This may or mayn't be the place to ask this, but the other posts surrounding this topic are in this forum, so it seems the most logical to me - Anyway, I'm a customer of many merchants here, and I've no idea who I've purchased from that might be leaving for other climes... I don't want to muck into the politics of these recent events, but I do want to address a concern that I have as a customer: For merchants who are leaving, have left but are still forum-cruising/etc., are you taking any kind of list with you as far as who your past purchasers are? I have received at least two emails/ebots from merchants here telling me about upcoming updates they are doing on packages that I have purchased. If there are updates, how will us purchasers receive those, or are we just SOL in this regard? Also, let's say that I need to download a product again from my purchase list, but now that item is gone - how does that work, or am I just SOL on this too? I should add that the tone of this note, in my head, is not one that sounds snotty, or bitchy, or offensive/attacking, so pardon the wording if it feels as if I'm trying to instigate, as that is not my intent - I'm merely curious what options as a customer I will have, what expectations are realistic... My other concern is that I have an embarrassing amount of packages, and whilst I might be able to remember some of the authors of the packages, I may not remember everyone, and what if I need a replacement package, but now I can't remember who its creator was? Does anyone know if 'sity will allow our past purchases to still exist on our account page even if it has no file associated with it any longer? Thanks!

Just for the record. Less than...yes, less than 1% of the merchants have left. Your downloads will still be available even if the merchant leaves. However, I would recommend making master CD's of your purchases. Our product availability policy is as follows: "Product availability : Once a product has been purchased and downloaded the customer has accepted the merchandise. Renderosity will try to make the product available for future downloads if needed but we can not guarantee the product will be available. We suggest that you archive your purchases after downloading them." Clint

Giana, I took the liberty of reseting all your previous downloads sp you can archive purchases as needed. Clint

Well, gosh, that was thoughtful... thanks so much, Clint... And in a number of 1000-1100 merchants, those 10 to 11 people, knowing my luck, will all be folks I've purchased from... lol... Still, that's good to know :)) Thanks for the quick response to my question regarding the Purchase page... still curious what merchants who have left, are considering leaving, blah blah, are planning to do regarding previous customers and product updates - if people have even thought far enough ahead about such matters...

Giana, I don't know about the other merchants, but I keep a master list of member names and what they bought so that I don't send updates for the wrong product to the wrong people. That just seems like the most sensible way to me. I know you're not one of my customers, but I would think that I'm not the only merchant who does this. At least I HOPE I'm not the only one. :) Kate (who has more of a niche product than mainstream)

When someone purchases something, the creator gets an ebot to let them know a sale has been made and to whom. I save all my ebots so I will have a record of who my customers are. I would hope most merchants do that, or something similar.

I too keep all my ebots regarding customer purchases...both in my mail archive and in hard copy, twice. So I think I'm covered as far as keeping my customers close... :-)

Hi! I have a list of all my customers. Renderosity also allows you to generate a report of your purchasers - you can also download a .csv file and import it into a spreadsheet to work with it easily. My Product List was: Laced Up MaidenWear SyndiHair TribalWear (and II) StarVixen NetherGear DarklingWear DarklingWear: Mystikal Feel free to contact me with any concerns, comments or questions at josef@thenetherworks.com On a footnote, I hold Clint, JeffH and the staff here in high regards. Though my decision to move partly has ethical considerations, we all have to do what's best concerning our businesses and their future development.

hmm, when I think of the money you claim you're losing... why do you leave? Wouldn't it be smarter to just go non-exclusive? You could easily make up the money by selling the same product at other stores. oh well... I expect the same thing to happen this year as last... a small minority of vendors screaming how they are leaving in righteous indignation, only to see the majority of them crawling back to sell here some months later. g

hmm... not claiming a thing here, nor will you see me crawling ;) Sometimes, we have to do what makes us comfortable - whether those decisions fit in a purely business-minded mold or not.

