I'd posted this over at PoserPros in one of the many threads discussing that issue, and I thought I'd throw it out on the floor here as well, to see what folks thought: And yeah, it makes you wonder. I mean, I was playing with some P4 textures last night. Because I don't distribute any of my play-time stuff, I use a lot of existing textures for both the P4 and Michael in the initial stages, mixing and combining almost at will. And I noticed how many of the P4 male textures all come from the same three, possibly four, sources. I don't know if these were originally conceived of as (as they're discretely called now) "merchant bases", but they're all using the same photographs of the same guy. But nothing like the furour we've seen over the last week ever erupted over these (or, I assume, the equivalent textures for Posette, which really are, with few exceptions, just photocopies of each other). People just used them and passed them along and others used them in the process. I almost hate to admit it, but I'm starting to think PJF is right about this (SHOCK! AMAZEMENT!) in his post about the change in the community and how it handles the concept of "merchandise". It's really as if, we had all these folks in "the community" sharing things for the sheer joy of it. Then came the companies: first Zygote, then DAZ, then RMP, then RDNA, then the professional texture makers -- and in the process, we sorta lost a lot of the joy of sharing. I've certainly noticed that in what's showing up in the various freestuffs these days: instead, we're seeing things like the 1.99 shop here and the 2.49 shop there and the 2.99 shop over there, with merchandise that, frankly, is on par with (and sometimes below) what was being freely given away two years ago. It just feels like the whole Poser landscape is changing because it's all become so "developed": the meshes are more complex, meaning more time has to go into making sure the clothing fits and is textured properly, and certainly people feel like they should be compensated for their efforts. But it's all just not sitting right for me. I dunno. Just my two cents. YMMV.

Sooner or later every area of human interest turns professional, and loses its amateur lustre. Some new version or sub-discipline then pops up, and all the new development happens in that realm, until it becomes professionalized and fossilized, at which point some new.......... "Parkinson's Laws", written in the late '40s, described this process in great detail. His observation in this realm: when an organization gets a nice building, with a wing for every department and a statue in the courtyard, the organization is effectively dead. If things have settled down to the point where you can lay out departments, there's no fizz left in the bottle.

like many things that start off as just for fun. one day someone sees a way to make money,then everyone one wants some and it stops being fun any more. from a persomal point of veiw, after the last post on copy right Infringement, what opened my eyes wasnt the Infringement but way poeple spoke to each other and about each other, i am only hoping that this was a small part of "the community"

.

"Money is the root ... " $.02 ;=]

Some of the early free texture makers must be feeling bad right now, given the way textures are passed around in violation of the license, renamed, slightly modified, then resold or redistributed. Renderosity will have its hands full trying to verify that each new texture for sale here is not just a modification of some earlier free or commercial texture. Either that, or they can go the way of Turbosquid and just allow any blatant violation without checking first. It would have been easy to check things 5 or 6 years ago, but now that there are 10,000 or more vendors, just how much is derived from stuff where the originator is conveniently forgotten?

Frankly, giving freebies isn't as much fun as it used to be.

First, you practically have to pay to do so. A few years ago there were several free webspaces with no ads, no linking restrictions, and no bandwidth limitations. Good luck finding those any more. So now, it's either suffer the rule of Tripod and the like, keep downloads very small so they can be uploaded to forums, or pay for web space. That's pretty limiting.

Second, there are some, shall we say, UNIQUE people in the community now. I implemented my courtesy-ware licenses after a weekend in which THREE separate people harassed me about freebies, one of them pretending to be a law enforcement officer and accusing me of piracy. If I hadn't gotten a huge warm Poser fuzzy the Monday morning after, I would have just thrown in the towel right there. A vast majority of the people who do contact me are very nice, but I've seen e-mail to other freebie providers that would strike a nun dead. If the provider doesn't get enough "Thanks, you rock" e-mails to balance it out, I don't blame them a bit for saying "Ah, to hell with every last one of ya".

Then there's the Poser Freebie Bitch and Moan Club. There are some days it seems freebie providers can't do anything right any more. It's not packaged like I want. It's too big. It's too small. It's too restricted. The quality isn't good enough. It should be Public Domain. You're greedy. You're stupid. You're a jerk.

