Mine is Fanch Ledan. :)

Actually, speaking on behalf of Epilogue, I've got to say we'd absolutely LOVE it if more Renderosity artists would come and submit their work--yes, including their Poser work. Today, looking through the submitted art, there was about 60% non-digital art, 35% 2D digital art, and 5% sculpture. There was not a single Poser or other 3D software submission--not a one. There IS a reason 3D art is woefully underrepresented at Epilogue: very few 3D artists submit. We (the editors) have nothing against quality Poser art. The administrators mentioned in this thread, from what I can gather, seem to be our chat operators. These people are not editors, and have absolutely no say concerning what gets into Epilogue and what does not. If they have spoken to you this rudely, please send a transcript of the chat to me or to one of Epilogue's site admins (Chad Lockwood is the guy to talk to.) We will deal with that. Our chat ops should not be behaving like that, since "Poser art takes 2 seconds to create" is certainly not Epilogue's official policy. The quote about Poser and Bryce art having to be exceptional to be approved is, I'll admit, some rather unfortunate wording. It was intended to avoid the sort of amateurish work everyone's seen--work which really DOESN'T have a lot of effort put into it. That quote is a relic of what was once a much longer paragraph, which included some words about misuse of Photoshop tools, lined paper, and various other artistic blunders. I don't know what happened to the rest of it, but we DO have a much more up-to-date page in our FAQ section now, which explains what the "obvious use of digital tools" message was originally intended to mean. Having seen some absolutely amazing Poser work on Renderosity, as well as stunning work in other 3D programs, I can tell you with perfect honesty that I have nothing against 3D art, or Poser in particular. I've even written for Renderosity magazine twice, and been proud to have my articles displayed alongside those of Poser users. I strongly encourage the starter of this thread to get in touch with myself or Chad about the incident in the chat. Epilogue doesn't condone that sort of garbage in the least.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=Chas

Well, since my post earlier in this thread ("3 out of 4 accepted" etc), not a single thing I've submitted to Epilogue has been accepted. Which is fine, I'm not one to normally fuss over that, but some of the reasons have not made sense to me. Such as "use of copyrighted materials" on pics that use commercial materials I've purchased the right to use and freestuff which allows commercial / non-commercial renders. Naturally, I don't submit work at Epilogue very often anymore, and when I do it's half-hearted. You are welcome to visit my gallery and explain some of the rejection reasons I've received (the exact wording may be off, as I'm going from memory) -- http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=Chas "Arcana V2" ("not fantasy"), "Play Me" ("use of copyrighted materials"), "Erosion" ("obvious use of digital tools") "Subterra" ("poor image quality"), "Masque" ("obvious use of digital tools"), "Incantation" ("use of copyrighted materials"), "Divination" ("use of text in image"), "Night Out" ("poor composition" -- I've received kudos on the composition in this one specifically, elsewhere). Take care; Chas

~sighs~ my last one I submited was also that half hearted {normally I put as the discription that it will be rejected but will submit it anyway} the last one I did was ~in moonlit nights~ one that I was just deliriously pleased with.{god after all these years and I still feel like a five year old when I do one like} and it was rejected for obviouse use of digital tools. that is the reason for all of my past...er...I guess six submissions. the one I thought at least had a real chance {other then ~in moonlit nights} was my ~Gothic Angel~ but nope ...obviouse use of digital tools which I thought was due to her twinkles at the point where metal caught the light but I dont think it was that as I have seen far more tubes and twinkle brushes used in epilogue then I used. so it has left me scratching my head. As I said in the other thread...I just give up. rejection is not a big deal but when it doesnt seem to follow a reason that is when it gets frustrating. Ohh and one pic I submited a pure render..one that I was shocked my puter put out and it was rejected for obviouse use of digital tools..I did have a fit with that one..as I wrote..how could it be obviouse use of digital tools when I didnt touch it!? and ...no reply at all. I dont know in the other thread I gave some suggestions to the rejection phrases but frankly....I just give up.

use of copyrighted materials means you did not used pencil and canvas to 3dmodel the things you used YOURSELF :) (combo joke). of course if you DID things all by yourself, polygon by polygon, with your pencil on the canvas, but you also sold/released as free what you did for other to use, it thus become copyrigthed material too :) advice: let those frantic integrists narrow minded cavemen of epilog where they belong: ELSEWHERE !