I agree with Netherworks - merchants have to do what they feel is best for their business. I've always run the MP as an open area. Where I dont hold hard feelings towards any merchant that spreads their wings to try other brokering sites. I am always supportive of merchants trying other sites. I also welcome them back with open arms if they decide to come back to the MP. Clint

it is only my observation... it happened last year. Shook my head then... shaking it now :/ personally I am a believer of selling product at the various sites, including this one. Some products are good for sale here, some aren't, it just depends on what it is.

I would guess it's the principal of it, not just the financial aspects. When ethics actually plays a role. ;)

Yep. I save the ebots too. So I have a record of who my customers are and what they purchased. I will always support everyone who purchased from me, whether here or someplace else. Laurie

so what's the principle of it? Ethics? Bah... Renderosity has every right to do what they did... I still don't really get it. To me it all seems like a huge miscommunication on the matter. They made a business decision. Sometimes necessary business decisions suck, but they have to be made. R'osity did away with the exclusive cut for all but the top selling merchants. Well, it sucks, it does look like its not fair, but honestly... I can see why they did that. Can't have the cream of the crop going to another store... you know. Its a reward for their sales figures. Every place I worked at in sales gave higher rewards for higher sales figures. So ... what. In fact, I think that Renderosity should just give the higher cut only to vendors they think are likely to draw in more sales... so I don't really disagree with the idea. There are other matters that are far more important to me than the percentage. I'd be far more brutal with what I allowed in the store from merchants, brutal with what I allowed to stay if it wasn't selling, plus very brutal with copyright, you guys would likely hate me a lot... lot... LOT more... ggg And one of ya got to find this out about Mehndi the hard way at PoserPros already... check General Discussions for the thread. (and yeah... I agree with what she did, fyi) fact is, there's just too many merchants right now... Renderosity is probably better off losing a few for a while. Hate to be brutally honest... but I guess what I consider good business ethics are somewhat different.

Bah? Surely they did what they felt is best. Possibly things could have been tightened up other ways first or things could have been communicated with more finess. Regardless, this is all in the past now. I'm not pairing ethics and business. I don't agree with what has been done - but I leave it at that - that I disagree with the moves made. I've never said that they do or don't have the right to do anything. But; for reasons right or wrong, skewed or in-line; every merchant has prerogative to sell with whom they want.

I have another request or question for the merchants that are leaving. Are you taking the time to notify all of your customers so we will know where to find you? I sure hope so, because the one thing that I liked about Rendo marketplace was I could find all of you in one place. I simply do not have the time to start chasing you all around the net. So PLEASE notify your customers where you have decided to put your merchandise. Either by IM or by email, do NOT put it in a thread somewhere that we may or may not find it. Thanks and good luck to all of you, I'm sorry to see this happen. Pendy

Pendy: I tried to send an e-mail to all my customers, letting them know I was leaving and where to find me. Renderosity declined my request to have the e-mail sent. They now scan and decide what mail is sent out and what isn't. While it seems to be helpful for stopping SPAM, it appearantly is also useful for censorship. EA

That's very interesting isn't it? I have gotten an IM from one or two of my merchants but that is it, you might try that way also. That's okay, you can always come back and post in the Product Showcase Forum :)

Yes, EA, I toyed with doing this too. But I pretty much figured that's what would happen. :)

Gee, I can't imagine why Renderosity would be reluctant to have merchants advertise via emails that they are going to other sites to sell. Let's count how many sites advertise their competitors for free. Hmmm...I can't think of any. But Renderosity does let merchants from any site advertise for free in the Product Showcase. That seems fairly liberal to me. I don't like seeing favorite merchants leave to other sites, but I think it is unrealistic for those merchants who have made that choice to feel they have a right to advertise the other site using all of Renderosity's resources. Certainly Renderosity gains nothing from having that much good will about the whole thing. The merchants have choices to make, just like the administrators here do, and just as the customers have. Renderosity is under no obligation to advertise for free other sites. The customers are under no obligation to follow the merchants to other sites. I'm afraid the responsibility for maintaining customer lists rests with the merchants themselves...the cost of doing business. That is a reality of any site, not just this one. The merchants who are leaving are making their choices...sorry, guys, you have to live with the results of those choices, which may include the tedious notification process on your lonely.

dialyn: "Let's count how many sites advertise their competitors for free. Hmmm...I can't think of any" I can. PoserPros runs free banner ads for Poser community websites, including Renderosity. Free advertising for competitors. dialyn: "But Renderosity does let merchants from any site advertise for free in the Product Showcase." PoserPros does not restrict advertising in any way, not even to a specific forum. Threads are not moved around, posts are not deleted. And if one of our merchants left, they could freely post the information to their customers via any means available on PoserPros to let their customers know where they went. It's all about community. Who is, and who isn't.