The way I was raised, if you recieved a gift you didn't like, you smiled, said thank you, and then put it in the Goodwill Box when the giver wasn't around so that someone else could get the benefit from it. I didn't think I was old enough for that idea to become outdated, but I guess I was wrong.

If your neck is going to be as far out on the line and your butt going to be roasted just as often either way, you might as well sell.

The thing is, I don't think the community has gotten nastier. I just think that the "vocal minority" has shifted into nastier groups, and the friendly majority has said the same nice things so many times they no longer think its necessary. If we want to get a more "sharing" community, we're going to have to go out of our way to be more friendly towards sharers. One nasty message does a lot of damage, and the TLC investment to counteract that has been kinda slim.

I meant to mention before - FyreSpirit, I love your rant page about Free Stuff whiners. ;) There are a number of people (including a few well-known merchants) that I wish I could screen out from downloading my free stuff because of comments they've made in the past regarding giving Poser items away for free. We're continually losing free stuff providers because of inconsiderate people, and although I have no plans to give up sharing my creations with everyone, it's sure becoming hard for me to keep quiet when the complaining starts. Take care. SnowS

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=559718&Start=1&Artist=SamTherapy&ByArtist=Yes

Sam, LOL! I like it. :) Snow, I'm glad you like the page. (You're one of the "wonderful nice people who might enjoy and appreciate my toy" I refer to. ;) ) Some days it just gets so frustrating, I just have to go somewhere I can blow off steam.

I tend to agree with you Fyrespirit, having been on the receiving end of similar emails and abuse. I have finally given up. I was negotiating a deal for a paid website that would cover my bandwidth and some to spare. Would have cost me about 450 dollars a year to run it but with 75gb bandwidth per month I figured it would suffice. After this year though screw it. I've left my freebies at Daz but they're the end of it. Anything I make now goes to friends only or into the 3DArena store for site support (I take no profit). Even that will be a few items only. I'm just heartily sick of the whole thing. If it wasn't for people like Ironbear, Jade, Jackie, X2, Snowsultan, Silvermage, Shlabber, Don Albert, Legume, Bladesmith, jmahoney and a few others I'd wash my hands of this whole damn scene. It's not that it's no fun, more that it's all about the damn dollar and people fucking each other in the ass just to get some, and a couple personalities taking the time to gloat and promote themselves in the mess. I had a plan earlier this year to do something to get me "back in the mood", even went so far as to post a preview here of stuff I hoped would be ready for Christmas. Two full character packs and some other toys and I just built a whole furnished house. But... well. I guess some of it will find it's way into site support. Hey, if I'm going to get abuse and ripped off anyway, it might as well do some good and support my net home, neh? I'm rather lucky in some ways. Most of my stuff is unique enough that it gets noticed when someone tries to sell it, a couple times it didn't but I found out and the thing was removed (this was not at Daz, RMP, 3DC or PP) But really. What's the motivation these days for producing freebies for people? I love abuse when it's directed accurately or done well but not for the sake of it. I don't want people fawning at my feet like they do with some personalities and then there's the wonderful "merchants" who think stealing is ok and that a fast buck is more important than earning it honestly. One would think that they'd have just a teeny bit more integrity. I disagree with the TLC idea, I don't think that's necessary at all. A little gratitude rather than hate would be nice but I can live with that. It's all the rest of the crap. My feelings are summed up at 3DArena so I won't repeat it all here. Welcome to the machine, welcome to the new world. Greed is god and to hell with everything else.

SamT, That is one of my faves!!! Thanks for (re)sharing it. cheers, dr geep ;=]

Attached Link: P4 Male Free Texture

As you can see that texture is brutal by todays standards but was considered a top notch freebie back then. lol

As someone who is dependent on the freebies because I can no longer afford to buy anything beyond my monthly basic living expenses (meaning no magazines, no Big Macs, no software, etc), I just have to jump in here and holler out a big "THANK YOU!" to all you folks who have made the free stuff products available. Without your hard work, my poor Posettes would all be Plain Janes. I've found many skin textures, clothing props, hair, and accessories items as well as face and body morphs that have become standard equipment for my characters, and all of this came from the free sections.

