We need to resolve this issue. Can we discuss this and do away with the purist vs importer posts in different threads? Here is a chance for both sides to talk and understand, so we can go back to one group, Bryce users. Leave the flamethrowers and molotov cocktails at home too, once people start yelling and screaming, then its hard for folks to learn anything through the noise. Lets be civil about this. Don't really see watercolor pencil users fighting watercolor brush users so whats the problem here? Looking at pictures, don't really care that its done all in Bryce or imported. More interested in how the whole picture looks. Agree with the purists idea of learning all of what Bryce has to offer. Getting in there and using every feature when useful. On the other hand if I have something that makes the job go faster, will use that whether its Truespace or Photoshop. For me as an artist the end result is more important than what used to get there.

Well, based on what I just posted as my idea for the Macrh challenge...I suppose I come down in the importer camp. I completely enjoyed the challenge of using nothing but Byrce last month though. For me the whole things hangs on...what tools can I use to get the idea out of my head and on the screen. Bryce allows me to import so I have to believe those who created it felt the same way.

I like to make everything in a scene myself. I amost never use anything 'straight out of the box'. I always at least tweak a little. I think that most purists put more time in making their scenes. But some importers take that time to tweak the lighting and reflections to perfection. I don't think importers are less good or artistic, but sometimes I see people building their scenes from ready-made stuff like it was a bit of lego from the toybox. Importers have to have a nicer image for me to get teh same respect as a purist. Downloading and importing the perfect models needs the perfect textures too, while a very good tyr at modelling something really complex might seem just as good to me. But there are some really good importers and really good purists around. It hard to choose what's the best approach.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again here because it is appropriate. If you can bring it into Bryce and get it to work in a render, it IS Bryce. If you have to composite it in a paint program it ISN'T Bryce. There isn't anything inherently wrong with doing it if you get the results you want, the image is ALL. I composite and draw in Photoshop Elements all the time. But in the Bryce Forum Monthly Challenges, you have to go along with the winner's rules, or you can't play. :^)

my 2 cents... {begin soapbox} it's going to be impossible to please everyone all the time. Last summer and fall we had a long string of challenges that were open to all forms of imports and post-work. After a while, people started asking for an all-Bryce challenge. Then, when winners start choosing all-Bryce challenges, others start complaining. Like I've said here before, IMHO, these challenges are all supposed to be for fun and to help increase everyone's understanding of the program. There is no 'best technique' for creating 'your' art. Use whatever technique you feel the most comfortable with and whatever you need to use to create the art that is inside your head. These challenges shouldn't dictate your theories on art and how you create images... they should, however, inspire folks to explore the limits of the program and themselves. If the previous month's winner decides that he/she needs to improve their technique in a certain area, then, by all means, that should be the target of the following month's challenge. That became their prerogative when the forum voted them the winner. And if you don't feel like you need or want to create an image following that month's rules.... then don't. It's not mandatory, and it's not the end of the world to miss a month... Just a friendly, formal, CHALLENGE amongst fellow artists/hobbyists. If you don't like the rules of that months challenge, then issue yourself (and others?) another, less formal one, concentrating on what you would like to work on. That's what the Challenge Arena Forum is for, but I've never known anyone in this forum who didn't appreciate a good challenge every now and then. The main thing, though, is to make ART...and have fun doing it. {end soapbox}

I think tjohn might have the crux of the issue here...from what I gather the "final" render is what is you get when bryce is done doing it's thing, so no matter what you did to it, if it's rendered and left alone, save for signatures and size reduction, then it's a bryce image..or movie. Can't we all just get along lol :) What I personally notice most about all programs is the final result...Vue looks like Vue..Bryce looks like Bryce...Terragen looks like Terragen... etc...I like the looks of Bryce's final results...Don't care for the poser look and the other programs like 3d max and lightwave have there look and feel too...Mozart or Bach...Both Excellent :) but different....like the Karate Kid...um different but same...now go find the balance Daniel son bahahahahaha :)

