A lot of debate has been surfacing through the Community about the new Online Store, people feel threatened by it's appearance and think we are taking a nose dive into Commercialism and have turned into a huge site of "Capitalist Pigs"... I have seen some of the Regulars (meaning the people that post allot) divided on this issue, I have even heard from people with whom I HAVE NEVER seen post or have contributed anything but complaints bitching about the store... People are worried about losing their freestuff, while some people just need something to bitch about just for the sake of bitching, while others see this as a way to further create a gulf between the sites and the Community who use them. I let people post their opinions here freely, I let them discuss their rage or concerns without censoring them, even if it deals with me and very rarely do I impart upon them or anyone my thoughts on the matter "publicly"...except for now. So if you don't want the skinny on my feelings regarding the direction of this forum, if you don't want to know my thoughts regarding the new online store, if you don't want to know ANY of my feelings, or risk being offended... then you better not read on...

We have been running this web site for six months now. Six very LONG and TIRING months! In that time I have had to deal with allot of the daily headaches of running a very busy web forum that continues to grow in leaps and bounds. I would not have been able to do so without the help of the other Admin and Moderators here or without the help of my best friend and business partner Ed Arseneault. Running this web site has become a FULL TIME job for Ed and myself, we put in 17 + hours a day here, working hard so that you people have a place to come to, to interact, to share or to better your skills. We took something that was struggling and breathed NEW LIFE into it, made it bigger, better, not for ourselves but for YOU. When you needed something employeed in the software, along with Roy's (Fur's) help we saw to it that it was installed, changed or repaired. And we have done this all for FREE... because of our desire to bring this Community back together, to make it larger and to let it flourish. NONE of us have been paid for this. We DON'T get paid to do this. The only money we got from this place was $1,500.00 from LIPSinc who was nice enough to pay to have their banner put up on this site! We don't get paid from MetaCreations, Zygote, Kinetix, EdgeNet, BurstNet or any other company. We don't get SHIT from this place, except BILLS! It costs this Forum, just this ONE, this doesn't include Renderotica, a total of $1,200.00 a month or more to keep this site UP and on the Internet for YOU to come to. I don't have a job, Ed doesn't have a job, this forum has BECOME our FULL TIME job!! We have been paying our bills from our Life's Savings and 401k Plans cashed in, EdgeNet has also been absorbing the costs to keep this place here for YOU! A new server for Renderotica has been added to speed things up on both sites, which is costing us ANOTHER $1,200 a month!! WE HAVE NEVER ASKED ANYTHING FROM YOU, but to keep coming here, to keep sharing and to keep being a family, to share with us your thoughts on how to make this place better. THAT'S ALL!!! When we put up banner advertisements up on Renderotica to try and make money to help cover our costs, total money made from that STUPID idea... $79.00 in TWO MONTHS!!!!! Is Renderosity/Renderotica successful? Yes... but only for the USERS of it, not for the people that RUN it! And have any of us complained or sobbed about it to you? NO!! For the last FREAKING WEEK I have come to HATE this SITE! We work and work to try and make it better and all we have heard is a few "HEY, GOOD WORK" from a specific few (you know who you are and THANK YOU for it!!), to the hundred and fifty e-mail a day that I JUST GET, that doesn't count what Ed, Roy, Traveler and the others get, filled with whinning and complaints about this NEW STORE or anything that we try to do to make this Community better!! That doesn't include the people that try to hack into the Forum and stir up trouble here (you know who you are)! I aint asking you to kiss our asses, bow down and worship us and tell us "how great we are". I aint into having my ass shined or spit polished and I sure as fuck wouldn't want to take long hot showers till the wee morning hours with you... okay, well, maybe with some of you I would...ahem.... BUT, what I am asking from many of you to STOP and think for a moment the fucking work and costs that is involved with running this site for you.

The Renderosity Online Store was the best solution that we have had to the problem for the COST OF OPPERATION. A way to, not re-coup, but lessen the money that is draining Ed's, EdgeNet's and my bank account. That the artists that helps support the online store are HELPING to insure that this forum STAYS here, so that you CAN get your FREE STUFF which you find so important, not the fact that you have other friends here, or god forbid, support the artist's who's products that you use, but for your precious FREE STUFF. So here is your option... Accept the store, you don't have to shop there if you don't want to, but stop bitching about it, because IT IS STAYING, or this site goes bye bye because I can no longer legally justify spending $40,000 a year and working 17+ hours a day with no way to support my family. You want to try and support this Community, take a moment to support the artists in the Online Store, in doing so you wont just be helping us, but you will be helping them and also helping yourself. Bottom Line: This is reality, this is life, you better get used to it, because someone is paying for this place to be here and realistically speaking.... some of us can't really afford to keep paying for it. 'nuff said. Jack

Jack, my comment--you're crazy. If you feel at some point that you and Ed can recoup the costs and have this as an 'aside' from a regular business, then I say fine. I don't think you should take a major loss or neglect your family--much as I enjoy coming here. "If I haven't told you lately that I love you", then here 'tis--LOL. BUT--I mean this--everybody better get some balance about this--none of us should expect anyone to take a loss unless it will lead to something good in the future for youall financially and otherwise. 'nuff said. Diane B

i like the store...why?...cause it gives the artist an opportunity to make a bit of dough and continue doin what they love best and secures the site from goin belly up....and most importantly it might make the artist make their own models instead of constantly looking in the free section and that would make the member a better artist nnuu