Epilogue rejected your work? I dare say the vast majority of images submitted to Epilogue get rejected, that doesn't mean; There's a conspiricy to keep you out. There's a predjudice against certain media. Or that they are Devil-worshiping, goat rodgering snobs. It means, your work was rejected. Disappointing yes, even annoying, but hardly something to get upset about. A part of creating and showing art, is finding places with like-minded people, who ACCEPT and appreciate what you do. Apparently Epilogue isn't the place for you. So what? I'm sure very many people here ( and elsewhere ) appreciate your work. Why bother with Epilogue if you don't get any joy from them? Please don't demonise an entire community, simply because ( in the opinion of the editors ) your work wasn't suitable -for whatever reason, wether you ( or others ) agree with them or not. I understand from comments in the forum ( at Epilogue ), that some of the stated reasons for rejection are hard to understand or simply don't seem to apply. Perhaps that is something that needs to be addressed. The 'obvious use of digital tools' and 'no background', along with 'Not Epilogue quality', being among the most cited. Bear in mind, there are a considerable number of submissions and the editors don't have time to give a fully explained reason for rejection, but use a list of 'standard' rejection messages ( which are obviously not up to the job ).

uhmm where did I say there was a conspiracy...or anything else? many people feel they do not like poser art. I am not the only one that feels that way. so it is not just me please stop making it sound like it is. ok? why is it that is seems that the people from epilogue make it sound like everyone that is not saying they are great is some sort of loon bag?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about being rejected. I can handle that. I've been told by one editor to "feel free to resubmit when you have something of value to show us." Water off a duck's back. It's part of being an artist. What I'm puzzled about is the reasons given. Arcana V2 not fantasy? And the composition comment on Night Out -- I just don't get that. That's all. If they want to reject them for more realistic reasons, I'm fine with that. Just make the reasons make sense. Chas

I really hope I haven't made it sound like everyone who doesn't like our site is some sort of loon bag. You're certainly entitled to your opinion! Chas, unless you were submitting fan art (we don't accept fan art), then someone probably messed up on the "copyright infringement" rejection. Could be they were looking at the wrong picture, clicking the wrong reject message, or simply not paying attention. If you got a copyright infringement rejection for an image that is your work, you can resubmit it. Sorry about that. Renderosity's running very slowly for me today, so I didn't get the chance to check out much of your gallery, but if you want to e-mail more images to me for further clarification, you're welcome to do that--or, if you want more advice, Epilogue has a Work In Progress forum. People there can often see things one might have missed, and help clarify the reasons for rejection.

DarkElegance, I apologise if you see what I said as a personal attack, perhaps I could have worded my comments more diplomaticaly, it certainly wasn't meant to be an attack on you. Rather it is a reaction to the overall tone of threads like this. And O.K. the snob remark was childish. It's obvious you feel you have been treated unjustly, I'm not an editor nor moderator at Epilogue. I have no power or 'axe to grind'. I'm a member of both sites ( and I use poser in my work ). I don't know you or your work, nor am I criticising you. I'm merely trying to understand and perhaps reconcile your ( and apparently many others ) view of Epilogue with my own very different one. As for the conspiracy comment it was in response to you saying; "they wont allow any of my other work in". Again if I interpreted you wrongly my apologies, but goodness gracious, I'm not trying to make you ( or anyone else ) look like a 'loonbag'. I'm perfectly happy to accept people don't like Epilogue, what concerns me are your accusations of double standards and that Epilogue gets 'very mean' if you point them out. It may well be you have a point about inconsistences in judging various submissions, but that is after all a matter of opinion. We have discussed such things at length and always come back to the conclusion; we have to trust our editors judgement. They are volunteers and get a great deal of grief about decisions others don't agree with. In the end someone has to take the responsibility of judging submissions ( I'm to chicken to do it ). Chas we also accept both the rejection messages and the submision guidelines need some work, please try to be patient with us, we're only human. DarkElegance you said; 'Epilogue gets mean' if you point out 'their double standards'? Do you mean the response in the forum ( as the reaction to Bella's post for instance ) or something else? If the former, well that's just forum, I'm sure if accusations of unfairness against Renderosity ( justified or not ) were posted here many people would react 'agressively'. Blimey, just the responses about Epilogue's assumed predjudices have been -shall we say forthright. We're artists, just like you. Let's just try and accept everyone has an opinion about what is and isn't good art and often that will be different than ours. I'm sure no one here would seriously believe all Epilogue members ( or staff ) are prejudiced against a medium, despite some of the things said in the heat of the moment -( these comments are not an attack on anyone or any group ) LOL!