{resume soapbox} tjohn summed it up nicely there... there is only one thing that we 'compete' for in these monthly challenges, and that is the privelage/honor/burden of choosing the rules/topic for the following month's challenge. (and it is a burden... trying to come up with something that is fresh and elicits the fewest complaints from the rest of the forum) Let's try not to bring down the monthly winners by complaining because we don't like their choice of a topic or restrictions... we, as a forum, voted for them and thereby agreed to accept whatever challenge they may set forth. :) {end soapbox, really this time}

lol... Robnobs... taking the Rodney King/Mr. Myogi approach to forum debate. 8D

I'm in the strage position to agree both with tjohn and Rayraz. It's only since I'm in Renderosity that I try to do everything in Bryce... and I use often Bryce presets (materials and objects), but never fail to tweak them just that little tiny bit... I'm not a purist. I am an enthusiast 3D art hobbyist and viewer, and if an image pleases my eye when I see it, then for me it's fine. For my, Bryce is a tool, a tool that I love, but a tool to achieve what I want (or, more often, what I can LOL). Sometimes I did heavy postwork on my images, sometimes I left them as they come after the render-century, sometimes I import models that I couldn't do myself, sometimes I try like made to make them in Bryce... whatever suits best what I have in mind. And I appreciate at the same level a "pure Bryce" or a "imported then Bryce-rendered then postworked" image. Just my 2 eurocents. :-) Stefano

made = mad ;.!

now if you make your own imports, is that still as pure? I love the materials I can use in Bryce (I ought to, considering how many of the $%^ things I've downloaded..;) still getting a handle on lighting, etc. As far as I remember, the only import I have brought in is a guitar from Odeathoflife (but heaven knows I get my mileage out of it..;)
It's ok to specialize with one program, and if it floats yer boat, you can do anything you want. I don't think there's a 'right or wrong way' to make a good picture. You could probably work on a car engine with just a Swiss army knife and feel good about that, but I'd want the socket wrenches, testers, screwdrivers along to make things easier. I think it's more important to make good art. I feel guilty using Doga, 'cause it's so easy, but not guilty enough to stop using it..;)
As the only one in the Free World who doesn't have Photoshop, I don't do much postworking..;) The most important thing is, have you made a good picture?

In the real world, except for stealing other peoples work, anything goes. Doesn't matter what you use to make the image, or how you go about it, the ONLY thing that matters is what the final result looks like, and if you make your deadline. Now, in the world of the monthly Challenge, winners rules goes, period. Another point of having a pure Bryce challenge, was to keep someone from downloading a really cool mesh from the internet and winning with it over people who did not do that. Gather `round kids UncleSmith will spin this tale once more; So...one of the first times this Pure Bryce thing popped up was because of me...the only Monthly Challenge I ever won was when I imported a Poser skeleton into Bryce, added some fog, and rendered away to winning. Members complained that my pic wasn't really Bryce, I kinda ageed...so I vowed to make my next entry Pure Bryce. I did, and learned more about Bryce that next month, than I ever had. Here endeth the cheesy story... Following pure Bryce is THE best way to learn the program and yourself to it's fullest, period. And, BTW, Pure Bryce actually means just that, NO imports of ANY kind; no opening of anything, no altitude renders used as terrains, no pic imports, no texture imports, no importing of models you yourself made in another program...nothing. You open Byrce, you work, you close Bryce. It's hard, not everybody can do it. Hence the word, Pure. Now, back to the real world. One more point; If someone tells you there are right and wrong ways to go about creating art...get away from them. (IMHO) AgentSmith

Did you win your contest because it looked better because you had better composition, lighting or etc or did the skeleton model alone blow the competition away? Being a Bryce purist will get you to gurudom faster but importing your own models and working and learning how to texture map them will get you there too albeit at a slower pace. Not like you import the model and it sits there, still gotta work with it. Have no complaint about pure challenges as long as there is a balance. > Another point of having a pure Bryce challenge, was to keep someone from downloading a really cool mesh from the internet and winning with it over people who did not do that < If this had been a regular Bryce challenge would the "way cool" mesh been a guarantee of victory? Are importers stacking the deck or cheating? Is there supposed to be a level field? Not trying to be a pain but maybe these questions should be asked.

I'm not sure if were talking "just" about the monthly challenge or/and wether an image belongs in the bryce art gallery or not...but here's my brainflow on it.. When I posted my first image here a few months back some people mentioned that it didnt belong in the bryce gallery because I model my meshes in cinema4D and did some post in photoshop. Seems postwork is a mortal sin around rendero..importing stuff is less bad but you are way more brilliant if u can do anything good with just Bryce. For a Brycebased challenge I'd say bow to the king that wins..on the matter of art..an opinion about artwork should not be based on the choosen path to the final result. I think the problem in this might be the fact that rendero does not have one gallery for 3D artists but more or less a gallery per application..wich is cool..but I actually spend time thinking where to upload the image..bryce gallery?..cinema4D?...2D?...mixed medium? I like to do some sort of realism in my work..and although I would be brilliant if I made a 4Roses label within bryce I would still scan the label and import it... A)I want realism B)it is WAY faster. My last work took over 16 long hours to render in Bryce due to the DOF and the amount of TIR/raytrace I used on the glass..rendered...making a 2D "photo" of a 3D scene..Bryce took the pic. Like tjohn said..if its rendered in Bryce it IS Bryce. If there was a photoshop-postwork gallery poser could kiss their nr1 seat goodbye. -M-