I am not putting in the 17 that Jack and Ed do, but my 10-12 (15 when I was getting the store together) sure the hell are damn tiring. I can't count how many times I have asked myself why I am doing this. Like Jack says, its not for money. Honestly, if a vote was put up today between the staff on wether to close this place down, my vote would be yes. Sad to say, but its the truth. -Trav

Well, I neglected to say that the staff needs to back off a bit too. I don't know how you will do that, but believe me, its really important. I've been there, done that--and have some age on you guys, so I have a bit of perspective on whether it is worth it or not. Everyone needs to take their responsibilities seriously, but when ALL the fun disappears and you begin to really hate your work, then its a downhill slide from there. I hope this doesn't happen for any of you--and not just from selfish reasons like I happen to like this site--and all of you. Diane B

Ed and I would echo that, you know that Trav, that is why we haven't put it to a vote :o) Jack

:-( sad :-( sad :-( sad Thinking good thoughts for you. I know it doesn't help. so, very sorry. Wish I could help. '''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''' - sympathy tears.

Thanks Ana, don't get me wrong, we aren't looking for sympathy or a pat on the back, just trying to wake people up to the fact that this site is costing someone for it to be here. Jack

I already understood that you were not looking for sympathy. But I don't really contribute so all I really have is sympathy for your stress and understanding for how very much you people put into this. I am only giving you what I can, the only way I can. I try to get up here every day if only to check outthe newest art, the complaint and debate, and the tavern. I rarely ever comment unless something "really" effects me. I love this site, and I know I'm not alone. You people are the only virtual reality that I hang out in. So, if there is a problem that I see and hear of and I feel any particular way about it, then I comment. In this case your valiant and above and beyond the call of duty efforts that are getting more slack than praise made me very upset. I had nothing to say but what I said because it's what my heart felt. And, I'm sorry to say, my heart and my tongue (in this case fingers) are one. I was only giving you my heart-felt feelings on this matter. I had no other words than those I gave.

Jack and Ed tried that, during the week they were away, we had numerous attacks on the security of the fourm, several internal forum issues I won't go into, and general mayhem that made them aboved stressed out on their Vacation. I have tried to take a day off here and there, no such luck. Something always needs fixing, or our attention, etc... blah blah blah. Hell I have a resignation letter all typed up and ready to go, have had it there for almost a month. Yep, I am stressed out to the point of being physically sick, I don't care really about the forum any more, and all of my creative energy has been sucked out of me over the last month, but I am still here. Honesty sucks :)

OK...here we go roles reversed! Isn't that life itself? :o) Last time I was complaining you were supporting..now it's MY turn to do the same thing for you! The truth is that you are absolutely right and you can't give your full heart into something without gaining absolutely nothing in return..and unfortunatelly it's true that this is exactly what's going on around here if I reckon Jack's burst out! Good points, honest grief, fed up! I can sympathize with all those feelings and get in his shoes..but I doubt if he will ever learn to stop giving his full heart in whatever he does if he belongs to that kind -and too bad for him- looks as if he does! :o) Personally I had absolutely no problem anymore with the new store as soon as the policy of uploaders was revised! Took me by surprise at first not because I didn't trust the ones who run this forum..but many of its members! I've seen too much egocentrism around on various posts to know that those who would jump to the opportunity of earning just the title of being including among the sellers (even if they never sold a single item) were way too many! IMP that wouldn't hurt them...but definately would hurt this home of ours! Show me one who logs in without visiting this place..I seriously doubt if there are any! And this we all know that we owe it to the people working behind the scenes even if we don't stop too often to think about it! I'm well known to have quite a temper but also one who calms down as fast as it blows by logical reasoning and debate! I hope Jack is like that too...I do know Traveler is! :o) Maybe my thoughts have drifted off topic but what I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't take all this flaming so seriously whenever it arises! It's a natural relationship between mother and child... children complain all the time, mother tries to remain calm, children nag her more, talk back..but eventually they run back in her lap at the end!Because that's where home is and few ever abondon it forever! And it's so darn true that all parents think their kids never appreciate them enough ...but they do! Even if they don't show it...even if they revolt to their decisions...but at the end..they do abide by their will not out of submission but because they truly understand deep inside (even if they hardly ever admit it) that their parents are right! Does the comparision sound a bit familiar? I hope it does..because this place is home for me and will always be..and worst thing I could ever think of was to wake up one day and not find it around! Maybe the rest should give it a thought too! That's my two pence! renapd

