hi, ive been with rosity only for about a year or so now, and i have made many friends here. but there is one thing that bothers me and i never see anyone talk about it. the fact that most of the art is not truley rated on what you think of it, with helpful comments, or true emotions. nor do the votes reflect that always either. people in contests, and the regular galleries make some lovely pictures and then someone with a larger email list gets more votes. not because the art is better, simply because those people who voted are trying to please their friends. i bet a better way to please your friends would be to help them become better by making "constructive critisism" and helping with ideas and not just saying "omg i love it" and voting for that person when theres another picture you like more, or being quiet when you think theres something that the person could do better on. just my opinion. and i dont mean offense to anyone, this is meant to try to help the community grow.

I also don't wish to give offense, but the popularity contest issue has been around a long time, and predates either of us. It has tainted contests and the Hot 20. Apparently some people don't want feedback that doesn't come from friends, that isn't a rave review. Other people want honest criticism but not in public. Other people don't care and welcome feedback. Other people, like me, don't care and don't open up for comments because they don't feel posted comments would be meaningful. This has been an issue for a long time, certainly, but there is nothing the Renderosity administration can do about the inherent inconsistences of the community other then try to keep clone voting down to a minimum.

i do agree there, that there is nothing the administrators could do, but the members could do something about it.

Only if they wanted to. The fact that it continues shows they really don't. I'm not happy saying that but I see a resistence to anything faintly resembling change around here. I don't think, truthfully, anyone really wants things any different because there is so little effort made. And so much resistence given everytime the Administration tries to do something the least bit different or try something new. I hope I'm wrong. But that's how I feel. I think for the most part the galleries are stagnating (with a few brilliant exceptions) and we keep getting into the same dreary arguments. I'll happily admit my part in this. But I doubt if anyone else will.

yeah, its sad i guess.

I want to hasten to say there are people who contribute mightily to this site and try to make it a better place. Dee-Marie and the moderators of the Poser forum fight to keep things positive. People like Steve Shanks, Sams3D, and Dr. Geep are incredible resources. I value them more than I have ever told them. I'm just tired of all the instant negativity every time someone makes a suggestion or offers an alternative. I'm tired of all the selfishness and narrow vision. It doesn't seem right for a community of theoretic artists to be so imprisoned in their boxes. But, then, this isn't a community of artists or I wouldn't be here. It is a community of some artists and many artist want-to-be's who sometimes mistakes themselves for the real thing. Maybe that makes the difference. I don't know. It is sad. But I don't know what to do about it. I just vote "don't care" on the polls, I've dropped out of the challenges and contests, I drop out of threads when I can tell nothing is being accomplished, and I've narrowed my focus to what I enjoy and try to block out the rest. I don't know what else I can do to protect myself. I guess everyone has to decide for themselves how much they want to take on for a community that doesn't care. I've made my decision, and it has broken my heart. Oh well. It's not as if it matters.

Oh come on, Dialyn. It's not THAT bad. LOL Change just for the sake of change rarely does any good. This is a community of people and thus shares the same failings we all do.

i also have made a decision and ill stick to it if it kills me!

On the Poser Community page, you post a link to an image that you like, and then you can IM the artist and tell him thanks for sharing... and what you liked about it... I guess you could even OMG him/her and hug and kiss them.

"...to find something good and different." to make them is both an art in itself and takes WORK!! ya make em and they still don't come

right on geo

Re: popularity etc. it's not really a renderosity thing as much as it is something that happens anytime you have a community type environment. Some people are just more popular than others (for whatever reason). You find that here, you find it on other sites, and you find it in the real world. There's nothing inherently wrong with it and a lot of times that's just the way things work. As far as the gallery, well yeah, sometimes images get a lot of comments and viewings because it's done by someone who is "popular" around here. But then at the same time, a lot of those images really are well done (and yes, I suppose some of them aren't). Does that mean those images would get as many comments if they were done by a "stranger" here? Maybe, maybe not. Random thought: why are certain people popular here in the first place? Do they pay people off? Do they give stuff away generously? Do they just do good work and people notice? Heck, is it simply the result of having a cool username that attracts people? LOL I'm not sure I really have a point to make here. Just something to ponder. Or maybe I just like wasting bandwidth...