Personally, I don't have any problem with people who make something in carrara and import it to bryce. I have a problem with people who enter the challenge with poser this and that, and some crappy 3dCafe models they imported + some other models etc. Granted my lighting pictures use imported models, but I would never use something like that in a contest or anything I call "my work" it was merely to play with lighting on a highly detailed piece. It only becomes a problem when the image is only good because of the imported models (not made by that person)... This is indeed a problem.

ok, enuff with the sensible talking:

Let the flaming begin!!

When I make my pictures, any models I make are imported into Bryce and they are now Bryce objects. The final render is a Bryce render and the picture gets uploaded to the Bryce gallery, not Truespace, Photoshop or mixed media.

hadn't considered the challenge, it's just challenge enough for me to get the flinkin' thing to look halfway like what I see in my mind's eye..;)

I use imports in some of my renders. I have no problem with artists that post Bryce renders that used imported objects into the gallery.

Imports that aren't created by the artist should not be allowed in monthly challenge. You can't properly credit the artist that created them. I have no problem if someone creates a model and imports it into Bryce for a challenge entry.

You can credit the creator when you enter the piece. When it is viewed their is currently no provision to let voters know you are using someone else's work. I personally believe this is an important factor in appraising a piece for the purposes of voting.

Peace
B

I am new to these here forums ;-) but have used Bryce for about 4 years. I used to be an importer (meaning I used to borrow other's models because I did not know how to model them myself and used to think it was impossible to do in Bryce). In the last year or so, I have started doing all my own Bryce modeling. I really enjoy it and find it a fascinating challenge. I also recently started "real" 3d moedling (by this I mean 3dmax and what not). I have to say, I personally like modeling in Bryce because fewer people can or want to model in Bryce. Im not familiar with the contests you guys are talking about, but I personally think pure Bryce art should be entirely modeled and rendered in Bryce. Just my lil opinion if anyone cares :-)

There's an interesting angle...Bryce art... As much as I love Bryce it does have its limits..thats why we would like to see a Bryce 6 in the near future..if it was perfect why bother.

Bryce's real limitations are those of the user. You can create nearly anything with such a simple tool as many people dismiss it as a "newbie" program. If you are de-noting the fact that you can create art in Bryce, I believe you can create art in anything. I often have friendly competitions with my classmates at college to see who can model a certain object fastest and have it be judged to see whos is best. I have won on several occasions with just using Bryce whereas they used Lightwave and 3dmax. So I wouldn't really call it a limited program, its got a lot to offer...arg, I digress, I dont want to get too off topic (im sure I already have)

I have to agree 100% with what AgentSmith and FWTempest have said. If you are creating art for yourself then use whatever you want and whatever tools you need to achieve your goal. For the challenge it should be just that, a challenge. It's not a contest against our fellow Brycers but a contest with yourself and Bryce, to push your skills and the potential of the program.

And thus are the world's religions created... Religions are a tool to control the masses! (smiles) Nah, I don't really believe any of that crap, just thought I'd throw it out there. I'm just happy I got my comma problem under control!

My bit: If you make it yourself, use it, display it sell it. If you dowloaded it, you are only hurting yourself. It is soo easy to see something resembling what you wanted and download it and stick it in. Not only are you maybe upsetting purists, but you are completely denyung yourself of artistic realization. If for example you wanted to make a still life with a rose. You look around a bit but let's say you only find a tulip. Instead of making the rose, you plop the tulip in and now all it is is "kind of" what you wanted...you all know that feeling. Nothing you didn't make will be artistic..it is that simple. An downloaded import is an "excuse" (i hate to say it that way) not to fully develop your creative proccess. Do you think Van Gogh became famous by copying another artists' brush stroke and instead of developing his own, decided that to copy the other artist would be "good enough" for now? Art is good art when it looks on "paper" how it looked in your mind. Again, sorry to offend anyone, but using a downloaded model you did not make is well, lazy. It makes me mad that you are not realizing your visions. Never settle for second best. YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN TRUELY REPRESENT YOUR THOUGHTS! DO NOT TRY AND SILENCE YOUR MIND BY SETTLING FOR A DONWLOAD! WE ARE HEAR TO HELP YOU!!!! LET US! YOU CAN DO IT!

on a different note....if you are just doing a test and you would not consider it "artistic," then downloads are ok. There is a different between a technical achievment and an artistic acheivement. When you are technical, you go in to get a certain result. When you are artistic, you go in to get a feeling. You will not get a feeling by not using yout own stuff...but you can get a result.