Jack, I had to come back on and see what your post was about after our chat.. Since we've become close over the months I have seen first hand how stressed you've been over all this and of course my remedy was always to take a break, but you always told me that wasn't an option.. Even your vacation was ate up with work and stress... I'm just glad you finally let it blow and let people know how hard you, Ed and the others who run this site work so hard ... You even eat at your puter for gawd sate!!!!...So I can dig it... I was excited about and anticipated the online store when you mentioned it to me a while back.. I thought it would be received well, but I didn't expect and I know the others who run this site, didn't expect such negative reactions.. I'm really sorry for this cause I know you want only the best for this community.. I agree with nnuu it's an inspiration for artist to become better at their craft and you've given us an opportunity to make a profit if we become good enough.. Not only should we support our fellow artist but the site because without it many of us wouldn't continue to be inspired and motivated... Keep in mind all that I've told you .. You know I support you and all the hard workers who keep this site up and running for all of us to enjoy.... You know I love ya, Jack... Hopefully this post will enlighten a few folks who have no clue... Sorry, you know I couldn't let this post go unresponded by me..... Kisses*** ~Cindy

Bandwith is hideously expensive, to be sure. I like the store idea and support it, and by God you deserve to rake in digicash after what you've been through. Maybe you could make fast dough through burning CD's of a best of collection from the store and get those out for sale, I dunno. As an artist I know how the net has changed the concept of intellectual property to mean everything is free but bandwith, and ya gotta have that. I support whatever it takes, and the whining shitsack's who lashed out would probably let it languish if it required anything on their part. Jack, Ed and Trav right now it probably feels like in this game the house always wins. With your ideas, effort, and enthusiasm, you've fed more insatiable cretins, more pathetic maniacs, more complex anthropoids than would drive the average monkey to suicide. Anyway, you've worked for (and achieved) a specific goal. That is to your credit. People are always mean and stupid; they want to seem so clever the minute they stand up from their own troubles. You'll get through it. As for the comments the store generated; they're secretions. We all have a hatred for pettiness. Hang tough.

Well I aint kissing no one. But just had to say you guys rawk. This isnt to be some butt smooch or anything. Just a simple fact that I appreciate all that goes into this site. I had no problem with the store other than the fact that I missed some of the regulars at the other place. Other than that I support you guys as best as I can and hope that I dont cause hardships ... Best of luck with everything ...

I really respect you guys doing this forum. I really apreciate it. You do need to slow down and bring more people on... you do need to have time/energy left for you loved ones in the "real world". I am one of those guilty of "taking my ball and going home" (I had a popular painting technique site that I pulled the plug on because I felt under appreciated, I regret that now for a variety of reasons). I respect that you have never made that threat that I know of. Keep up the fight to keep going and forget about the a_holes, they aren't worth worrying about. The work you have done and are doing has great value to the silent majority, both as a resourse, for the free stuff, for the advise, and for setting a standard in art to aspire to. I wish you and the artists luck on the Store. I'm afraid it won't pay the bills though, for g_ds sake Amazon.com has yet to show a profit. I think that hosting vanity galleries may be a good idea, there are suckers paying big money to get a couple images of conventional paintings up on the net and that is for URL that get no traffic. But I do wish you luck with the store, plus its an opportunity for people to buy and sell at a range of prices which is something a traditional retailer can't offer. Well, sorry to take your time, but I really want to thank a bunch of people who give so much but choose to remain in the background rather than try to glorify themselves. dan modotti

Jack, Ed and Traveler... It's about fucking time you guys opened your mouths. I was starting to wonder when you would! I buy stuff when I can and when it's something I can either say "What the hell... I deserve a new toy" or I can look at my boss and say "We either get this or the project you want me to finish is going to take an extra (fil in as many days as I think it will take times 3) days!" And I wish you guys would make a subsciption site... People hae not only gotten jaded, but down right SELFISH! I respect the hell out of you folks, but there are times I think you're nuts for doing it all out of pocket. And to those of you who say anything like "But it's a COMMUNITY forum.." GO LOOK UP THE WORD COMMUNITY! Either help out somehow or shut the hell up! But something to justify the bandwidth you eat or send Jack some money. Stop stuffing all your mouths at the horn o' plenty and then bitching when puts the mustard next to you and says "Well, the burgers and fries we just gave you cost us $3 to make and we are selling the mustard for $1." Either enjoy and be thankful or shut the hell up!

Jack I have not contibuted anything to the Free Stuff yet because I am still learning, but I hope to when I am good enough. I have, however, contributed to debates and even started one or two. My motives are genuine, I love this place, I love what you guys and girls have made of it, I respect and like all of you despite the fact we never have, and probably never will meet in real life. In some ways all of you are as real as the people I like and meet in everyday life and as such when you hurt my heart goes out to you. A lot of artists tend to be a cantankerous and difficult lot at the best of times and this has a lot to do with their creative natures (no insult intended to anyone). 15,000 of them smimming in the same pool is bound to lead to some friction. Please do not let it get you down, rise above it, learn from it and soar. Deep down the vast majority of us want you to be successful, happy and contented with the mammoth task you and the others have undertaken. For most of us when we question and debate it is because it is a way of making a contribution, by the same token it might also be an extra burden to you. It is not intended as such, do not let it get you down, take from it what is good and forget the rest. I wish you and the team all the best. STORM

For a site that's not raking in the cash, it certainly looks like a million bucks. I can't believe people are actually complaining about the online store. Somehow, the community has gotten the idea that people should drain their own pocketbooks for love of the community, instead of looking to commercial ventures to even things out (or god forbid in the fucking art world, profit might be made.) Good lord, I can't believe people are that uptight about the hosts not suffering enough for our art. I think the admins have done a good job here, and I'm sad that they are NOT making a profit. These guys are NOT martyrs, they get things done, they don't just whine about it when things get tough. They have held tough when other sites in the community have faltered or failed because of the pressure. And people are giving them shit about a goddamned online store. When is this community going to grow up!!

