Hey Everybody. Comment to the comments I got in this thread: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=107&Form.ShowMessage=1538074 Well.. I wasn't talking about my own models/renders. I have only rendered in Bryce so I can't really compare myself. I was speaking about the things I've seen on this site (not only in the Bryce gallery) and on other sites like: Cheeezus! Don't get offended. I'm asking questions about the application (not criticizong anybodys work) regardless of its price etc. Thanks for your comments anyway.

When traveling through the territory of people who love Bryce, it may not be wise to provoke the natives by bad-mouthing (or even seeming to bad-mouth) the software of choice here. :^) Word to the wise. For comparison, try dropping a "Poser renders look cheap" message in the Poser Forum, if you want to know what a real flaming feels like, LOL. John

I'm not offended, but you have to realise that hard-core Brycers, especially the folks who have been at it for a while, are used to elitist snobs with more expensive apps belittling Bryce as a "toy" app. So to say that some of us are defensive about our favorite app is understandable. The way you started your post is a big part of the problem."Is it just me or do you also think that Bryce renders look kind of cheap (plastic, unreal or whatever) compared with scenes/objects rendered in Vue, Cinema4D, Max, Brazil etc etc?" Try walking into a strange bar and start right off by saying something that could be interpreted as insulting to the patrons and see how long it is before the natives are mopping the floor with you! Try a little diplomacy, intelligence and tact next time.

LOL.. Bryce is a toy for me... as long as I take some real pleasure to play with it! ;-p

Well.. I'm not a snob and I'm just a hobbyist. I love Bryce too as the most of the people here do. But what's the point of a forum if your'e not allowed to ask questions? I once commented an image in the gallery. It wasn't good at all (yeah I know the beauty is in the eye of the beholer etc etc) but it had a lot of comments just saying "excellent" (much like the sailboat image in the hot-20). I questioned (in a polight way) what was so excellent about it? I got lots of nasty comments back from his/hers friends.

I didn't take offense. I just went and looked at the works of Rochr, Ornlu, Alvinylaya, roobol, sbleci, beton, mel3d, Sking, Doublecrash, woodhurst, sambucus, ....... and made up my own mind as to the quality of bryce's renderer :)

Bazze - the delivery and wording of a question is very important... Your question sounded a bit inflamatory to me. But hey, live and let live always sounded like a good motto to me. Welcome to the forum and hope we see a bit more of you around here.

Neither cheap nor plastic (how about paper?). Just browse through some of the galleries. Look at some of the images created by Rochr, AS, Woodhurst, Shadowdragonlord, Clay, ICM, Madmax, Zhann, Flak, Derjimi, Pidjy, Incarnadine, GROINGRINDER....and the list goes on. We, as a community are doing things with Bryce for which is was not originaly intended. Originaly, it was intended to be a terrain modeling program (correct me if I'm wrong). Now, I'm seeing works that COMPLETELY SMOKE those made by the "high-end" programs. Improve the render times and facilitate the animation part of the program (and a few other things) and Bryce could give the big names a serious run for their money. When we get the next version of Bryce (Yo, you big wigs reading this or what?) some even more incredible things could happen. I was looking to start learning one of those high end programs with the wicked learning curves, but after applying myself a little more and having modelled my industrial plant and the oil platform that I am working on, I've put the idea on the back burner. So what if it only costs $90 and the others a couple/few hundred to thousands of dollars? As drawbridgep said "Buying a more expensive paintbrush doesn't mean that you will create a better painting." It's what you do with what you have that makes a difference. Apply yourself to Bryce, read tutorials and experiment. Before you know it, you'll create something wonderful. It's as real as you want it to be.

STONE HIM......STONE HIM!!!! * Look at that crowd..I didn't realize there were so many pitchforks in this town.*

Pitchforks? I'm thinking chainsaws and scythes, Groin. Oh, and that crowd is the one from Flak's Siege image going nuts at the insult that hey are cheap and plastic. hehe

At least when our work looks cheap and plastic there are people here who will help you to improve a work and in doing so make it NOT so cheap and plastic.

??huuuuu? me like plastic! BTW try to render a simple plastic bag... not so easy!

While there were a few "I'm offended" responses, it seemed to me that majority of the responses in your first thread (where you could have posted you own respons by the way) directly answered your question and did not take offense in terms of believing you were critisizing anyone's work. You'll have to expect at least of few people to get offended. I mean, what do you think would happen if you went to a Harley Davidson rally and got on the PA system to ask "Don't you think the Suzuki and Yammaha street racing cycles like are a lot better than a Harley?" I'm guessing the response wouldn't nearly as pragmatic as what you got here ;) As far as price, I was just pointing out that while the other packages you mentioned were significantly more expensive than Bryce (you left out Renderman, XSI and Maya ;) ), Byrce is (for the most part) perfectly capable of rendering the same quality images. (which speaks directly to your question of "don't you think it looks like plastic compared to these others?") Have fun.