Anton, You made some of the first "special effects" props I downloaded at PropsGuild... and that unforgettable peacock. I remember the thread where somebody dressed the peacock and the rhino in oriental carpetting. The peacock held up better! Each wave of freebies is good for its time. The skills used may vary in range and competancy, but the generosity and enthusiasm remain a constant. As pointed out above, a freebie is a gift. That which is given is the most precious thing of all: time. Even if it isn't something I personally need or will use, I appreciate the fact that an artist is willing to give us the time spent in creation, and the skill and care in making. It enriches the entire community. If that gift of time inspires someone else to make something and share it, the gift increases like ripples on water. Here's to a group {hug} for those free stuff providers! Thank you all!!! Carolly

I think the pursuit of photorealism has really pushed more poser items into the marketplace. The textures take a lot more time to make and less people are making them. That and the unauthorized use of textures such as JoeLeGecko's Jeff for M2. I don't remember all the details on that though.

Thanks. Looking for antiue x-mas ornaments this weekend reminds me of this thread in some ways. First off, you can never have everything that is out there. The desire to compusively collect everything Poser leads to many of those rediculous "grumpy" posts. I think it is better to find that genre that is your favorite and carefully collect those items you love. The store bought ornaments were not as fun as the ones I searched for. I found alot of crap at old markets nad antique stores. But it was finding the treasures that was the most fun. But I had to remember that even though they were dirt cheap they were old and once expensive. Sometimes I just wish we could do the Noah's Arch thing and drown most of the content. lol Kinda kidding. Seriously It was more fun when there were less things. then each new release was special. Nowadays new products are released and liquidated within 6 months. New stuff looks like old stuff. :( Now that the community is finally verging upon it's either final death or eventual rebirth things will hopefully be reborn more interesting. Either way this 5th era of the Poser community is almost completely over. What everyone is seeing is desperation over what no broker wants to either believe or talk about...the Poser well is amost dry. They are just desperate for products to sell. Constant sales is never the sign of a thriving market. Regards, Anton ps: there will always be freebies. There are just as many now as there have always been. they are just spilt up among more sites.

"That which is given is the most precious thing of all: time. Even if it isn't something I personally need or will use, I appreciate the fact that an artist is willing to give us the time spent in creation, and the skill and care in making. It enriches the entire community. If that gift of time inspires someone else to make something and share it, the gift increases like ripples on water." applause True words, clearly spoken.

Attached Link: http://www.cyclopsstudio.com

In the old days I had to walk uphill to school... BOTH WAYS! I had to suck oxygen out of rocks do you hear? And I was damn glad to have em! Every community, hobby or group has they their happy fantasy memories of "the good old days" when the streets were paved with gold and the trees all dripped caviar. It's usually hogwash. I appreciate that those who do freestuff give of their time, and I always drop them a thank you note if I wind up using any of their stuff. Though thats not very often. At the risk of being a complainer let's face facts...99.9% of the free stuff for poser sucks. It has always sucked. Thats the nature of free things. Most free software sucks for instance. Would I ever heap abuse on a free stuff maker or send them hate mail? Nope. I would simply bit bucket their offering and remind myself that I had no reason to expect it to be any better than it was. As with many other current issues this is not black and white, us or them, for or against. Most free items are bad, they are hard or impossible to install and their licensing terms bite... and I STILL appreciate that someone sent them adrift into the 'net with good intentions. But let's not weep for the days of milk and honey - cause they probably werent the way you remember them.

It seemeth Joey is bemoaning a more innocent time. T'was an age of discovery, and joy in the sharing of it. Economic realities of this age assaulted that Avalon and threw it down. The shadow of Mordor stretched over the lands.

So long as we remember what twas like yet we may keep the flame alive. Let not thy hearts be troubled by the naysayers, wailers, and teeth-nashers for they were always with us, and ever shall be. Ware their Orc-poison arrows seeking thy breast.

Take courage and strength of heart in thy efforts and in the companionship of others who also give freely. Thy labors are not in vain. For by thy generosity and mentoring, you will grow others to arise and share in both the burden and joy.