I have brought this up in the past and it has been ignored. Where can I send a voluntary contribution? Without making this an "official" subscription site, (which I know I would not mind if it was) maybe you can post an address to where we can all send financial contributions? If there are 15,000 and ten percent of those sent in a dollar a month, that would cover bandwidth eh? I think we've all got a dollar for cryin out loud! Most of us would send more, I am certain. So there is your bandwidth and the financial motivation to keep it going and put the food on the table. It is not a matter of begging, or any discredit to your prides. What you guys are doing is insane, unless there is some sort of event in the horizon that you're collectively working for, such as selling the site for six-billion dollars or something like that. I think you should put out the collection plate. Put a box on the front page where we can click and get information on where to send our contributions. Also, Jack...Ed....as you know I am not to far away from you guys. If there is anything at all I can do as far as workload, let me know and I'll see what I can do. -Darth_Logice

I have no problem with the forum and have said so in that forum. I've also bitched at people to stop complaining and say good job now and then. I have one idea, and tho it would require some investment, it might be workable. Has anyone thought of making posters from some of the best work here and offering those for sale? I don't know about anyone else, but I would be more than willing to donate any of my images that might be worthy to that cause. I love this community, and while I don't have any money, I'm certainly willing to at least put my work where my mouth is if it would help.

I haven't contributed to Freestuff because most everything there is better than what I can do with the tools I've got. I also haven't purchased from the store because I'm in some financial straits myself right now. (Sniff, sniff) I smell ... REALITY. Hey, I really like this site and come here almost every day. But if it is gonna put ya in the poorhouse, something's gotta give. (Us?) At 15000 members, 2 or 3 bucks each a year just to cover costs isn't unreasonable. But making it a 'pay' site will mean many members will leave, pruning down the membership. This is an ambitious site. If it were to get scaled back, I would understand. I wouldn't like it, but I accept it. I could also accept more advertising if it helped keep it up. Business is war, and e-business is e-war. I really hope the e-casualties don't include this place.

alright.... i have been stubbornly refusing to get a credit card.... which keeps me from online buying... the easy way..... but i do support.. the online store... and will figure out how to make a few transactions i have been putting off.... next... how can we pay some kind of voluntary or mandatory subscription fee... and next how can we... the community help you... what skills can we volunteer from our far flung places... to make your hours less... and relieve your stress... Jack.. i can almost feel the blood vessel in your head about to burst in your messages... and this site is run as professionally as any i have ever seen... it is time it pays you back... and gives you your life back... thank you for the site... for your work.. now let us.. the community that this site serves pay it back

sorry, my mind glitches at times due to my illness. I meant I had no problem with the online store.

Jack, Traveler, Ed, and all the other people involved, I knew you were working your arses off, keeping this site going, but I never knew how hard, or how much it was costing and how much of your own $$$ you were putting into it. I am amazed, impressed, and VERY GRATEFUL that you are putting so much into this site. I would have given up by now. If I can be of any help, I will do what I can. I am here every day. I have said it before, and will say it as often as needed, "when Jack and crew took over this site, they said right from the start that some type of on-line sales was in the works" I think it's a good idea, and if you don't like it, don't buy. This site is unique. I'm sure that computer graphics would suffer greatly if Renderosity were to close. The pros would still go on, but us "newbies" would never learn a tenth of the "secrets" that are openly available here.

Dear Jack, Traveler, Ed and everybody else... Thanks for all of your hard work. I just started using poser and could not figure how I would cope without the great sites all of you put together. I think the store is a great idea and a way for everybody to support each other from the artists to the managers of this site. I also think that a best of CD as well as a subscription service that combines all of the posts from renderosity and renderotica would be a great service. People who post can have the option of opting out of including their works. This would also solve the problem of sites bumping off our works because they may contain nudity and losing our textures and characters. All of the proceeds could go back to Jack, Traveler, and Ed and anyone else who supports the site. Nobody should expect these fine people to give everything they got for nothing in return. Paid staff is the best way to insure service and quality. Once again great work and think about a month subscription ... this would also save us the hassle of trying to suck down every new post! What a great possible new service.