I got the message! I will now not post my message in the Poser forum and complain about all the Poser nudies (even if I like most of them) :)

You're just havin' a larf bazze aren't you? I like the stone him chant from GG and I've got a spare chainsaw if anyone requires it. BTW bazze are you new to this forum?, if so welcome and try to behave or the lynch mob'll get ya. lol 8D Catlin

hmm..if it doesn't cost a lot, and you can do great art with it, isn't that value?..;)

Okay guys, it's a bit old-fashioned, but here's the tar and feathers...

Hey, Bryce IS a "toy" app! (running away, back to the cinema4D forum real quick...) I got my copy of Cinema4D CE+ for the $100 special offer. And to be honest, while I really like it, for some things Bryce is better. (You never really appreciate the tree lab for one thing until you don't have it! for example) Now, I for one, (having taken no offence at all, am going to back and play with my toys (got a bryce render going). BTW, thanks BOOMER!

Maybe that should be the January challenge. Death by Bryce. Probably get knocked on the head by a large chrome ball. Takes real guts to walk to the middle of a group of leopards and shout out "Lion's are tougher!!" Not sure I would do that.

Why do you think i ran away - real quick! (grin)

This is what Kai had to say on the subject..in an interview from Japan a few years back.

(quote)
CJ: So, is KPT being used mostly by people at home: novices who are playing with it as a hobby and producing some really awful graphics?

Krause: My analogy is: think about when Sony made the camcorder. On one hand, they're responsible for some really horrible movies that people make of their babies and their wedding -- nobody should have to watch them, they're terrible. In the same way, I'm responsible for some very bad art that is being made out there.

On the other hand, what Sony has really done is made it possible for people who never would buy cinematography cameras to put their lives, their past, on videotape. What they are selling is the ability to do that. In the same way, I bring people the ability to do creative things that they normally don't. The idea is to be able to make things you haven't seen before. You can argue with the aesthetics of it, but ....
(end quote)
=================

Not a problem, Incarnadine. It's the simple truth.

aw shucks! (blush)

so have we stoned him, tarred and feathered him, poured boiling honey over him in front of an ant colony, while his nails were pulled off with a red hot wrench, while we poured salt over his open wounds, while we scrubbed his scars with soapy brillo pads, while we............... um, so have we yet? (ill start heating the stones, so theyre nice and hot when we begin the tossing...) no, im just kidding........ the honey doesnt have to be boiling.... :)

Well..the bottom line is: It's not the software, so much as the user.smile

There you go... the January Challenge is "What is this crap?!?" Instead of the best render, find the worst! LOL that'd be a hoot. Not that I'd want it an offical challenge, but still, who could out ugly whom?

Interesting. Come up with the tackiest more uninspired picture you can. But then some people, mentioning no names (dark pointy headed equus caballus)would have an unfair advantage. Since January is probably going to be my only chance to pick the challenge, I'm not too sure about that. Interesting though it is. Anyway, Dennisld and myself have come up with a few ideas for January's challenge, we just have to cut it down to one. I like mine, but Dennisld's is interesting too, it's a tough choice. Might need a challenge to decide which challenge to pick.

Aye, I don't think you were TOO obnoxious about it! Truth is, I sucked too when I first started. You can still see my earlier stuff under the screen name darkelf420. We all made garbage when we first started doing 3D imagery... This forum has been my greatest tool for learning, make sure and ask lots of questions! You get out of it what you put into it. A ten-minute setup and a five minute render will always look like just that...

can't you just turn the reflections down, to get away from the cheap plastic look? what if you're modelling Legos? (some good mats there..;) any package can suck if you don't know it well (set the record recently, with 15 packages in one render..;). It's not the tools, it's the carpenter..

bazze is starting to make trouble again.

I feel Bryce has some good points and poor points. The lighting is the easiest to handle of all the 3D apps I've worked with(3D Studio Max, C4D 7 & 8, Vue 4) and it is not to difficult to make Photo real renderings if that's what you want. What I like is the ability to get a real painterly feel to images fairly easily without having to use a lot of filters post render. However, the long render times when you start using Premium settings is maddening. How many people here are willing to wait 21 days for an image to render ? In my opinion, the best out-of-box render engine is C4D V8. Forget 3D Studio, if you don't have the money to buy V-Ray or Brazil or some other 3rd party renderer. Besides it's one of the most maddening 3D apps around, great modeling app though, maybe the best. Vue d'esprit 4 is another story all together, it can produce some superior atmospheres, and on some textures it handles them better than Bryce, but it also has many quirks. Oh well, I still prefer Bryce to all others,.......because it's easy to use.

Bryce DOES look plastic, at first. It's because it's so easy, on your very first day with it, to throw a bunch of objects into a scene and render it with default mats from Wild & Fun. But if you keep at it for years, the plasticity (that can't be a word lol) goes by the wayside. Bryce5 is a VERY powerful program if you have lots of patience :-)

But what if you WANT a plastic look? I just did a render with toys in it, and the the plastic look made it almost real... truly :c)

Hey! Shadow: We all made garbage when we first started doing 3D imagery Speak for yourself, Mate! LOL ;-)