to the Roxanne bodies as freebies.)

lmckenzie - well said. :] Fish

SEX AND INSURANCE Sadie and Esther, two elderly widows, are sitting, people-watching, in a Catskill hotel lobby. "You know," says Sadie, "I've been reading this 'Sex and Marriage' book and all they talk about is mutual orgasm. Mutual orgasm here, mutual orgasm there, that's all they talk about. Tell me, Esther, when your husband was alive, did you two ever have mutual orgasm?" "No," says Esther, "I think we had State Farm."

Blah blah yadda yadda yadda. Don't like it? Don't look. Or better yet, God forbid, leave some constructive criticism. That'll have more impact on what goes on than yet another rant against the evils of the nudevickiewithaswordinatemple. Just my 2cents Jon

And to those who find the anti comments so offensive, the same advice holds. Don't like it? Then please dont read it. You say that anyone who writes an untoward statement is being condescending and belittling? Head back to that mirror, take a long look, and then post again. You dont feel you need to apologize for your stance? Neither do I. So go roll your eyes and shrug your shoulders and sigh in frustration at someone else.

Let me be clear that I have no problem with people expressing their various tastes; and I apologize to anyone who may have taken my posts otherwise. I have no problem with the person who expressed dislike for my product. I simply think he could have expressed his dislike more eloquently and without false assumptions about why I created the face. Beth

Whether it be early man's voluptous goddess, the boyish 20's, the full-figured 40, the skinny 60's, the hard bodied 80's or the full lipped 90's some woman (or man) somewhere can say " that's not a real woman's body".

Pin-up art is about ideals, perfection, not about reality. I'm not a big fan of the full lipped look myself. But that's the standard of beauty that's popular right now.

Just another 2 cents.

Jon

yea yea I know waaaay to much time on my hands. lol