You know, sad to say but it has a lot to do with anonymity. People hid behind their online persona, and use names like Grey_cat, or blessed isis. You dont know me, and I dont know you. Its hard to trust people you dont know, so the ones that know each other flock together for mutual support. Can you blame them? If you criticize the wrong person, that person can attack you from behind their online mask, and should it get to hot for them they can always run away and find a new online mask. If this is a community, then its a community of strangers. Sad to say John Stroo

i know that the scenario wont change if u can get warnings because people don't approve of a critisism then why bother commenting with something other than ass kissing believe me i know all to well so now if i want to remark on a piece of work and how it can be improved i do it with the messenger sad that the world it scared to change even if its for the better

The moderators and admins are debating the solution to this Poser Gallery problem. Trust me, we've noticed the same thing. If you have suggestions, please post them in the Team Contact forum. Lyrra BTW if anyone feels like posting constructive comments on any of my work, please do so. Just ignore my spelling grin

i for one have noticed that less people view my images now than they did when i first started posting. i get less comments too. i dont know if this is because of the "popularity contest" but i do try to make original renders, and i think they have gotten better over time. i would think that the 3 of viewings would go up rather than down. i think that more and more people are getting frustrated with the gallery. no one has enough time to sift though all those pictures! there had been talk of limiting the # of postings...maybe it's time?

they limit it to three per day as of right now but i know what you mean and you may be right but it may detour some artists from posting here and as you know its a business we are the customers but the more frequent a customer is the more preferential care they recieve so the chances of limiting the total number of postings are slim - Thomas

We posted the possibility of limiting the number of posts per day and the response was rather heated. It had nothing to do with money and who spends how much - we had a lot of people get very angry when we've brought up the idea. Just like anywhere else, there are cliques who want nothing but praise, casual passersby who poke around quietly and serious people who want to learn. Some of the popular people are those who contribute a lot to the forums while others are simply very social, hang around a lot and know what to say and when. In a way, it's just like high school - no offense intended. The question is - how to draw more attention to talent and how to help more people learn.

thank you i agree whole heartedly i didn't mean spending money it seems that the users who spend the most time in chat are also some of the users with the viewings if you want some major view counts waste your time there you'll get em especially if your part of the clique i'm not i offended everyone in chat at one time or another but thats me i speak my mind but yes it is its like a bunch of school kids and i don't about you but i finished the clique thing right after i finished school thing i found it very superficial to be honest no offense intended to anyone -Thomas

i would like also to add to all of your very well made points, that i do post alot of pics, and i do get alot more comments than i used to. once people see something they like, they tend to come back to it, like some women and chocolate, or men and sex..(sorry for the stereotype..ok..no im not :P) but anyway, i know i go in the chat all the time and spam my pic and thats how i got to know alot of the people here, but it saddens me that no one ever says, "hey, you know, i could show you a better way to do your hair.." or " i think if you spent a little more time on a pic, it would be alot better"..or "her eyes looked crooked..". every now and then it does happen, but most of the time i spam the pic and everyone just comments about how much they love it. which i mean is ok by me that people like it, otherwise i wouldnt post at all and id just keep it all to myself, but i would also like people to be able to share their thoughts and opinions and critisisms. i dont, for any reason condone being mean to someone. dont go spoutin "hey you suck, your paintings sucks " etc etc, just give helpful comments and suggestions, and then ooh and aww over how gorgeous it is:) i have found myself not making any of those comments before, but i will make sure i do now in the future because for some, (like myself)without guidance, or help, find themselves doing the same thing over and over again. much love to all here at rosity and i hope you all have a beautiful week.:)

Did anybody see a Magic Pink Pony run through here?

isis you do some amazing work i've never had a negative thing to say about it and i'll critique i wont spout off with a personal cut what i do is constructive in some cases i'm wrong but art is in the eye of the beholder....... or is that beauty, well it works either way- Thomas