Then I congratulate PoserPros. I said I didn't know of any...that's nice that PoserPros does that. Each site has its own rules. I don't frequent PoserPros forums so of course I wouldn't know what their rules are...I can only go by the newsletters I've gotten from PoserPros and the postings here from Mehndi and her supporters to draw my conclusions about their business practices. I am pleased to know I am in error, and I happy to be corrected. But the point still holds. It is not PoserPros responsibility nor is it Renderosity's to notify a merchant's customers that a merchant is moving. This week I spent over $200 in merchandise various sites. Probably not the most ever spent, but certainly not the least. I guess it is up to the merchants to decide if I am a customer worth keeping or not. If they choose to ignore me, then I will happily buy elsewhere. If they take the time to let me know what is going on (as ElectricAardvark has always been courteous enough to do) then I am more likely to follow them even if they go to a site that I normally would not purchase from. Every one has choices. A site can choose to not have me as a customer, and that's fine. So can a merchant. And that's fine. What isn't fine is that a merchant or site complain that it is Renderosity's fault that I don't buy elsewhere. That was my point. That's all for me.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12395&Form.ShowMessage=1438769

I'm sadly easily swayed by coupons and sales. lol...ah the mystic lure of a sale.

grin The siren song!! The potential of a few bucks saved, maybe. :D

{{{{{Let's count how many sites advertise their competitors for free. Hmmm...I can't think of any. But Renderosity does let merchants from any site advertise for free in the Product Showcase. That seems fairly liberal to me.}}}}} Just a heads up Dialyn, check your facts before speaking my friend. On my site we have ALWAYS let our competitors advertise anywhere they like, we don't even force them to use one specific forum for advertising. And we run a FREE banner ad for Renderosity itself, who refused to return they favor, hilariously claiming they were "out of banner ads"!!!! ROFLMAO! FYI... my husband wrote the banner ad code in this site, you can NEVER be out of banner ads ;)

How in the world would one on the net be out of banner ads to begin with??....ummm...write another one? ~LOL~

I'd like it pointed out that (a) I already congratulated PoserPros on its business practice and (b) Mehndi is not my friend and (c) the lecture was unnecessary because I had already conceded I did not do the indepth analysis demanded by the PoserPro fans and rubbing my nose in it really does nothing except make me want to bite back. So I will. Mehndi, you don't have to worry about my money dirtying your bank account again. It means giving up some merchants that I value highly but I am so tired of your self-righteous attitude and those awful newsletter editorials on the wonderment of being your perfect self that I really can't spend anymore money there in good conscience. But it's okay, I'm sure you'll never miss me. Flame on, people. I won't be reading it anyway.

Dialyn, for me to correct a false assumption is not me being self-righteous, and I am truly sorry you see it that way. Lots of times people seem to interpret my words as me saying we are "better" than other sites. That is a personal frustration to me, since I only deal in simple facts when I speak, and do not use adjectives such as "better". I don't think in those terms either, and merely seek to get the correct facts about what we ARE like on PoserPros out into the open, since there is so much misperception of what we are really about. We have no war going on other sites, we do not think we are better, and we try hard to reach out to other community sites in every way we can. If they don't reach back to meet our hands halfway, then there is nothing more we can do. If the word "better" comes to anyones mind, and I find that seems to be the most often false attributed adjective, it was not said by me or my staff (some of which are staff on both sites, and almost all sell on both sites), but instead is a word coming out of the minds of the person who is thinking they are hearing that word in our words. That in and of itself should be examined. I am sorry if I have offended you by my very presence in this thread, I had not noticed my husband and you had spoken earlier, since I had not had time to read all the thread... huge busyness right now, my fault totally for skimming the thread.