Doesn't really matter all to much to me...To Each His Own Way!

92 minutes of applause to allengraph! :-)

=-))

Just have to say this: To me a purist is someone making everything him/herself. This can include modelling in one app and importing and rendering in the other. An importer is someone who is primarily using presets or models/textures/lighting settings etc. made by others. But there are way's in between. For instance, AgentSmith sometimes uses some downloaded models, but he makes the textures and lighting himself. The result is really beautifull art. Even when the model wasn't made by him. (This doesn't mean that I say AS doesn't model anything, because he is a very good modeller.)

In the end, I suppose it depends what you're here for. If you're here for art, then pre-work, post-work, and imports are all fair game. If you're here for the software, then 'purity' is going to be more of an issue. Personally, I'm here for the art so I say to hell with this spurious 'purity'. Like every other medium on the planet, Bryce has limitations. To say that we should all work within them is to say that we should all make limited art. If what I want to show isn't available in Bryce, of course I'm going to use something else. Max, I have to say that I totally disagree with your post 26. You will not get a feeling by not using your own stuff...but you can get a result. That might be true of you but it isn't of me. It's not a general rule: some of us are much less concerned about those technal issues. I care about technical issues only in so far as they help me make the image I want to make. There's only one picture in my gallery where I've used someone else's object: Vincent71's lightbulb in my picture "One: Numbers Matter". I don't agree that the image has any less artistic validity because it contains someone else's mesh. The point of the image isn't who made the lightbulb, it's what the lightbulb conveys, and that message is entirely down to me. Having said all that, I do believe there's a value in the restrictions that inform the monthly challenges. They're a point of experimentation, as are all the attempts at faking radiosity/HDRI etc. They push against the boundaries of technique, which helps us all. I don't believe, though, that it's reasonable to view it as more than that; a kind of on-going skills workshop. The point should be that we then take those skills away and combine them with others. There's virtue in pushing your abilities with Bryce as far as you can. There's no virtue in insisting that that's all there is.

As with any social issues... Noble Cause. If your cause is to "gank" other people's meshes, then not only are you lazy, you suck. Don't post that stuff, show it to your friends. In a small world here of 3D artists, if you work with other peoples' stuff than you should expect to come under fire by people making their own stuff. Although, I agree that technical works are just that, and outside of such skepticisms... Then, we get to OCDDOUG, who, in my opinion, is one of the best Brycer's out there, although never a purist! And I would never slam his style, original and thoroughly beautiful! I think he tweaks a bit on other peoples' stuff, but he ALWAYS makes sure to call anything he uses as THEIRS in his works, which is exactly the level we should all be operating on. I use him as my personal example, when I have doubts about what to consider "my" works. If we all did watercolors, and got annoyed with people that used 40# sketch paper vs. 80#, then we would surely be considered fickle. How is this different? I love you guys anyways, and consider you all my fellow artists to the end.

My viewpoint: I am not a purist. I am a virtual photographer. I take pictures of places that never were! I have the skills to make the chair that the model sits on, but if someone can make one and graciously allows me to use it, then I will. If it is close to what I need but not quite, I will modify it using my skills as I need. A case in point, witness my use of Groingrinders chinese junk or Rochrs engines. (I really do appreciate these, gentlemen!) I will also post process my work. It is a point of pride to wherever and however, eliminate flaws and errors in my images. Just because I dodge/burn, crop, etc. in the real dark room, do I need to post my images in a darkroom forum because they are no longer pure photographs - Bah! I use Poser to create and position my models and there are certain flaws in the poser musculature and joint movement that need fixing. I have tried to do so in poser but I have only succeeded in destroying my work and my joy in creating it. I use Bryce to create the scene in my virtual world and to take the photograph. I use PhotoPaint to darkroom the image and fix any flaws as noted above. I also use it in to composite several layers of successive Bryce renders. Some of these it may be argued, could have been done in Bryce, but do you walk all the way around the world to go from the front door of your house to the back in the interest of purity, or do you just go through the house? Dont get me wrong, I can understand those who would. I can also learn from them, but it is not something I have the time to do regularly. Perhaps I should thus post to mixed media but that just feels wrong to me. Bryce IS my camera. It IS what allows me to get into the visions in my head and bring them out for all to see. Poser cant do this, PhotoPaint cant do this, only Bryce. Everything else is just a tool. These are my opinions and are NOT intended as a criticism of any individual. Richard