That is how the flickering flame spreads and keeps the shadow at bay.

And to all content creators, accept my humble thanks, graditute, and blessings for a New Year.

Elen sila lumenn omentilvo!

Well may I just add my two cents worth. I am a part-time clerk/mum and I play with poser for fun. I do buy stuff, especially since the lure of the Plat Club got me in its grip! But I also greatly appreciate the freebies. I have never been the sort of person who feels they fit in easily, I am painfully shy and lack self-confidence but here at 'Rosity I feel like I can be myself. All the freebies you guys have given us over the years have been so wonderful - even the not so technically great ones. Why? Coz someone, somewhere decided to share their hard work with complete strangers. Long live 'Rosity and long live you guys!

I did my first commercial work in Poser using only freestuff (with permission). I used Correct Reference and UV Mapper, both free. I had access to brilliant tutorials, all free. All my stupid questions in this forum were answered for free. I used a whole lot of python scripts. All free. Someone made me something I needed, for free. I made enough money to buy Vue d'Sprit. I think these are the "good old days", right here, right now. PS. In the good old days I had to walk to school, both ways. I think it's because I lived next door to the school.

let's face facts...99.9% of the free stuff for poser sucks Uh, no, not really. It may need a little adjustment to meet its full potential, but I can only think of a very few things that outright "suck". But I can go into the RMP and find a couple of dozen for-pay pieces that seriously suck. Not because I might have to pay for them, but because someone somewhere actually thought people would spend money on them. A more innocent time? Could be. But certainly one where you didn't see catfights over textures and almost monthly threats of lawsuits over copyright violations. And yeah, I had to walk to school uphill both ways in six feet of snow, even in the summer. :)

Some of the poser free things are at least as good as the ones you pay for. People selling textures for figures annoys me because it is pretty lame.

People selling textures for figures annoys me because it is pretty lame. Er... Why is it lame? And by figures, do you mean people then? While I don't buy many textures myself I don't consider the ones I have "lame" in any way. If they were, I wouldn't have bought them ;o) Oh and Soulhuntre... for that 99.9% of Free Stuff sucks remark... Thanks a lot. Remind me of that if you should EVER request anything, and I WON'T make it for you.

"like many things that start off as just for fun. one day someone sees a way to make money"....i don't think thats how it got started, it was more the cost of keeping the free sites open, i can only speak from personal experience but for us it was a case of the costs went up ten fold (a buddy was hosting cheap) and the income dropped hugely when companys realised there was not much point advertising on the net.....even now we have sites with big text messages at the top saying "sorry for the pop ups but its the only way we have of keeping the site free", so what do we do, we use pop up killers, then complain when the site closes coz the webmaster can't afford to run it.....kinda like shooting yourself in the foot LOL, BTW i'm not taking the high and mighty approach here, i may not use a pop up killer but about the only place i click on a banner ad is here....i once asked my mother if i could get the bus to school....i walked the 2 miles with a very sore ear :o).......Steve

Just to be pendantic, free stuff is not really a gift at all. It's sharing. That doesn't make it any less valuable. A gift is where I have something and you don't have it; I give it to you, now you have it and I don't. That's a gift. With Poser stuff, I have something and you don't have it; I share it with you, now we both have it. That's not a gift in the usual sense of the word. Which is why comparisons with conventional gift-giving are inapt. I like the idea of sharing; I like the idea of people in the community supporting one another, helping one another. It's something that holds the community together. It sucks that there are so many obstacles (bandwidth costs, etc) that hinder this now. The way to go, it seems to me, is some sort of P2P arrangement to remove the cost from the person who provides the freestuff. Incidentally (to be yet more pedantic, but it's a pertinent point), money is NOT the root of all evil. LOVE OF money is.

Stevshanks wrote: "about the only place i click on a banner ad is here" What a coincidence - I could say the same thing.

I'm also grateful. Particularly those who have chosen to share indispensible items like UVMapper and Morph Manager. But I don't buy this "anyone who gives something away for nothing must be a saint and is beyond all reproach forever" line. Incidentally, for those struggling to find a site to put free stuff items, I may have some good news very soon.