I feel as if everyone should keep up the good work they have been doing, because they are the best at it. I have purchased from the online store and consider it a move in the right direction. Keep the free stuff as teasers and sell the best. I am only a babe in the woods compared to the more gifted among us, but if there is anything I can do to help, let me know. As far as the 5-year old adult whiners go, I think they should quit complaining and grab the bull by the horns and "DEAL WITH IT!!!" "Hang in there, the best is yet to come"(unknown) Span<;)>

If this was a subscription site, I'm afraid that would lose me, as I have no money at all

I think before going to a subscription site, it should be tried as a donation thing first. I have no problem sending money if other people can't. If someone will post the address, I would be happy to send $20 a month to keep things going. I don't mean to suggest that is what everyone should do, but (if they try this) whatever you can. Bone, I think you have $2 a month? IF everyone sent $2 a month, bandwidth would be covered totally then some. -Darth_Logice

Jack... I've said it in private and in public... get thee to a PO box my son. Let those of us who wish to send a couple of bucks. I owe you and the rest of the staff in a major way - and I stupided out the last time I said I'd help. Forgive me and let everyone who wants send in what they can. Anyone out there not able to afford $5? All we need is 240 out of the huge number of people here to do that once a month. That will help cover the cost of some of the bandwidth and get the staff here some breathing room..... I'll send $10 so Jack can buy Ed a beer and Ed can then buy me one sometime!

Yeah, give us a po box fer chrissakes. I'd be happy to send something on. Get some idiot pride for godsake's! You've all done a great service, I use it daily and it's the goddamn least I could do.

I agree with Darth and Ikyoto, set something up so those of us that want to, can help defray the costs of running this site. Let us help how we can, Jack.

There isn't much that I can add. Jack, Ed, Traveler, Lobouk, Hawkfyr, Clay, Fast Trax, Fur, and everyone who keeps this magical place running, you have my deepest respect. I'm ready to sign up for that subscription. Best Regards, H2

I'm in too. This is the homepage on my browser afterall.

I agree Jack, it seems to me that a "voluntary" subscription to this site may not be a bad idea, I'd give 5 dollars or so a month for this site on a regular basis..it's very valuable to me..and as Ikyoto said it will only take 240 people to give 5 dollars a month...Count me in. Davo (who seems to remember this idea kicked around a couple months ago)

All I can add is "WHAT THE HELL TOOK YOU SO LONG". I always assumed you were making good money from banner ad's and such. To think that you guy's have been paying money out of you own pocket to listen to this group whine and wimper is to put it mildly, NUTS. I'm against a subscription for the site mainly because it excludes the few that are truely straped for cash and that doesn't seem right. If the previous comments are any indication, then it seems to me your personal financial outlay might well be over. I'm not a tightwad and have no problems paying for my share of such a wonderful site. Let's get that PO box number up soon. As for spending 17+ hrs a day and vacation's working on the site. Well....GET A LIFE GUYS, and I meam that in the nicest possible way. Also get some help, I'm sure your loved ones would like to see you occasionally.

I work for you Jack, and I am proud of it. All of us Moderators and Admins are proud to be here and we all feel your pain and share your stress because we are like a family! I apologize for sticking my nose in here cause I am not sure I should. You and Ed and Trav are the ones that make this place but we help out as much as we can. But even with the minor roles we all play to help you keep this place happy and "alive" we can still feel the anguish and the stress that you feel. Much like Traveler, I too had a letter all typed up and ready to be posted. Things have gotten so bad around here lately that a lot of us are at our wits end at what to do, and we hate to see you put so much into something and get so very much stress from it all. It affects all of us because we ARE close to you, (no hot showers please). I now present you Jack, with the notice that I have been pondering posting here.... To the Members...Perhaps it's time we shut the place down? It is not my place to say this, nor my responsibility, but it is on my mind as well as on the minds of all the others that take pride to bring you this place and make it as comfortable and resourceful as possible for each and everyone that spends time here. I may well lose my place here after posting this for I have NO permission to write this here. At this point I don't care because I am tired of all the hurt I see around me. We have all worked real hard here, and we continue to work hard; so very hard that we very often forget that we all have our own lives, our own jobs away from here, our own families that love us and miss us because we spend sometimes way too much time busting our asses on the forum. And then we sometimes wonder. We wonder just how much of our own Art we have neglected, how many creations we could have accomplished, how many countless pages of galleries and characters and props we could all have nurtured from our own talents if we had not sacrificed our time to all the folks here and this place they visit day after day. Heck, some of us have neglected poser and bryce for so long we have forgotten some of the more intricate functions! A lot of us have put aside great chunks of our lives and our learning to be here and give our all for this place to be. I could have learned Rhino, I would build in 3DMax, probably create morphs in Amorphium and realize the wonders of Canoma but, instead, I am here, along with many others, to help make this place a dream come true for all the folks that come here. We don't ask for much. You don't have to kiss our butt, you don't need a website, you don't have to have talent, you don't even have to have poser. You don't have to speak English and you don't have to worry about going anywhere else as well as here, we have NO problem with that. You can flame us, you can pain us. We might fight back if you are wrong but if your right we can also swallow our pride and take it with a grain of salt. When Jack first came here this place was very little more than a foundation that once was; a crumbling mass of memories that most would have rather forgotten. With his persistance and with a vision he managed to slowly build, and even though it was the struggle of his life, he endured, and he scraped until finally, through all the clouds of never ending contraversy and deceit, it seems this place is once again thriving and even more a place for Artists and Creators to enjoy than anyone could have imagined. Now, finally having succeeded in becoming the playground for so many GREAT TALENTED people of all shapes and sizes and forms, NOW we wonder if Renderosity will survive. We are all very tired. We, the people that work WITH Jack to give all our BEST possible for this place so you can all enjoy it wonder? We wonder if it would be better to just let this place die? The saddest thing is that it is also something Jack wonders :-( This may well be my last posting as one of Jack's helpers, if so I must say it has been a sincere PLEASURE to work with such a man. He is not only talented and intelligent but he harbors a heart and he has feelings; a rare treat that is seldom shown by someone that is a businessman by nature; but the most important thing I will miss about Jack is his honesty and "telling it like it is attitude". Most everyone I have ever met at the forums knows me as someone that speaks from my heart, (many times too much), and through my heart I tell you now that Jack is a wonderful man with awsome ideas and most importantly he is a FRIEND to all!! Traveler and all the others that are here that I have learned to respect and cherish as a family, if I must go I will miss you all very much. I am so sorry to write all this but my conscience will not let it go. If this notice will be my final word then it is my sacrifice to all of you. Yours Truly, Peter Radart/3DSprite