I really need to get my tail over to PoserPros more often..been a bit slack :(....altho I have many friends here..it seems this is a sinking ship..sad really... Dialyn..I wasn't flaming ya, honest..I was just snickering about 'rosity claiming to 'run out of banner ads' ;) Mehndi..{hopefully this post wont 'suddenly disappear' ;) but ya need any 'newbie' merchants over there at your site? :D...I cant trust this one..

chuckles We all were "newbies" once upon a time jumpstartme2 :) We work very well with newbies, it is one of our primary focusses for existence, a chance to work with newbies and teach them good methods in product production from the start :) You are always welcome :)

Kewlies! ;) Thanky Mehndi :)

Does anyone think it is rather ODD - that Renderosity does not censor Owners of other sites to come into the Renderosity forum and bad mouth the way the Admins run Renderosty??? - Not only in the Rendeoristy Forum, but also in their newsletter ...

This only makes me think higher of Tim and Tammy for not stooping to that level!

You do not see any of the Rosity Admins posting derogatory comments in other Site's Forums on how horrible the admins of that site are running things!

You do not see Renderosity Admins posting derogatory commentary about other sites in the Rosity newsletter!

This is one reason that I Prefer to remain a member of Renderosity and Not the other sites! The Rendeorsity Admins have integrity!

Is the Rosity Site perfect! No way - No Site Is!
But they do listen to the members.
Members get an unlimited amount of free gallery space
Members get unlimited space to post their tutorials
Members can showcase their free items
Merchants have a place to sell their goods
Members get a huge variety forums to help solve software problems

If Renderosity's Admins were as controling and ruthless as the minority keep saying they are - Why do they allow members to post threads like this one??? Do you Suppose the answer to that question is because they are fair-minded and Really DO CARE about the Rosity community and its members???

Sigh -
ladynimue

Integrity?!! ahhahahahhahhahhahhahhahahaaa ahhem, pardon me. While I have as yet to buy a stolen item by accident, (crosses fingers) I have seen time and again what happens when other people buy stolen goods here. They don't get their money back. And while I'm not a merchant here, I have seen again, the angst that merchants have gone through when Renderosity has done some arbitrary changes, like the fact that it doesn't financially pay to be Exclusive here any longer, what with the sudden 10% cut.

Ladynimue, I am curious if it is my newsletter you have taken such umbrage with, since as far as I know, mine is the only one that bothers to include an article of an editorial nature, and this past week introduced a new feature, the first chapter of an ongoing series of articles from an Admin Handbook I am writing. If so, I think you are over-reacting just a tiny bit, and personalizing things that are not meant personally. My first chapter of my book titled "On the Care and Feeding of Online Communities" is not aimed at you, nor any particular admin, nor any particular site. I have found an empty space and decided to fill it is all. The "empty space" is that there is no formal ethics training manual on running Online Communities available for Admins, unlike similar training manuals for Mushes and MUD Wizards and roleplay communities. So, seeings as how ethics theory and philosophy has always been an interest of mine, I have decided to write one, chapter by chapter, and run it as an ongoing article in my newsletter. It is certainly not meant as criticism of any one admin, nor any one site, but meant to provoke thought and self examination by admins on ALL sites, including my own, were we too must examine our ways of doing things, and our actions, in our ever present quest to do the right thing and indeed, act with integrity in all our actions and decisions. I find it interesting that you are so grievously offended by ethics training material, when so many others have written praising the handbook, asking if I plan to continue it, and one person even asking for redistribution rights, meaning permission to repost it to all the other communities they attend. For those of you who do not get my newsletter, and wonder why she is so distraught, here is the first chapter of the new handbook that I think has her so worked up. ========================================================== Leadership Ethics 101: On the Care and Feeding of Online Communities By Liz Birdsong-Cook I must follow the people. Am I not their Leader? ~ Benjamin Disraeli Community Administrators have a considerable amount of power. With that power comes the responsibility to use it wisely, for the actions of an administrator reflect not only on himself, but also on the community as a whole. You can't have a happy Community unless you have happy community members. We, as leaders must never lose sight of this basic fact. It's been said that every online community is a dictatorship, and that the members have no inherent Rights, but only enjoy such Privileges as the Dictator (and his chosen servants and advisors) see fit to grant them. Even if this were true in theory, it would be a very unwise leader that would "show his hand" and let it be known for a fact. If you must be thought of as a dictator, far better to be perceived to be a benevolent dictator than one who coerces people to your will. If a community member "feels" like a valued citizen of a nation with an enlightened government, he's not likely to spend a lot of time worrying about philosophical questions such as, "If the Admins wanted to ban me without warning for nothing, could they get away with it?" But if you start stepping on the member's toes in an overt way, he's liable to rebel. Remember, unlike such Real Life dictatorships as Cuba, China, and North Korea, being a part of your community's population is a strictly voluntary matter and any citizen can "defect" at any time, without the slightest warning. Accordingly, it behooves you to do your level best to make sure they don't really WANT to. Management is doing things right; Leadership is doing the right things. ~ Peter F. Drucker