"What everyone is seeing is desperation over what no broker wants to either believe or talk about...the Poser well is amost dry. They are just desperate for products to sell. Constant sales is never the sign of a thriving market." Anton, thanks for everything you have written here. I agree with it all. This little bit that I have quoted above really stood out for me. I wonder if anyone else has noticed it? I've been using Poser now for nearly four years. I have spent ridiculous amounts of money on what is only a hobby for me. And now...in all truthfulness...the joy of it has worn off. I have indeed seen most everything before. In fact I have bought it in most cases. ;-) I still buy...a little here and a little there. More and more, I create my pictures with half-remembered treasures buried in my runtime folder...or stuff downloaded two years ago and never used. It's kind of like Anton's search for antique Christmas ornaments; my poking and peeking through folders and back-up disks often yields up a gem. The future of Poser merchandise, in my very humble opinion, would have to be with new Poser (or maybe DAZ Studio?)users. Those of us who have been around awhile probably have started to grow a little jaded. We already have twelve sets of armour, in other words. ;-) Does anyone else agree? I seriously wonder. Kimberly

I don't know if it's the weak economy, the dot-com crash, the effect of the Platinum Club, the fact that there really has been no fundamental improvement in Poser in years, that 3D modelling software has become easier to use, or what...but I do think that it's a buyer's market in Poser. Textures and models are going for much cheaper than they used to. Merchants are being forced to lower their prices. I suspect there are simply too many merchants and not enough buyers. Probably because there are so many "hobbyist" types, who don't need the money and can therefore afford to give it away or sell it really cheap. I do think there may be some kind of shakeup or market consolidation coming. Probably with DAZ as the major commercial player left standing, and maybe a few hobbyist sites left, where the "stores" are more a way to pay for bandwidth than actual income generators.

I disagree entirely. The closest comparison to any real world market is the 12" action figure Market. If it was going to run dry it would have done so decades ago. Barbie has been around for almost 45 years. GI Joe, hit 40 about 2 years ago. While not always staying fresh, or even the best quality, they have stayed in business. And there's the new "kids" in the industry. There's Ultimate Soldier by 21st Century Toys. Blue Box, who's CyGirls can barely stay in stock. Japanesse import Dragon. If there is anything stagnant or burnt out in the Poser community, it's been the actual program that has seen no upgrade for three years, and then a very poor one that barely worked. Even there look at all the advancment that has been made basically by hobbiests. Material poses. MORph Poses. Morph Injection. JCM Morphs. Erc Morphs. Object Remaping. All kinds of cool stuff i just can't think of. Poser animation is still a small untapped market. Wait until some one comes up with a Rag Doll physics simulation. Or AI plug ins for D|S that give certain figures automatic behaviors. There is lot's more to discover here, and we still haven't even touched on what happens whent he regular Joe figures out how much fun it is to play with action figures again. DAZ should do an AOL style give away of DAZ|Studio with RRMike and RRVicky. "Poser" is a niche market of the general 3D market right now. But if enough people get their hands on it, D|S can open it up to an audience who never knew it existed. The well is dry? I just think we haven't seen the ocean yet.

It seems to me as though the reason many of the textures went to the marketplace is the increased cost of making them. First, you need advanced photographic equipment and then you might have to pay a model to obtain his skin texture. It's not as though the quality of figure textures is on the same level as when they were being giving out freely. As far as freestuff goes. If it's not something that I want then I don't download it. Simple as that. But this does not detract from the fact that someone put a lot of effort into making the item. Yes, there are a few things in the marketplace that are a bit out of place. There also are packages sold separately that should be condensed to make it easier for the buyer. But these are only a few things in the grand scheme of what's available. I agree wholeheartedly about market consolidation. Newbies and hobbyist are the least likely to search for different stores. Heck, I don't know all the stores poser stuff is sold on, some of them are major ones too. Realistically, there would still be a few stores left so that DAZ wouldn't have a complete monopoly. Another problem is advertising. People got so upset when content providers showed WIP in the poser forum. But a lot of these merchants were also freestuff providers. By the same token, a lot of the people who were angry in the first place were other merchants who felt the posting merchant was getting more publicity. Maybe this is due to a bit of competitiveness at R'osity which you can see just by looking at the forums and the gallery.

