After much thought, I have some ideas that need to be discussed with all of you in regards to the challenge..... First and most importantly setting up some sort of limit on the amount of entries for each person. I would like to see something along the lines of no more than 5-10 entries per person. I think this is more than reasonable and will cut down on the amount of time it takes me to update the pages. I'm not complaining but my time is limited these days, and it took me about three hours to update 8 days worth of entries..... Otherwise I'm seriously considering running the challenge from the contest pages again...it would be much less work, as the member will have to make their own thumbs and everything is done automatically.... We would not have voting so there is no fear of that, but it would not be run from the forum. Secondly there's no doubt that surrealism looks like the winner this month (not official yet!)..... So we need to discuss the way we will handle this one.... Guidelines so to speak on the limitations on the use of Photoshop for creating surrealistic images. While I have no desire to ruin anyone's fun we must expect remember that this is a photo challenge. I would hope that the reliance would be on the camera and not photoshop to create an image. As always the use of 3D, or 2D stock photography is forbidden! This needs to be all your own work.... that has always been a pet peeve of mine in the galleries, it isn't photography if it isn't your photo. Secondly, too much manipulation in my mind, takes this out of the realm of photography and into the world of 2D and Mixed Medium..... and this is Photo Gallery and Forum.... :~) I want to hear your thoughts, ideas and opinions on this please.... Thanks for reading.....

Attached Link: http://www.uelsmann.net/

Oh, My!!!! I hope we don't get into one of those impossible discussions about "What is Art?" and disgruntled folks go off emptying their galleries. None of us need that frustration. We're here to have fun. 5 to 10 seems quite excessive to me. One or three would seem more likely. I'm surprized 'chell stuck through it. Certainly if it makes the mechanics easier, go for it! Still, as this may be a lively topic, nothing should stop one from posting Works In Progress in the Forum. I would hope that would happen as it gives all of us a chance to learn.

hi, i'm easy on the number of entries but i did wonder if it will make it easier on you (michelle) if we made the thumbnails as well. you could put the guidelines down (eg. pixel dimensions) with the contest rules and it could be uploaded when we upload our contest entries...just a thought. i'm not sure how we'll be able to control the photoshop manipulation for surrealism but i'll go along with what's decided.

I hope not either Misha as that was not my intention... :~) I've had a discussion with someone privately who was concerned that the surrealism challenge would turn into entries that were maybe better suited to the Mixed Medium or 2D galleries, and it made me think about the whole thing. I hope that in voicing my own opinions (for that is really all they are) I haven't come across as a b*tch about this... and.... I would hope that people would take this for what it is, simply a discussion of ideas and thoughts.... As I said I don't want to ruin anyone's fun and if Photoshop is what it takes then that is fine! :~) But there are criteria that make an image unsuitable for the Photo gallery and I hope that would also apply to any entries being submitted to the challenge? Namely as I've already said 3D and stock or clip art.... Ahhh Jerry Uelsmann, I love his work....! Guess you've made a very good point, and one I hadn't thought of.... Guess that is why I appreciate you so much... You are a dear one!

Hugz, Dear Michelle.

Ever thought how much work it is for you Dear Michelle to manage the monthly challenge and again I wanted to thank you for all the time you spending on this work. Agree with you on the numbers of entries for the challenge. 3 to 5 should be ok. Also agree with firestorm to put down the guidelines (for example the pixel dimensions). Assume we'll not be able to control the photoshop manipulation for surrealism. But with your points the photographers will think about their works and will post Photography not Photoshopworks. I'll go along with what's decided. Thanks Misha for posting the link to Jerry Uelsmann, he's one of the best and very inspiring! Hugz, Monika

Just to add to Misha's link here's a couple of other ones!

• John Paul Caponigro
• Misha Gordin
• re: number of challenge entry limitations...Michelle, I have stood in awe of how you have managed to put together the challenge entries each month and display all the images submitted with such alacrity! I would think that some form of restraint is very reasonable! Either that or place them on the contest pages again (with no voting)...I do agree with Misha that posting and discussion of W.I.P's is a valuable part of the learning process. Whatever way you do it, you are doing a great job!

I think that Michelle is doing a fantastic job and should be commended for her tireless efforts. I feel that 3-5 images a month is enough and it keeps us trying our best. The original idea to bring the Challenge into the forum was to remove the competition and to encourage comments and critiques. Although the competition has been overcome and the sharing of images has grown dramatically, I see alot of what we see in the galleries; "Great" "Fantastic" "Wonderful". I personally like to have the people of the group actually critique my images. I learn how to improve my art that way. I may not always take the advice given, but I do always listen and better understand how others view my work. This helps me immensely. I would like to see the personal notes come back. I want the criticism. I want to take all that I can from my friends here and incorporate it into my art. If we are only going to keep wonderfully'ing each other, then perhaps moving the challenge back to the monthly pages is a good idea. However, if we can get back to helping each other in greater detail then I say leave it here. Yes, limit the amount of entries, but keep the education. As for Surrealism, well, that is a tough call. Is it art? Absolutely! Is it photography? Maybe. I think it is Photo based art. Some more photo based than others. The link that Misha provided is to some excellent work, and it contains elements of photography, yet I wouldn't call it surreal photography. I would call it Surreal art using photos. It?s still damn good though. Just my two cents. Keep the change! Magick Michael PS ? Michelle, I am familiar with HTML. I would be happy to help any way I can.

Wow! Thanks for the links, PC. [Someone else who knows how to spell "Misha"!]