Thanks for your reply Mehndi However, you assumed wrong, and that was not the newsletter I was referring to. Sincerely, ladynimue

Well Ladynimue, seeings as how I get all the community newsletters from other sites, and read them with avid interest, and have not noticed ANYONE besides myself mentioning "Admins" as you phrased it, I am a little hard put to figure out what newsletter has you so upset then. Other than PoserPros, so far as I know, all the other newsletters are just store listings mostly. Not editorialistic nor political in nature. I think I'm the only one publishing a "political rag" ;p

watches the ruckus quietly

But they do listen to the members ROTHFLMAO!! ahem....sorry... If 'Rosity listened to its members even half the time, things like this thread would never crop up IMHO.

Oh, and Mehndi, I like that newsletter..keep up the good work!

Shaking head "Does anyone think it is rather ODD - that Renderosity does not censor Owners of other sites to come into the Renderosity forum and bad mouth the way the Admins run Renderosty??? " They may not badmouth but they do censor them Ladynimune.. take a walk in history.. Hmmm but a lot of that history and the history of this site is gone because of the censorship you say they don't do "But they do listen to the members." Ohhh really? Have you forgotten the recent merchant walkout, the one before that? or are merchants not members? "Merchants have a place to sell their goods" Let's not even go there.... "Why do they allow members to post threads like this one??? Do you Suppose the answer to that question is because they are fair-minded and Really DO CARE about the Rosity community and its members???" One Word.. NO They care about the all mighty dollar. The rest sorry is lipservice. I do not know how long you have been around LadyNimune.. but this site has a sorid history one of Dictatorship and censorship. One where the real history has been changed to clean up their image. Not reality. Take a walk in history sometime.. And they are still doing it.

I don't know where my post went but....

"Does anyone think it is rather ODD - that Renderosity does not censor Owners of other sites to come into the Renderosity forum and bad mouth the way the Admins run Renderosty??? "

Those other site owners were once very active and very supportive members of this site. They were instrumental in building it up to what it is now. (or in my opinion, was) As such, they really do have just as much right to complain as anyone else. And right now, like it or not (and I don't like it), there have been a lot of things to complain about. It's not like these complaints lately aren't justified.
Besides, there's no censorship on the flip side either. :)