If one wants to see the overt commercialization of our community in all its glory, just look at the front page of just about any Poser site out there. You know as well as I what you'll find: ads. Lots of them. The email newsletters? Ads. Lots and lots of them. Yeah, I know, it takes money to run a site, and merchandise pays for it. But I've gotten to the point where I don't even look at the ads any more. I don't care that someone has come up with the 1,547th armour design for Vicky, let alone the 4,893rd texture "to make her look like a goddess". After last week, my suspicion now is that that 4,893rd texture is based on taking the 2,417th, 1,895th, and 357th "goddess" textures and just putting them together and slapping a twenty-five dollar price tag on it. It has nothing to do with bandwidth in that case; it has everything to do with "well, everyone else is doing it, so why shouldn't I?" I buy on occasion, mostly for Ichiro and Koshini, increasingly rarely for anything else. Like Sparrowheart, I find myself going back into the CDs and finding something in an old runtime that can be retextured and refitted, and that these days is a helluva lot more fun than plunking down the credit card for some thirty-dollar prop that might be amusing for one or two images and then shoved into an archive and forgotten. I guess the bottom line is: the last week really opened my eyes a lot about this community. I feel like I can't trust anything from anyone, most importantly from a vendor. Before, in those grand old days of innocence, you could trust, because you knew in advance that it'd no likely came from another source and got to where it is now with the complete blessing of whoever the now-long-lost originator might have been. Few people worried about leaving a signature on their work, save those who were laying the groundwork to become a merchant. Now, you turn around, and folks are slapping a circle-c on anything that moves. Just my two cents. YMMV.

"I feel like I can't trust anything from anyone, most importantly from a vendor." Ouch. Most vendors are scrupulously honest because of the shitstorm it kicks up when one is found to be dishonest. Don't be tarring us with the same brush; we are all affected by this kind of thing. Customer negativity, distrust, and a general "Oh fuck it all" attitude. Plus, a lot of us got burned, too. I forked over hard earned money for products I may as well set fire to now. What do we have to do to prove our integrity?

"The Times, they are a-changing" As for 99.9 percent of freebies being crap, well, hrmph. Maya & Kozaboro free Hairs are top of the line, the Maya Doll is awful cute, Dark Whisper's Sara is pretty spiffy, and Wenkes hair textures & hair fits are seriously useful. Right up there with Snowsultan's guides and Trekkiegrrls unusual freebies.

In many ways, this thread boils down to an Eden vs Utopia point of view -- those who see an idyllic past that has been lost due to "sin" vs. those who see the current events as building toward a better tomorrow.

Let's see, it's an odd numbered day, so I'm inclined toward Utopia.

Consider this:
I can't comment on the "old days", since I started with Poser 4. But I have been making purchases at DAZ, RDNA, RMP, Poserpros, etc for about a year, and I can say this: if it wasn't for these commercial sites, I would have lost interest in this program about two months after I purchased it. Poser4's file management is restrictive, its resource management is worse, I don't care for the interface. But you know what? Lots of things sold at DAZ, RDNA, RMP, etc. are just plain cool, so I tolerate this odd program.

So, from my point of view, this marketplace of Poser content (third party characters, props, textures, etc) sustains the Poser user base and is the primary reason why the program still exists. In fact, I'd say this marketplace is more robust than its software engine -- in theory, if DAZ Studio was meant as a Poser replacement program (from what I understand, it's not), then Poser could go the way of the platypus while its content marketplace remain intact. That's not typical in other software niches -- for instance, most game add-ons depend on the viability of the original game engine. Maybe Adobe Photoshop plug-ins would survive if Photoshop disappeared, but I digress.

Now, is the marketplace itself out of gas? You know, on even numbered days, that thought has crossed my mind. But today, I think, naw, something's cool coming out tomorrow ...