Get off yer butts and get an address up so we can kick you some money! We DO NOT want to lose you, and I think there are enough of us to help out, so please let us! Marque

::Chuckles:: The best you could do, Ex-Admin, is to post a message that I had responded to back in December when there were problems with another forum?? Let alone a post that has been altered some for your goals of tearing a Community apart? That is the best you can use against me? LOL, pathetic! How little you know about me. I have never had a problem telling people what the issues were back then regarding my feelings about the efforts of some to tear the Community apart and try to bring rise to the "US & THEM" conflict which you seem to want to start again.... and you want to know the strange thing about this?? I don't hate you, I pity you. Why do I pity you? Because you run around behind shadows, jabbing and poking and trying to harm a Community to try and get back at me for something I have no clue about. Just like with the others, you have so much hatred in you for me and you still refuse to say why you do. Instead, you seem to want a war, like some other people do, and you don't care who you hurt in the Community (the very people you expect to trust you) to get some pathetic revenge for something I have never done to you. My friend, I truly pity you, to not have any kind of life but one filled with nothing but hatred and contempt. I really do feel sorry for you!! If you really had a legitimate reason for trying to "Open People's" eyes as it were, you would do so with your reputation, not a fake name or masked E-mail address. Nor do I think bringing up past hurt, pain and frustration for the Community, the Admin here, myself or the other forum which I was speaking about in that post, does anyone any service and only makes you look worse in everyone's eyes. I really don't see how you are helping anyone... and that is why I feel sorry for you. I will say that I did ban your fake account, maybe one day you will decide to have the balls to come as yourself. I promise to you, in front of everyone right now, that if you do so, that I wont ban you and I will address you and your complaints publicly. I don't have anything to hide, I have and will always remain truthful to this Community in everything that I do. You on the other hand, can't or you would be on as yourself. No do I make any apologies for my anger or frustration in that post that you put up for everyone to look at, my only apology is that YOU decided to make it public knowledge to hurt everyone and that this was done by someone that I thought I could trust enough to be on my Admin team. So see people, this is what Eric was talking about. The type of things that have been plaguing all of us who run this place since day one. People wanting to create Conspiracy's, Hatred and Pain. People destroying the trust... I will now post a message that I had posted in the Admin forum a week or so ago... I may not be looked at favorably for it, but, as I said, I don't have anything to hide and am to tired of this crap to try and do so if I wanted to... Jack

Welcome to the Administration - Private Forum! Forum Moderator: Jack D. Kammerer You are a moderator of this forum. Back to [Read new messages] 1. Where I am at.... by Jack D. Kammerer on 05/11 02:22 [Delete] [Move to Another Forum] [Lock] First, let me say I don't want anyone to try and rain sunshine on my ass or be wanting to take long hot showers together regarding this post, nor do I wish this shit to go outside of this forum, if it does, you can be damned sure that I will hunt you down and kill you. NO JOKE... Consider this my rant or my act of trying to get my head screwed on straight, or a thought regarding my future.... Personaly, I am tired... tired of working 17 hours a day, living and breathing complaints from the members we serve here. Tired of being under stress day in and day out and I am burned out, no new ideas, no bright shinning smile on my face when I think about this place, no real pride with the thought of how well this site is doing in membership or how successful the e-com store is doing. Not to mention, I am devestated by the lack of trust I have with our guys in the Moderator forum... tired of my words being used against me all of the time, tired of the "hit and fades" that our FRIENDS the goddamn people that I embraced and trusted causing PITFALLS and stumbling blocks with every idea that I have!! I am tired that when I do get a vaction that it ISN'T a vaction, it is a NIGHTMARE, when our own cut us and make us bleed. The last two weeks have been the hardest times that I have ever had the displeasure of having here. It has come to the point where I HATE Renderosity, and am only here because people expect me to be here. How can I any longer say that I enjoy being here, when I no longer get a chance to use the programs that first brought me here, or when I am the subject of every chat "So and So" has? I don't mean to be raining on anyone's parade, but sitting there reading the opinions of some of the members about the store front, makes me wonder how long it will be till some of the distrustful begin to try and FUCK with it or us through it. Where do we go from here? What is next for Renderosity? What can we hope to do next? Where is the challenge we once had? These are just some of the thoughts I am having sitting here. Tired and burned out and out of ideas. We took a "broken toy" (no offense Roy) and turned it into the largest site on the web that deals with 3D Products. WE ARE THE BEST!! And yet, I don't feel joy. Instead, I am sitting here depressed because some of the people we thought we could trust aren't here with us to share in it's success. And yet, we still have one or two hidden zealots, and that is what they are, brainwashed or convinced into believing a lie about me and trying to make the community suffer for it. I don't give a shit about the fucking money. Fuck the goddamn money!! I am not going to take one cent of the money made here, I don't want it anymore, it will go to the Admins and the Moderators, it will go to Bill and the artists and to EdgeNet. I don't want it. I just want my passion for this place back, the joy I had when I took it over, but most of all, I just want my friends back. Jack