"I'm sure if accusations of unfairness against Renderosity (justified or not) were posted here many people would react 'agressively'." Heh, yeah, on BOTH sides of the accusations! :-) bonni

Ms Myles no it was not you that got me to make that comment. sorry for that. also yes I am geting abit overly sensitive to this but I just keep seeing this attatude from < and let me get this correct this time and be fair myself> SOME of the people from epilogue can be mean and make a person feel as if they are just flat out either not welcome or not wanted. they make it sound like if you didnt like epilogue there is something seriously wrong with you. Look at the thread that was at epilogue. My god I would be near scared to even post in a forum there! if you dont like epilogue you get ripped apart. and I am not one to mince words or cower from a debate! I guess that is my problem with it. I apologize for making a broad band comment of everyone in epilogue. but it is a general feel when you start over there. I think it was this thread..where in the debate about epilogue I did point out some amazing jaww droping work that is done with poser over there. but generally no from the people I have talked to ..from threads like this and others I have seen...the general feel from poser artists is that they are not welcome over there. perhaps that is why not more are submiting there. In the thread about the epilogue debate< the thread in renderosity> I even did as suggested { I think by Ms Myles} to make suggestions for guidlines etc...and I did...about the rejection tags..and sorry but the response..was not friendly at all. and that is the general tone of it. not very friendly at all.

oh and Marked...the comment I made about not leting my work in..that is not a conspiracy that is a statement of actual events. I suppose then that chas is also insinuating a conspiracy because he wrote about his rejections?

I'm sorry to hear you got an unfriendly response--I hope it wasn't from one of the editors. If you e-mail me your suggestions about rejection messages, I will make sure they are seen by the people who can actually change those things. (The editors can't change them--we don't have anything to do with the programming of the site.) Some people on our forum can get a little overenthusiastic in their defense of Epilogue, it's true. Those people exist everywhere, unfortunately--every site's got a few. Try not to let the views of some of our more vocal members influence your opinion of all our members--we are not all bad, I swear!

I explained why I made the assumptions I did and apologised sincerely if they were wrong. I also answered Chas' comment as best I could. I can see you are very angry about this subject, but again can only say I am not attacking you or anyone else. I can see we can't take the discussion forward at present. Admittedly my purpose was to persuade people that your views were either mistaken or simply a misunderstanding and Epilogue has no predjudice, but perhaps only future inter-action with Epilogue would prove ( or disprove ) that. I can only hope that you and Epilogue can find a way forward and wish you all the best in your future endevours.