Playing Devil's Advocate for a sec..sometimes, the 'limitations' you get from just using the one program can force you to be creative in ways that imports (wherever they're from) don't lead you to.
I've been cheatin' like a sumbich with Doga L, but once I've got the model (well, I assembled it..;) in, I spend a lot more time working with lighting, textures (the more I get, the pickier I get..go figure)..I spend more time trying things in Bryce than ever I do in making the model in the first place. I've created a few things in Bryce, but since you can't export Booleans, they're by nature 1-shot deals.
I still think the end result is what counts. Somewhere, there's some painter deriding all the other painters who don't handcraft their brushes..that way madness lies..to those who don't know all our little 'secrets', they see a good picture. It's personal preference, work the way that most pleases you.

After reading through this last dozen or so posts, it seems we run the gamut from purist to anything goes. As we should. Can you imagine what it would be like to come here and have everyone agree with you about everything? The Stepford Forum. Creepy. Differences are good. We artists have always seen ourselves as existing outside the norm...we see things other people don't see, hear things other people don't hear. That's what makes us creative. It's good that some of us are Bryce purists at heart. And none of those purists are puritanical, not in my opinion. I don't think any of them would suggest that those of us who love to import our objects and have problems making them ourselves should stop doing so if it allows us to realize our artistic visions. But sometimes it can sound like that if a person says something like, "I don't think it's pure Bryce if you import." Maybe it's the word "pure" that is at fault here. No one wants to think their work is impure. But it's just semantics. Art is all about freedom. We all just have our separate paths to get to that freedom. But the Challenges are different: they're all about rules. If you like the game and want to play, then you have to try to like the rules, too. :^) Tjohn

well said.

we see things other people don't see, hear things other people don't hear. < My new meds have helped to reduce that (joke).

BTW, tjohn, are you maybe quoting that wonderful Ira Levin's novel "The Stepford Wives"? Man, how much I loved to read it! :-) Stefano

It took many years to get the artistic community, many purists at heart, to agree that photography was indeed an art form and to accept it as such. The same argument occurred when computer, digitized art began to appear. I remember reading several articles on the subject. Finally, after some deliberation, it was generally accepted and continues to be accepted into the art world for many are still unconvinced. Now that it has been agreed that photography has been accepted as art, just how does the photographer build his/her scene? Depending on their subject matter, they barrow from nature, the environment and from humankind. He sets up his camera on the beach overlooking the incoming surf, theres a pier walk to the right, seagulls silhouetted against the darkening sky and in the foreground theres a beach chair. He snaps his picture and it gets accepted to be exhibited as part of a collection in a museum. How much did the photographer contribute to his composition? He did not provide the seagulls, pier or beach chair, indeed, the beach and the surf either, these items all came from elsewhere. The photographer does not build the beach chair, he uses one that has already been built by someone else. He does not build the pier, that too was built by someone else. He obviously didnt create the beach, the surf or the seagulls. This analogy plays itself over and over in countless photographic images all over the world in different scenarios and theyre all still considered art. It is the personal art of that particular photographer. No one can say otherwise. There are Brycers that are very adept, skilled and talented enough to take the time required to build their own models. Some model only for themselves, others model and place their models up for free so that others in the 3D community can use them as well. While other Brycers are not as well endowed with the skill, talent and patience that is required to model a half decent, workable model, so they do as the photographer does, arranges his models, that have come from all over to help them compose the images they see in their minds. And like with the photographer, I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. I still consider it art. The only thing reserved is that proper credit be given and that is only right. All art requires tools. Tools that are specific to do a particular task. Some can do several tasks, some better than others but none can do all tasks equally well. We have our pencils, our brushes, our chalks, our pastels, our clay, our knives, our air brushes, our cameras, our oils, our acrylics, our water paints, our films and so on but we still dont have one tool that can do the work that is specific to all these tools. So we accept the fact that our tools are limited to their specific tasks. Yes, we may, on occasion, through our ingenuity be able to push the envelope just a bit to have a specific tool do something that it wasnt designed for. But how far can that be taken? Will it come to the point where well use a rubber band to replace a tire? In the same vain, Bryce too has it limitations just like all software. Some choose not to see it and would rather devise some other, time consuming way to try and accomplish their goals . Others see it and reach for the alternative. They will reach for the tool that was designed to do the job in a timely way to help them achieve the image they envision in their minds. If you ask me, I would say that the real Bryce purist should go as far as not clicking the create terrain button, but build their own using the primitives. Not use the tree lab to create their trees but create their own trees using metaballs. That they create their own rocks and anything else that Bryce creates for them. So in essence, if you asked me, I see no purists. I see here only artists doing what they love most, to create and be creative.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=186538&Start=19&Artist=EricofSD&ByArtist=Yes