Ladynimue; Not that I really want to stir up another ****storm, but there's something I feel needs saying: The Rendo Admins we deal with don't make the final policy decisions. The PTB do. I can say with all honesty that I've had nothing but positive experiences in dealing with any of the visible Admins or Moderators. They do everything they can to handle problems professionally, courteously, and wherever it is in their power, expediently. However, their proverbial hands are tied...they have to work with the edicts handed to them. I had a similar position, in a customer support related field. I was trained, given all sorts of wonderful tools, and then given a 4-inch think manual on proper use of those tools. Or, I should say, what I couldn't do. The policies were written so poorly, and so self-centeredly (is that a word?), that it was literally several hundred pages of "the customer is a liar, the customer is a thief, the customer has no rights regardless of the money the pay us"... I was a parrot trained to repeat various iterations of "Sorry, I can't help you." After several failed attempts to get the policy-makers to review and revise their policies, I quit. Guess what? I did the same thing here...our store is gone. If you're not going to listen to a lot of people telling you you're wrong, you deserve what you get, and it won't be support from me. Renderosity, like it or not, is a service provider. They don't acknowledge this, they don't accept it, and they damn sure don't act like it. They make policy changes without consulting the people who are providing the majority of their revenue (TELL me they make more with banner ads and sponsorships, and I'll laugh for a week...I'm in this business). And when those same people raise their voices, individually or collectively, they're summarily ignored, supressed, or outright expunged. You haven't seen a lot of it this time because some of the voices raised are very prominent...making them 'disappear' would make them martyrs, and only prove the point. Rendo wants the best of both worlds: A cash cow they can milk for all it's worth, and a quiet, submissive constituancy that they can bend over whenever, wherever, and however they please. Guess what? Can't have it both ways...and eventually they'll learn that the hard way. Hell, the website of the PARENT COMPANY doesn't even mention Renderosity anymore. Gotta ask yourself: What are they hiding? Just my thoughts on the matter... David 'ChromeTiger' Hebbe Presto Productions

well said David :o). Laurie

Attached Link: Bondware

I'm not going to get into the whole matter here.. Just follow the link and you can see Renderosity is is "mentioned" on the Bondware site.. That is a fact.....

"I have found an empty space and decided to fill it is all. The "empty space" is that there is no formal ethics training manual on running Online Communities available for Admins, unlike similar training manuals for Mushes and MUD Wizards and roleplay communities. So, seeings as how ethics theory and philosophy has always been an interest of mine, I have decided to write one, chapter by chapter, and run it as an ongoing article in my newsletter. " Mehndi - I hope that you are able to balance the ethics side and the business side without those areas getting clouded by perception of others. Some might ask how ethicial is it for other site admins... -to use other sites features to promote ones own -to feed off another community's issue to generate more members for oneself -to pretend to care about one community in order to gain more for oneself -to encourage others to post on other communities in order to build or continue a false sense of negativity within that community. It can be a very difficult issue. I understand that these might not be considered ethical approaches to take, but on the business side it is considered a competitive approach and is fine. I hope that admins of other sites don't have to make difficult business decisions similar to ours, but if they do - No site will hear from us or our team because...it is our policy not to post negative commentary on other sites. There is a lot of posts on our site that we do not agree with but the members have the right to speak as long as the TOS is followed. In the end, we rely on the members to distinguish between motivated self-interest and constructive critism. tammy

Well here is some constructive criticism. It is not right to benefit from stolen goods.

I am not Staff/Admin or a Merchant anywhere. I am no one's shill. I shop wherever the object that I need is at at the best price/deal. But I am not blind to the things that happen. I don't see how this- "to use other sites features to promote ones own" can possibly be related to ethics. I have seen Renderosity Banner ads at Poserpros, and if I remember correctly, you don't pay for them, and that is 'using another site's features to promote one's own'. That is common practice, and doesn't really harm anyone. A little competition is a good thing. I'm not quite sure how this works- "to feed off another community's issue to generate more members for oneself" If someone from Renderosity decides to stop being exclusive and go to Poserpros to sell, is Poserpros supposed to turn them down?! I haven't seen an Ad Campaign from PoserPros that relates to this- something like "Join us, Renderosity Sux, just look at how they treat their merchants and anyone who has bought stolen goods there" "to pretend to care about one community in order to gain more for oneself" To pretend to care for a community? As I understand it, Mehndi put in a ton of work here!! before she couldn't handle compromising herself anylonger and went off to start Poserpros. She then put in a great deal of effort to get the Community going there. Nevermind the heart problems she had while she was at it. I see her over at her forums helping out new artists and new merchants. She actually seems to care about the people and the ART. I don't see you, Tammy, or Tim, being that helpful in your forums or doing any actual Art. She also gives refunds to those who have purchased stolen items at her store. ;) Heck, even Daz has that 30 day money-back guarantee! So Daz cares too. :) Renderosity needs to change. "to encourage others to post on other communities in order to build or continue a false sense of negativity within that community" I actually read several forums, including here and all of Poserpros. (I know, I need a life) anyways, nowhere have I seen posts from Mehndi asking us to speak up against the injustices in this world, er I mean, at Renderosity. ;) And once again, no, Mehndi does not owe me any money. :D In fact, if you look at my posts I usually go on about how great Daz is. tee hee Let me add, Runtimedna is a pretty nice place too. I'm an equal opportunity activist. :D

Tammy, just how "ethical" is it to keep 50% of the money on stolen goods while hanging your customers out to dry?