I agree that limiting the number of images sent in would make it easier on our already hard working mods, so they can have time to actually enjoy the site as much as we out here in dreamlnad do. As for the challenge "surrealism", I feel that some photoshoping might be necessary for some folks (like myself) to finsh off an image. I have an idea in the works that will need some cloning to take out a coat hanger supporting the subject and unless I reshoot, a tree top. I understand the dilema concerning how far can one go untill one crosses the line between a "photo" and a 2d image, but where does one draw the line? Just curious.... Jack

I was not very successful in My Abstract Challenges...for, I honestly failed to Understand...err ...fully. For Surrealism, I have enlisted the help of a Dictionary...which reads: "A 20th-century literary and artistic movement that attempts to express the workings of the subconscious and is characterized by fantastic imagery and incongruous juxtaposition of subject matter. Literature or art produced in this style." From what I understand of this...it is ok for Text and Image to work together....I am truly not trying to be funny...but, a Title such as "Nothing There" ...and an empty Frame....does this suggest Surrealism. Ooh...please don't be cross with Me...I am only as good an Artist as You People made Me. I have it firmly planted in My Head....just One for the Challenge....'cause I'm gonna Win! Michelle's the best....and, I offer help in any way...if it helps for Me to be somewhere else...then ...I will do that too. Hug :]

Tedz, check out the links Misha and I popped up...that might help!
P.S. I sent you an IM regarding "the Cup" at least I hope I did...the IM page came up differently...perhaps I sent an email by mistake....ummm...oh stuff it...ahh sorry Michelle this is off topic but apparently Tedz needs this info!
~ "This has been the coldest October in almost 30 years in Melbourne - so cold, in fact, that even the famous Flemington roses are days behind schedule and will not be blooming on Cup Day.....read more" Hope this helps!

Wow! This Uelsmann! I am so impressed..(and will return)..and, I now know the direction re: Surrealism...thanks for Your Patience and also the Track Info wink wink

well, couldn't put it any better then zhounder just did, & would like to see the challenge limited to 3-5 would also like to get back to critquing more, there is so much to look at & a lot of it is just soooo good, hard to be too critical good point on the surreal becoming too 2D or MM, i've been close on that myself, we'll just have to see where it goes & hope everyone uses good judgement like moni said michelle, i'm amazed at all you do, you have the hardest challenge of all & anything we can do to help you just name it! :]

When I proposed surrealism for the challenge I was thinking in photographic compositions playing with light and things before shooting, something like still life.

The July 28 I received this IM: I'm interested in your comment in the forum about surrealism. Do you mean using mutiple exposure, solarisation type techniques or photoshop montages or am I looking in the wrong direction?
This was my response: About surrealism I mean to create surrealistic situations better than Photoshop.

I agree 100% with Magick Michael [zhounder]: "As for Surrealism, well, that is a tough call. Is it art? Absolutely! Is it photography? Maybe. I think it is Photo based art. Some more photo based than others. The link that Misha provided is to some excellent work, and it contains elements of photography, yet I wouldn't call it surreal photography. I would call it Surreal art using photos. It's still damn good though."

Ive just discovered and I like the Art of Jerry Uelsmann (Thanks Misha for the link) but I think that Rosity has other galleries for this kind of Art like 2D or MM.
We can read in the Photography Gallery: "Please use your judgement when uploading photo manipulations and photographs that have been heavily changed. You may want to consider uploading to the Mixed Medium or 2D galleries for those types of images."

About the limitation of uploads, I understand Michelle but I like the current use of the forum, I think that the page of contest is more impersonal and the challenge increase the activity in the forum.
I read messages in other forum at Rosity, I've never seen a message of the moderator, technically has a low use, and some messages like "I'll delete my gallery", "I leave Rosity"... are emphasized because the low use of the forum. For this I agree with the limitation of 3-5/photos-member but using the forum and uploading the thumbnail too. Sorry Michelle, but I think is better the format that we are using now.

Actually I think it's rather odd and strangely exciting that our topic should be Surrealism as I am doing a term paper in school : Dada & Surrealism: What are they and how do they differ?

Ok we will limit the amount of entries to 3-5.... shall keep it open like that! I think that with the amount of people participating that shall be a more manageable amount for me...... Shall keep the challenge running out of the forum, as I do feel as you do enax that it is rather impersonal to be run from the contest pages.... Thumbnails ..... no bigger than 150 X 150....... under 15k... I've been reducing them to aroun 4-5 K and they still look fine.... As far as the debate on Surrealism.... as others said quite well...we'll just have to see where it goes & hope everyone uses good judgement Thank you all for speaking up and giving me your opinions...really appreciate it, and this is why I love this place! group hugz

I have no problem with giving you an au natural photo! I agree that is how it should be in a photography contest and as far as the entries go, I have no problem with limiting them either! I guess I just assumed that what you stated up there was already the rule. Now for the really stupid question... I did not see where all the entries were posted!? I guess I must be missing something!? I would have really liked to view them all.

In the header below the Photo Forum banner there is the link called Monthly Challenge.... on the Challenge page you will see a link called "View Previous Months" ....which will bring you to another page and the links are on the sidebar.... Boy that's a lot of clicking! Or just click here and choose your month.... :~)

I believe I'll spare all of the sensitive folks at the Forum any au natural self portraits, though I would encourage several members (and moderators) to enthusasiastically (whatever) participate in this. This IS supposed to be kind of a dream Challenge...

i second mishas' suggestion ;P

Holy chit! THere are a ton of entries! I dunno how you did it! Yes limiting the entries to 3 - 5 per person is a good idea and maybe a bit too much! I would go for one entry per person! (cause I am sure that you aren't getting paid for this!) Have a great day all! :)

...