Perhaps you take wonderful delight in posting that titillating message here and now your thinking in your little mind, oh, now all the folks will see Jack for what YOU think he is; but it may just backfire on you!! Personally, no matter how disgruntled and how argumentive the members at this forum tend to be at times, I think they are far too intelligent and wise to let your feeble games sway them!! So now what?? Shall we have a little war?? Are you hoping that Jack or any of us will start posting OUR share of contraversies to counter act this farce?? I think NOT! The mere fact that you would post such a dirty deed is enough to show folks here just what trash you are made from! You are NOT doing yourself any justice Mr. Sporkcheese, for even if what you have done here shuts this place down, you have HURT ALL the people; that is not the intention of Jack or any of us that work here, but it is obviously YOURS!!! You sputter nonsense and wish only to cause harm to Jack and everything he has done. And I beseech everyone here; if I felt for one moment that Jack was anything close to what this vile and corrupt individual is trying to pass him over as, I and a good many of us would NOT be here. You are an insult to your race Sporkcheese, crawl back into your hole from which you spawned!! We have worked far to hard and there are too many nice people here to let the likes of YOU come along and infect this place with your disease!!!

Wow, I knew there were a few assholes around, but I had no idea there were any people actually trying to hurt this place or anyone here. That really sucks. This place had become my second home, and some good and dear friends are here. If some asshole is gonna try to hurt this place, count me in on Renderosity's side. I'll stand up and kick ass with the best of them.

As for everyone else here and for Ikyoto, 3DSprite, Bonestructure and everyone else... Yes, I am tired, this "Us VS. Them" bullshit helps to make me feel such... BUT...but, I refuse to let these pitiful people win, nor do I expect or want any payment from any of you. That isn't why I took over this place, to make money. I took over this place to make this a Community again. Yes, I would like to be able to make money to help keep this place open and free for everyone that walks through these virtual doors and I will be spending the next few days (while getting Renderotica on it's new server) trying to come up with a way in which we can do so. NO ONE and I MEAN NO ONE should get nothing for their hard earned cash!!!! Because of this, I don't want to do a donation thing... instead, help me people, come up with a way that we can utilize all of the WONDERFUL TALENTED ARTISTS HERE...!! Help me come up with ideas that will take some of your work and get it OUT THERE TO THE PUBLIC not just between the friends and family here, BUT TO THE WORLD!!! Someone very special to me suggested Calenders and Posters which can be printed and sold with the profit being split for the Artist to make money for their work also!! That is what I want, that is all that I have EVER wanted for this place, that YOU ALL get blessed in some way for the WONDERFUL TALENT that I wish I had... Please, if you have any ideas, post them in the NEW FORUM called COMMUNITY IDEAS!! Thank you everyone for the show of support, all we want is something that EVERYONE here can benefit from!!! Jack

Jack, no matter how much crap gets posted here or anywhere about you and all the bad evil things your supposed to be, and no matter how much you get ridiculed and mocked by some that wish you ill or are jealous because you have the ability to run a forum with integrity and honesty as a backbone instead of deceit and divinity, we will stand with you!!! I have never met you, and I really do not know you as a person, but I do know all you have done and what you continue to do, and I also know what you stand for. As well I say this. There is someone here that DOES know Jack, he knows him very, very well!! This person I speak of is Traveler, and although he may well be asleep right now I know he doesn't mind me speaking for him when I tell you that. Traveler is one of the KINDEST, most GENEROUS people I have EVER met on the forums. He has alone given so very much to all the Poser Community and continues to do so. You ALL know that, you ALL use his morphs, his characters, his clothes, his props, heck, what would Poser be without all of Travelers generosity?? Traveler is gold. He is sincere, and he has given you all he can. Traveler is a part of this site. I KNOW for a fact that he would NOT be here if Jack was playing games. He is way to nice a guy for that!!!! And I think, I would HOPE, that you ALL know that???