In any case, I'll second most of what I have read in that thread. Yes, Poser users are often, too often spat at, mocked, and called many pretty names but the one of "artist". Why? Because, I think, we use models that in most cases we do not build ourselves. At some point, every Poser user will us a texture, a geometry or a lightset created by someone else. This gives us, wrongly I agree, the reputation of a bunch of Playskool kiddies. It's very wrong, it's short-sighted, but that's how it is. Now. Just a question. Do these guys who model their stuff within and for 3ds, with and for Maya, make something that deserve to be called art more than what we do? Certainly not. Aristotelician philosophy states that art is imitation. Somehow, it's true, whatever an artist draws, renders, sculpts, he/she will not create absolutely new-to-this-world characters or anything. What changes is the tool and the interpretation of the thematics. Now, if a Maya pro tells me "I am more skilled than you when it comes to building a 3d character" I will agree, that's absolutely true. If he tells me "I am a better artist than you" I'll laugh at him. For starts, art is subjective, "A" will love my work and "B" will say it's crap. As for the very ase of art, ideas not to name them, I know many a skilled 3d modeller or acrylics paintyer artist who can only come up with shitty concepts. Sensibility is the key. Pride is a trap. Long ago in Japan, the legend says, an extremely skilled calligrapher who could write anything on anything, met a small kid. The kid asked him "please, write something for me on the river". The calligrapher wrote on the river. So did the kid, to the artist's surprise... Then the kid asked "write domething on the skies" and so did the artist, who wrote "RYU" (dragon). Then the kid noticed that a stroke was missing. The calligrapher told the kid "put the last stroke, if you would like to." The kid put the last stroke... and the word "Dragon" turned into a real dragon who flew away and faded into the skies... The kid revealed himself to the calligrapher as being the Amida Buddha and vanished. Moral of the story? Whatever you do, and even if you do it very well... there'll be someday a guy who can pick up your tools and outdo you. I'll accept people spitting on Poser the day they can use them themselves in a perfect way, and the day they'll use a tool I cannot learn myself. Ignore the idiots. The more you wanna convince them, the less they listen. It's not anymore about truth or art: it's just about who's got the bigger schlong, for these guys.

hmm well i would like to add my two scents: many skilled people DO model their own 3d characters and items, many DO draw/compose their own textures; now seeign what deepth of expertise and mastery it takes to make DECENT 3d items/chars, or dcent textures, do they ever have really the time to afford to learn some other basics and skills regarding their modelling/3d render software package ? i woudl guess that many modellers would lack the knowledge to use their own items artisticcaly on in real use job, i would say, compared to someone who did not learn to model but learn for example abotu lights, posing, facial expressosn and such. i guess Poser is unique in its own because most of the time you use premade elements of many kinds (light set, poses, items, characters, textures) yet given the sames "bits" and tools, we could see huge difference between even a RAW render of a poser beginner (must begin someday :) and someone who learnt a lot working on Poser. Poser comes with its own share of aspects and skills needed to be mastered and learnt, at various scale and extent (JCM, displacment map, textures, reflexions, materials, shaders, posing, lights, etc), skills that too DO take time to learn. the REAL artistic value in Poser can be found in this fact: Starting with all the same tools (same characters, same textures, sam software), look at how many different raw or postworked renders people can achieve, how many different styles. I saw a couple of artists here on OR who really took out of "basic" mayadoll looks and expressiosn i would barely had imagined this young character to be able of... so painters use brushes and cavans, infographists use stylet and tablet, sculptors use chisels, 3d artists use modeller as their tool. We have a range of tool that usually fall under "result" of work with "tools" for other people. When a good working character is the "artistic" result of the use of a modellist's tools, it becomes a tool for ourselves to use in a different kind of job. many time i was asked by non poser aware people about my work, it was hard to explain.. and when i had to admit that no i did not MAKE the character, NO idid not MAKe the clothes, NO i did not DRAW the textures (well, for some i did :), they stared at me strangely and disgusted :) then i simply brought them at home, and put them in front of poser / runtime installation and my paint software and i told them: oki, i did nothing myself then, so you can do the same.. go for it ! :) strangely enough the results were.. embarassing :)

I have a gallery at Epilogue and I already knew their attitude towards 3D artwork when I started submitting there. I personally take it as a challenge to get Poser and Bryce created artwork accepted there. It just pushes me to try harder to improve.

They're biased anyway. Thy're more or less like a guy who says "I hate pork meat" but will tell you that the dish you cooked is very tasty, that meat you cooked with paprika... until you tell them "err you know... that was pork..." and suddenly they'll go on about how it sucked. Woho, instant moodswing :) Improve for yourself and for people who'll appreciate your work, but trying to "evangelize" people who don't want to hear about Poser could be very energy-consuming for very little benefit. :)