How "ethical" is it to completely ignore the members whom you owe to building up your "business" while only posting to argue with targeteted members?

At least pass the blind spots around with more accuracy.

Hi Tammy, You have basically asked the age-old question of "What makes the philosopher more insightful in life than the student? What makes the ethics teacher more moral than those he teaches? What makes the religion instructor less sinful than his congregation?" The answer, simply put, is nothing. It is only through a constant internal struggle with right and wrong that the teacher has ever gained any insight to pass on to others. For those who like myself, are religious, it might be said it is only through a constant struggle with good and evil, that through the grace of God, the teacher, sinful as they are, has been given any insight into matters that others can learn from. If this student is transformed through their own soul searching into a teacher of others, then stands forth to speak on right and wrong, does it make them a hypocrite since they too are surely a sinner? The Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and deserve death, and it is only through God's own grace that any will be saved. I submit it is also only through God's grace that any human has any insight or wisdom in philosophical or ethical matters to pass on to others through council. Based on this premise, one is never truly qualified to council others on matters of ethics, if the qualifier is that they have led a sin free life. If the qualifier instead is that they have felt deep remorse for the times they were wrong, and have spent a great deal of time soul searching, and trying to figure out what went wrong, and what the right thing to have done was instead, then perhaps humans, and even me, are qualified to speak from experience, if not blamelessness. But, you asked a few specific questions. I will endeavor to answer those as best I can. "Some might ask how ethicial is it for other site admins...to use other sites features to promote ones own?" I am not sureYou tell me? Renderosity accepts a free banner ad on PoserPros that advertises Renderosity and it's Marketplace, but does not return the favor. Albeit, and this IS VERY IMPORTANT, we never demanded that the favor be returned as a condition of offering a free banner ad to Renderosity. So they are technically blameless. Please people, remember that. "Some might ask how ethicial is it for other site admins... to feed off another community's issue to generate more members for oneself" I accept all who come to PoserPros with open arms, regardless of their past and where they are coming from. They are even given a clean slate to start over with if they have a bad past. I never overtly ask people to come to us because of their issues elsewhere. If they are coming to us due to issues elsewhere however, I will not refuse them entrance to our site, since all are welcome. You are welcome on our site too Tammy. "Some might ask how ethicial is it for other site admins... to pretend to care about one community in order to gain more for oneself?" This is where we differ in our opinions. I truly do care about the Poser and Artistic Community. It is not a pretense. But since you cannot read my heart and mind, nor can I read yours, since only God can read the hearts and minds of others, then perhaps the biblical test should apply to you and to me both. "By their works ye shall know them." "Some might ask how ethicial is it for other site admins...to encourage others to post on other communities in order to build or continue a false sense of negativity within that community?" You confuse passivity with encouragement. We do not delete, censor, lock, move, nor encourage others to post any threads of any particular subject on our site, be it praise or negativity, be it for us, or against us. That is our rule. We live by the rules we made. We do not interfere. The same way I do not interfere with threads that criticize me personally or my staff, I do not interfere with threads that criticize other sites. We have sort of a "Wild, Wild, West" atmosphere on our site, meaning there is not a lot of policing going on, and at one time or another, most everyone carries a big gun and pulls it out and starts shooting. Granted, it is not for everyone, and takes some getting used to. It is just the culture of our site, and it works very well to almost always keep the peace without the need of staff enforcement of that peace, since mutually assured destruction deters even the most ardent flamers. Thank you for bringing up your concerns Tammy, it is always refreshing to be able to discuss philosophical matters, as well as have a chance to explain the misperceptions you have fallen under about what we are all about at PoserPros.