Ok, I'm opening my big mouth here and spitting out my opinion. 1. Re: the sporkcheese post - can you say disgruntled postal worker? wink Just consider the source and pay it no mind. You can't reason with the unreasonable. 2. Jack - now you know why I don't want your job. big grin 3. Re: lack of funds and too long hours. Might I make a suggestion? First of all, why can't we simply do this the same way the PBS stations do it? Have a "pledge drive" type of thing. I would be more than willing to either pay a reasonable membeship fee (gawd knows if I can maintain a membership at Navworks and the MeshFactory as well as other places I would be happy to do the same here) OR perhaps offer the priviledge of placing a "Renderotica Sponsor" graphic (and link) on our personal websites in return for a sponsorship donation. This is in addition to the Store, not instead of it, btw, and it keeps the place free for those without the funds to buy a membership. Sponsorships would also not require that you have a business site of any sort. Now, about the long hours. That's not going to be an easy one to solve, but I think it can be done. Have you considered adopting something similar to the Member Representative program that Prodigy used to run on it's bulletin boards? Each participant was from the general membership and had limited administrative powers. Each memrep was responsible for a specific area and a specific task. It did a lot as far as taking some of the burden off the board admins. E-mails were quite often referred to the proper memrep for handling (example: the rep for the dtp forum was sent all the questions etc, dealing with that topic). Also, schedules could be arranged as well so that no one would have to spend more than 4 to 6 hours monitoring things. Part of the problem, as I see it, is that you have spoiled us. Yes, you have. You all work so hard that most technical problems are fixed almost before they're reported. Gods forbid we should have to actually wait for an hour or two or even 24 (sarcasm, directed at the general membership, myself included). This is, bar none, the BEST 3D site I have seen. The wealth of information and assistance here is a valuable thing and I would hate to lose it. The freedom of expression allowed here is, in itself, worth keeping this place open. If there is anything - and I mean ANYTHING within my power that I can do to help keep this site going you have only to ask and it's yours. KateTheGrateful

That's real nice, Jack, banning me and all. Tell ya what, you see how many times you can ban me, and I'll see how many times I can log on. But enough with that nonsense. First of all, to answer a question, why don't I use my real name, or reveal my identity? I would be fucking crazy if I did! Not that I fear any of you, but I do fear the type of reputation I would get for ever associating myself with this cesspool of a site. In the beginning, we were aimless. The community split, and there were those of us left scratching our heads wondering "Why?" Some went off and started another place, while others chose to remain here. I was one of the ones that decided to stay. I felt that everything that was already in place was here, and all it needed was a little fixing up, a little damage control, and then everything would be hunky dory. I chose to distance myself from the conflicts that arose between the two seperate communities, because I thought it was fruitless. Then, things started changing. You took over, and suddenly, it looked like it was getting too good. You had the ferver of an evangelist, rallying the sheep together. In the end, you ended up like a televangelist, showing how deep your pockets go. Yeah, the argument of whether or not the store idea is good is an old one, but here's the catch-- It was PROMISED that this site wouldn't go commercial. It was DECLARED that the stuff the old guard was spouting of was "propaganda from the losers' side" etc. etc. Now here we are, or rather, here YOU are, a site with commercial leanings. Jack, I trusted you, sincerely I did. I laughed and snickered with you in YOUR deciets, but then it hit me... What makes me different from anyone else you've screwed? What makes me different from any other member here that could get it in the ass from you suddenly, without the decency of vaseline? Nothing does, Jack, nothing. This is why I posted that clipping from the Admin Forum. To show the common member here that this place was not built on a dream, or some such bullshit, but from a hermit crab who likes getting his dick stroked by anyone, and by any means possible. I see your trained monkeys are serving you well. Nevertheless, I will NOT stop until I see this place shut down FOR GOOD.

Then you have a very long time to wait my friend.... I just don't see it happening... And what Deciets do you speak about? Hmmm? Who have I shafted in the ass? I have never asked you to stroke my dick, I've asked you to try and help make this site the best damn site on the Internet... I asked you to be loyal to the Members... you think you are accomplishing that by false allegations, innuendoes and by your actions? If you had put as much effort in helping to run this place and come up with ideas as you do your mindless agenda, perhaps you wouldn't be so frightened about using your real name.... Just a thought... Jack

I hope you live a long and fruitful life then, YOU who spout forth rot from your lips with such tranquil ease!! You can't even speak professionally, nevermind that what you have to say is nothing but a stab at someone you are spiteful of! Perhaps if you were to at least have some manners someone would listen to your rants, but you speak like your nothing but a prison jock who hasn't been able to get a bar of soap to wash the stink from his mind!! Have you nothing better to do with your life?? It's bad enough you waste our time with this garbage, but you are wasting the time of all the members here too, and worst of all, you are LITTER, and frankly we get tired of having to clean you up!!! Go hug someone or find a good book to read, or maybe get a hobbie?? Even better yet, find a good book that will teach you how to speak without bellowing out so many fowl words. Your anger, your jealousy, and your spitefullness are all showing so you better wrap a towel around your spilling brain to keep any more intellect from falling out!!

Grow up and get a life, Nomind. Scum such as yourself have no place at either Forum. SIGH. Always the bugs crawl out from under the rocks. Squish one, and another takes its place. Anyone have any Cyber-Raid? Greywolf

Peter, it's alright, let him vent, he has a right to and if people choose to listen to him, let them. Giving him attention only fuels his pride and anger... and serves no one by making this a private hell hole for everyone to wade through... He isn't going to win, this site wont be closing as long as I am here and even after I am gone... let him prattle, eventually he, like the rest of us, will get tired of hearing his voice... Jack