An interesting thing I've discovered though is that when I have left constructive criticism on a popular artist's image, I often got a private IM thanking me for taking the time to view and offer improvements on their work. Just because an artist has thirty "I love it, your best yet! hugs!!" comments on their image doesn't mean that they're not hoping for someone to come along and NICELY point out anything they may have overlooked. :) Thanks, take care. SnowS

Feel free to enter the Poser Forum Monthly Challenge. The voting is not tainted because we vote in the forum for all to see. Also, the voting requires 3 votes which makes people chose 3 different images. Electricardvark, LOL, too funny. Nope, no pink pony, but a few penny and will figures in gungan morphs maybe. Crescent, who cares if they get mad, do what you have to do anyway. Lyrra, I have an idea and will be there shortly.

"Did anybody see a Magic Pink Pony run through here?"

Shhh! You'll resurrect the damn thing. ;)

Ok, I don't see a team contact forum. Maybe you meant the forum news or community ideas. Anyway, I'll post here... How about a new genre. Call it "Mod's pic" or something similar. The genre would be available for all to view but only the mods can link to it. This would be the permanent place for Lyrra's "pics you gotta see" thing, or any other pic that the mods think are artistic. The rules would be simple. 1. No one gets to submit 2. No one gets to complain 3. No one gets to whine. 4. Anyone who bombs the mods with "look at this" or "Why is my pic not there" gets sent to the jar jar corner. Consider it an honor to have your pic there and if you notice a total lack of a certain type of art not being there, well, remember rule 3. It would be a place where the mods can draw attention to the images they think are particularly talented and they can say why. So? Good idea or should I just automatically carry myself to the jar jar corner again? I soooo hate it there.

Doh ... pardon me, I forgot the name changed a while ago. Try the "Community Ideas" forum grin

I wish people would give me that "constructive critisism" thing. I actually got our recent Critic Shark to check a couple of mine and what he had to say made sense. Having not been 'born' with talent like many others here, I NEED to be told. And don't worry, I gotts skin as thick as my skull! ...move over Jar-Jar...

I totally agree with SnowSultan. When someone has the guts to offer an intelligent constructive criticism, I make a point of IM'ing them with thanks. Anyone who's been to art school knows that critique from peers is a valuable thing...we're too close to our own works to have an objective perspective.

There's an E-Z way to keep the popularity contest syndrome from getting you down: Ignore it. Be better than that. If what you really care about is sharing your images and improving your skills, then there's no reason why the Hot 20 should matter to you at all. There's no point in being jealous of those who get zillions of praiseful comments for everything they post. Disconnect your ego from the number of views your images get.

I don't check the Hot 20 frequently, but there have been a few cases in recent memory when I saw renders by artists (e.g. SophiaDeer and BigT) there who truly deserved to be there, people who earned the honor by virtue of their work rather than by playing kiss-kiss games, but my general feeling about it is that it matters not a whit. It's a nice accolade when deserving artists earn it, but unfortunately, the voting process does appear to be taintd by various behaviors that have been disussed ad naseum in the past.

Another thing you can to is to conduct yourself according to your convictions. Post comments that actually say or mean something substantial. If you vote, vote for images that truly impress you for some reason that you can articulate to yourself, not because you want to return some favor or boost some friend's ego. So many Poser artists complain about not getting as many views as they'd like to, but to my mind, their perspective is askew. Other galleries get far less views. There are things posted to the 2D, Vue, and Bryce galleries, to name a few, which are remarkable! They get far fewer views than some Poser images of lesser aesthetic value, or which take less effort and talent to achieve. This community is way too large for the childish behaviors to be eliminated. Set a good example, conduct yourself with a conscience, then you can be content and proud that you're not one of the phonies.

I guess I joined up a little too late to fully understand the meaning of the infamous pink pony, although I do remember a Legume pony image or two that sparked controversy.