What do we have to do to prove our integrity? I don't know, Sam. Honest, I don't. But when I see a long-time, well-established merchant guilty of having ripped off from two other long-time, well-established sources, on the heels of so many smaller, similar accusations directed at others not quite so established, I seriously begin to wonder about the integrity of the whole place. I don't think it's an issue of testers not catching this stuff, because there's so damn much to wade through these days, with a lot of it looking real similar in the first place. But right now, this last catfight made everything suspect, even from vendors whose work I know and very deeply love. >> this marketplace of Poser content (third party characters, props, textures, etc) sustains the Poser user base and is the primary reason why the program still exists And here, respectfully, I must disagree. It wasnt the vendors keeping this program alive. It was the users. The vendors supported the users, no doubt, by feeding that need for the latest and shiniest... but it was the users who kept the whole thing -- program, fora, and markets -- afloat. >> In fact, I'd say this marketplace is more robust than its software engine Of course it is. But Poser is like CAD: a tool and nothing more. It's not a modelling program and never has been (unless, like Geep, you know how to draw the damndest things out of it), so everything has to be brought into it to make it "creative". DAZ Studio, whenever it comes out, will probably have the same restriction slapped on it because it just takes too much power to have this kind of detailed human figure software attached to a high-end modelling program. I mean, this is no surprise, and it shouldn't be seen as something against Poser; it's just the way it is, period. I dunno. The thread has probably run its course anyway.

Joey, there are serious discussions on the subject of proving integrity and accountability going on in the Merchant's forum. Only at the discussion stages now, but I suspect some changes may be made in the near future. If it prevents a repeat of the past week's fiasco, I'm all for it.

"Uh, no, not really. It may need a little adjustment to meet its full potential, but I can only think of a very few things that outright "suck". "

Obviously this is a matter of opinion... I tend to be rather harsh in my evaluations. If I was purely a hobbyist my feelings might be different but I doubt it.

"But I can go into the RMP and find a couple of dozen for-pay pieces that seriously suck. Not because I might have to pay for them, but because someone somewhere actually thought people would spend money on them."

Oh I agree entirely. It constantly amazes me what I see in most product previews... in particular for clothing. Most of it looks like it is 1mm thick because no one made an edge to the seaming and it almost never fits right even in the promotional renders.

"A more innocent time? Could be. But certainly one where you didn't see catfights over textures and almost monthly threats of lawsuits over copyright violations."

Maybe - when there is nothing to lose I suppose it isn't worth the trouble. That isn't the same thing as "innocent" you know... from my memory of the histories of this and many other sites there was a share of turbulence and flamage.

This is true of the "good old days" in 3D graphics - long before Poser existed at all. It is true of the "good old days" in UUNET (pre web) and the old BBS days of shareware. Everyone remembers it as being idyllic... and it never was.

People don't change.

"Oh and Soulhuntre... for that 99.9% of Free Stuff sucks remark... Thanks a lot. Remind me of that if you should EVER request anything, and I WON'T make it for you."

Ok. I'll make a note of it - if I forget and accidentally do ask you specifically to build me something feel free to remind me. It never ceases to amaze me how people can take this stuff so personally.

"Does anyone else agree? I seriously wonder."

I agree entirely that the market is getting very interesting. Of course it will no longer support the large number of merchants it did a while ago pumping out almost anything that crossed their mind to an audience that bought almost literally anything. This is not, IMHO, bad news.

Prices are coming down... quality is going up. The market is doing what markets do in finding a natural balance between supply and demand. The most talented vendors will survive and the many others will succeed but not be full time at this. Just like every other market shake out there ever was.

Other things are happening though that will lead us to another big explosion in 2004 I think. It will be interesting to watch.

"I do think there may be some kind of shakeup or market consolidation coming. Probably with DAZ as the major commercial player left standing, and maybe a few hobbyist sites left, where the "stores" are more a way to pay for bandwidth than actual income generators."

I think there will be more than that - I am thinking there will be three major markets in a little while, and maybe 5 or so second level stores and a number of good individual merchant sites.

"Maya & Kozaboro free Hairs are top of the line, the Maya Doll is awful cute, Dark Whisper's Sara is pretty spiffy, and Wenkes hair textures & hair fits are seriously useful. Right up there with Snowsultan's guides and Trekkiegrrls unusual freebies"

Of course they are. There are others too we could name obviously. Traveler puts out good free stuff I use and Questor did some awesome guns I love. The list goes on and on. However if you look at the thousands and thousands of freebies available you realize how rare those people are.