I just have to say that the first three or four years I used Bryce I was a purist and it really did help me learn the program. Now I'm thinking that landscapes really do need people and archetecture and other object in them from time to time. So I've been learning Poser for the last 10 months now. In time, it would be great to build some complex and integrated scenes. There's much more to learn again with matching the pose in poser to the scene in Bryce since Bryce only imports the final fixed position. Its a bit tough to get it all right and requires several tries before its accurate. The link above is one of my early attempts at integration.

hi all in the early days of bryce, you pretty much HAD to be a purist because it didnt support a lot of imported formats. OBJ import was perhaps its biggest improvement in all this time since it handles the textures well. But in the early days, you could only import dxf and that is unmapped and untextured. So if you wanted a cool import, you could get it..but the texture would almost always look like crapola. :P Debbie was a purist. Actually, she was perhaps one of the hard core purists. She said that if she couldnt do it in bryce, then she didnt need it anyhow. I can only think of a couple images where she actually imported things...most of the time it was straight bryce (even if it tool a frickin month to render) She actually would take playful shots at people for importing models. She wouldnt even touch up an image in any photo editor. I, on the other hand, am not as hard core. If you can get it done by making the model somewhere else, then I see no need to make it in Bryce. If you can find a model that suits your purposes, then there is no need to re-invent the wheel and make it again. Anyhow, I think that you would find if Bryce didnt import anything but DXF models, that there would be a lot more purists, but then again it would have fewer users. (Of course, even if it has a lot of faithful users...then no one can stop bad business decisions from screwing the hell out of it) put me in the, if you like it, then do it category. :) BT

Stephano: Yep, that's the Stepford I had in mind.

I think my earlier post was a bit misunderstood. I did not mean that downloaded meshes were bad. I meant that they hindered your artistic development. Making your own is fine, as you develop yourself. Of course if you are just starting out then finding a download is ok, but shortly after you should start learning how to go about making a similar model. I just thought i'd condense it so i wouldn;t be taken the wrong way. -Max

Max, I'm afraid I will have to disagree over your assertion about artistic development. I suspect that you are confusing technique skill development with the evolution of the formulation and expression of vision which to me signifies artistic development. To me, techique and media are secondary considerations; important, yes, but secondary.

Artistic skills are something most beginning bryce artists still need to develop. Therefore they will be easily satisfied with a downloaded model that fit's their basic idea for a scene. However as Max said it's important to develop your technical skills as soon as possible, because as you make more images more ofen your artistic feel will start to develop. As you make more images you grow in visualizing what you want. At a certain point you will be able to create a crystal-clear image in your mind of what you want to make and chances are that downloaded models won't be enough to recreate that exact mental image. Some people can live with the next best thing, but it does give you another feeling if you can recreate exactly what you originally wanted. And then the skill of a purist comes in handy. It depends on the personality of the artist wich of the two is most satisfying.

Satisfaction, hah! - if I don't make images my head will explode! (grin) (I only joke about my skull being a vacuum containment device.)

BTW Ray, good points.

Max said: I did not mean that downloaded meshes were bad. I meant that they hindered your artistic development. Yes and no, Max. That's certainly true if your artistic development includes modelling, but not everyone's does. That's only one of the roads that using Bryce opens up - there are plenty more. My modelling skills, for example, stink. When I need to model (and I find modelling a chore), I use terrains and lattices because I can make those in Photoshop, where I'm happier. Add to that the fact that Bryce isn't a modelling app to begin with (no true Boolean - aaaarrrgghhhh!!!), I have no incentive whatever to try. From my own point of view, spending scarce time modelling is what would hinder my artistic development.