Crescent is right on the money with her High School comment. That's the way I've been seeing this place lately, too. And it's one of the reasons I don't even look at the galleries unless someone I know has specifically asked for my opinion. Basically, I don't give a rat's behind about the galleries. I currently have two images up, and that's only because I don't want someone accusing me of being a "troll" if I should ever happen to comment on an image someone has pointed out and they don't like what I said. I've never claimed to be an artist, don't want to be an artist, will slap the daylights out of anyone who accuses me of being an artist, but that doesn't mean I don't know what looks pleasing to my eye and what doesn't. I also don't care about public opinion. I can't stand Picasso or Jackson Pollack. I think their work is garbage and wouldn't give you two cents for one of their paintings. I also think that people are entitled to like their work, but I reserve the right to think that they're morons if they do. :) Kate (who learned in six years of art classes that she can't draw her way out of a paper bag)

I'll throw my hat in with xoconostle and Snow on this one. Personally, I (like everyone else) like to know when something I've done pleases, interests or inspires someone, but I also just (if not more) interested in constructive critisism and I try to comment the same way (I comment less often than I used to, but try to limit fluffiness when I do). I guess my advise is to ignore what you think is 'fluff' and Lead The Way to changing things if you think they need changing. Leave helpful comments, leave praise when it's appropriate and/or something inspires you and just try to be tactful with your critisizm (I'm hopeing I spelled that right in one of the two times I used the word... speaking of which, don't bother corekting my speling ;).

I actually did and experiment about this kind of thing.. I do get a fair amount of comments usually..not many of them are constructive critiques unfortunately =/ For a couple of days I posted images to the gallery under a different name.. and I got about a 3rd of the comments I usually get. Alot of ppl then pointed out that it was because alot of ppl missed the art cause they didn't have the new name on theur favourite artists list.. This is sad! There are so much good art out there done by the not so well known ppl.. the fact that it's overlooked is awful! Come on everybody isn't wellknown at the start.. I know theres an awful lot of images posted every day.. but please try to at least look through the gallery on a regular basis..

It's hard to look through the galleries everyday. I have to balance school, work, and other life stuff with even getting to renderosity or having time to play with poser. I don't keep up with particular artists so for me its not a popularity issue. When I post new images that's when I usually backtrack a couple of days to see what people are producing. But its hard to keep up with everyday. BTW, the people who might be considered "popular" probably take full advantage of the forum by posting threads with WIPs. That way people know what you are working on and can give advice. But that's my two cents. I'm not all too sure of who's popular and who isn't.

I have made constructive criticism before and was shot down for it. The problem is what you write on line is not what you are thinking. What I mean by that is, it sounds good to you in your head but when you type it out and post it, it does not always read the same and even you can pick areas in the text that may be taken the wrong way. I do not make too many comments now which I find to be a shame. I think there are things I could teach people to do with their graphics software (not so hot in poser but I do know my way around photoshop and psp as I teach people to use them on a regular basis) What I will do is spend some time going through all the people who have posted here, checking out their galleries and leave comments if appropriate.

Heh, had a feeling this wasn't gonna be one of those "3 reply" threads when I saw it. I'll just add that I pretty much agree with what xoconostle said about the popularity syndrome: ignore it if it bothers you. That works for a lot of stuff actually. The whole popularity syndrome thing...yeah, it's something that's definitely present and I do notice it, sure. But in the end, is it something that I really concern myself with? Not really. I'll post pictures occassionally, not to hear gushing praise but because I like fiddling with Poser occassionally and figure I may as well share some of the pics. Not really under any illusions about the level of my "art" but I figure if someone else likes it or thinks it's cool, then great. You know what though, it does seem like there are a LOT more people posting to the galleries these days. With people pressed for time and so much stuff to look at, a lot of folks probably just see what their favorite artists are up to and don't spend too much time on the "other" stuff.

I must confess that alot of times I will get angry after I post an image and it barely gets comments. I don't feel my work is at all near Top20 work but I don't understand why I get a average of like 6-7 comments. If you think about it...how long does it take to leave a comment. Like...10 seconds max? I have to admit that I have been lazy before in not leaving comments but everyone gets busy at times. Miyu, that sounded like a great idea. I too was wondering what would happen if someone actually did that. Glad you experimented! I guess we just have to keep at it though! Don't give up, one day... :)

I am fairly new to Poser and am grateful for any comments that I get which can help me to improve. I would only wish that people did just that - gave helpful and constructive advice. Thats my pennyworth!! Angela.

I agree with all those people who said that Steve Shanks, Sams3D, and Dr. Geep are incredible resources!!! As for advises -- I got a lot of them. People who visiting my gallery mostly prasing my images -- and I am happy -- because I work hard on my images and I really want that people enjoy my images. And I get advises by IM-ing to people and asking questions!!! With a very few exceptions, I mean there are people who just simply ignore my IM -- I mostly get very good advices and I learn a lot!! BonBonish

I have to say that i don't get many viewings and that many comments, but I have received comments from some very established people here who are true artist. To them I say thank you. For the others of you, if you'd click something besides pretty vicky pics, you might actually see something you like or think is cool....Because a pic is scifi or has a male subject, instead of a flowing haired vicky, does not mean it took any less work. I have sold several pics here locally for more that I ever imagined, so I know I'm doing something right, as are many others who are ignored.

OK, establish a critic's panel. TigerShark claimed to be a professional, and at least a couple of people found his comments helpful so he can chair it and recruit a couple of other worthy citizens. Each week, people can submit an image (anonymopusly) and three or four will be chosen at random. The panel members will each give their take on the chosen images in an open thread and then everyone else can add their comments if they choose. So, more people will get a chance for a focused critique of their work, it will serve as a seminar and open discussion on criticism and since the submissions will be anonymous, no one will be embarassed. Anyone who feels they have the right stuff to be a critic can apply to be on the panel and the membership will change every few months.

wow, i didnt think this thread would get so many replies, and all of you make wonderful points. the top20 thing only bothers me in the aspect of how it is acheived for some. and i very much agree that alot of the artists who get on there totally deserve it. but every now and then ill work on a pic, and it will come out great , (in my mind at least), and no matter how recognized i am, or how many people have me on their favorites, or what time of day i post it, i have never once been in the top20. for a while i was making pics based on that fact and all i wanted was to break into it at least once. i long since have quit caring, and have been making only what makes me feel something. And i will keep entering contestsand keep making pics and posting them. i love praise just as much as anyone else, but when something seems a bit "off" or someone has helpful advice, i want to hear it too.:)~isis~~

blessed_isis, On the popularity thing... If the reason you are doing art is to please other people, then the idea that you must be popular(amongst the community here) is relevant. You must play the political game. It doesn't matter if your images are good, just that you play the game. If the reason you are doing art is to please yourself, then ignore whether or not you get comments or views. If the reason you are doing art is to use the latest prop/vic-mike texture/clothing, well then just keep on keeping on. Post lots. The more images you post the more likely you are to be asked to beta test. It's a good way to get stuff free. If you are doing images/art to make money, then leave Renderosity FAR behind. The class/type/content of images posted here are not what is required in professional illustration. Unfortunately, in order to get viewings/comments, you must conform to the type that is posted here and that is diametrically opposed to what publishers and design houses are looking for. To sum up, decide why you are producing your art.

it's easy to improve the art in the gallery and to increase the time spent crusing the galleries. just limit the number of post per week to 3 per person! the artist will spend more time working on and improving the pics making the overall gallery way better then it is now. and, slightly reducing the number of images to go through. which are huge, especially if your on dial up.

Blessed Isis, the hot 20 is okay, but not all too important in the big picture. The funniest thing is - the day I quit caring about the hot 20 is the day I actually made it in. it was like 5 minutes of pure joy followd by an overwhelming feeling of "so now what". The sad truth is that champaign did not fall from the sky, and there were no trumpet blowing angels there to welcome me in lol In all honety, I think someones voting button got jammed or something lol The real reason I wanted to post in this thread was to thank you for starting it. It really made me think about my own artwork, what category I fall into, and what direction I want to go in in the future. I have had some recent success with my artwork here, but I do not consider myself popular. It certainly is nice to see all the great comments, but it means alot when someone cares enough to point me in the right direction (towards improvement). Thank you Blessed Isis, Jane

Well.....might as well throw my 1.5 cents in here. :D Seeing Renderosity as a relatively new member, I guess I can agree with most of what has already been said. I don't get very many views or comments, and sometimes it bugs me, but more often than not it doesn't bother me at all, because I am so new that I think the majority of the stuff I have put out so far is not very good compared to some of the amazing work I have seen here. Plus each pictures takes about a week or more for me to do. I try to comment as much as possible, although lately some medical issues have prevented me from being online as much. I am very guilty of leaving 'fluffy' comments, myself, although I have offered suggestions in the past. I haven't been shot down for them, but all of those types of comments received no reply at all. shrug But I REALLY appreciate it when people offer me constructive criticism, it can only help me get better. Most of the time I NEED someone else to tell me what I have done wrong, because I have been looking at an image for so long I can't see the temple for the naked Vickys. Hehehehe. I did enter a contest in my first few weeks here, and got very wonderful feedback from the nice woman who ran the contest, but then sat back and saw all the people with the most friends get the most votes. I didn't vote for myself, because that seemed counterproductive, so I got no votes. But I had fun making the image, and that was really all that mattered to me in the end...I have never nor will I probably ever be popular in any venue, so this is nothing new for me. grinz Ooops...wrote a book, sorry.

I hope i can speak out without getting slammed.. Why would the limit be 3 per day? it should be One per day. How could anyone make 3 pics in one day? For me anyway it takes several hours just to get my lights exactly the way I want them.

i once made 5 in a day ....... but only once and they were in a series so it wasnt hard to make them ...... but now i make one or 2 a week

Agree with those who'd like a limit on the amount of renders posted. I can't understand how anyone can post 3 in a day. When the whole poll thing was going on about this topic, I did a little quiet research into who posted multiple works in one day. I think I looked at about 200 of the images, working on the What's New section. Of the multiple images, the overwhelming majority were fractals. I'm not dissing fractal art in any way here, I enjoy a lot of it. The remaining multiple posters were often in the 2D or Comics galleries, which I would guess is down to people scanning in a series of drawings and uploading them in one go. Fair enough. For me, it would be unusual to upload more than once a week. I have done it, but usually when I've been on holiday from work! and usually because I've had two or three scenes in my WiP folder and finished them off fairly quickly. But I'd like to see a limit of 3 pics a week at most. In fact ONE a week would be even better. Say I finish (or so I think) a piece, then go to upload. Well darn, can't upload it for two days... so in the meantime, I play with it some more. And I've found coming back to something after a night's sleep often shows me little problems that I didn't catch the first time round. Oh, that shadow is not quite right, or oops, the model's foot looks awkward in that pose. Anyway, just my two penn'orth...

Yay! Bring back the magic pink pony... :P

I am here to learn & that's about it. I'm not intending on offending anyone. I don't spend time "chatting", I have learning to do in what little spare time I have & don't want to use it for frivolity/popularity. I'm 43 and have no intentions of being drawn into ANY type of high school BS or antics. I hated HS and I do NOT play games. Down the road(way down) I have some interest in doing art for $$$$. Now, I'm not talking gallery pieces, just posters/cards, things of this nature...I must learn quickly as I MIGHT have a potential job at an event planning business, doing graphics. I don't comment or "join-in" on anything, I just pop in to post a question/request regarding Poser/Vue which ever applies. So HOT 20...I sure don't care, I don't even look. Maybe once a month I toodle thru the galleries that's about it. I agree with all above about comments, they should be HONEST, as not all of us are here to play, of course thats up to interpetation. I vote for uploading 1 pic per day, however I doubt I will ever do that, I don't see how people can post that much even. It takes me HOURS to just to come with a piece of crap. My 1 cent

Every once in a while what I will do is to go through a genre like "sci-fi" or "abstract" that doesn't usually have pin-ups and make comments.