That's just the nature of these things though - it isn't a flaw or a condemnation. It has always been that way in every community where things are traded that are free (and most markets). Most of the free quilting patterns my ex wife got and traded for free a long time ago sucked too :)

I seem to have missed the whole "who stole what from whom" part of this topic that started at another forum. Could some one either link me or summerize? If for no other reason than that I may have quiestionable product and not even know about it.

Check out the Copyright Forum for details. (There's several threads on it. Look for some of the 200+ posts.) I'd rather not name people here simply to keep this thread somewhat on track and somewhat civil. (And I'm trying to stay official neutral on this in public.) Cres

Well, I confess to being a bit innocent in all this. I was under the impression that if you put out a good product at a fair price, people would buy it. I know the market is big. You can call it 'saturated' or 'vibrant' depending on your POV. But it's obvious that, as the technical stakes are raised, the products need to be better in order to sell. That's what the free market is about. Would your go out and buy a 66Mhz machine with 8 megs of RAM today? The same philosophy applies to characters, textures, weapons, etc. Maybe there are 4,472 Goddess texs for vicki, but the standard of texs has risen dramatically in the past 2 years. I sometimes think time moves at a different pace for computer users. It was only a few years ago that users were going apeshit because they discovered they could apply their own textures. We've come a long way. So, if you want to sell, all I can say is 'get with the program, bub'. Be better than everyone else. THAT'S the name of the game. I spent 2 years making free stuff, (about 50+ items still available at 3d commune), and I moved into selling for a very simple reason. Making free stuff just wasn't enough for me any longer. I wanted to progress beyond simple things, and have the challenge of making more complex products. But if you spend 3 - 6 months on a project, it's nice to get something back. Not that I'm planning to buy my own Learjet or anything. LOL. I'm with Rateler on this one. I think we've barely scraped the surface of the market. New users are popping up every day and, as the market gets more flooded, the buyers become much more discerning in what they spend their bucks on. In other words, if your product sucks, who's going to buy it? I reckon this is a good thing. As user expectations rise, it forces higher standards on the merchants. The 'developed' poser landscape is responsible for the fact that the basic standards in the art galleries has risen too. Of course, we could always try and form some kind of communist state monopoly for merchants' products and see what that leads to. Think about it. mac

I think Poser is still too difficult to be a truly mass-market product. That is, it will have to be a lot easier to use before the market will get appreciably larger. A lot of the people who learn Poser go on to learn Max or Wings or whatever, and end up making their own props, and so stop being buyers and become vendors (or least buy a lot less). If Poser were easier, there would be more users, and more of a divide between vendors and buyers. If DAZ Studio is as user-friendly as AOL, then giving it away like AOL will work. Otherwise, it probably won't.

Speaking as someone who's prepared to accept that his limited number of freestuff items are shite, it seems to me the Poser market in general (freestuff n MP)is becoming like every other bsuiness in history: focused on survival of the fittest i.e. best. So what's new? JoeBlack

Hey Joe (cue Hendrix riff), your freebies look ok to me. You're absolutely right about the state of the market, too.

In reference to messages #1 and #2. This is the computer industry. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, the Williams of Sierra, et al., all used to hang out in the early days of computing (personal style) and when the potential for making $$$ entered the picture, pals became competing business interests and the "stuff in the drawer" was no longer available. For a explanation of the "stuff in the drawer" reference, I suggest you look for a copy for the book "Hackers". It came out in the Eighties and is a very interesting read.

and i still get email asking me why i pulled my products off of DAZ and where they can still buy the animal and other texture paks.i have to email them back and let them know how to still get them thru me. i don't mind it. i plan to sell more anyway. and not to be in competition with them, I pulled my product cause i knew something wasn't going right over there. and i was correct. and from what i'm reading above, seem like some are catching on just a bit.

Maybe there are 4,472 Goddess texs for vicki, but the standard of texs has risen dramatically in the past 2 years Forgive the cynic in me, but they've risen because of folks like Catharina and Steffy -- and as we've just seen, it's their work that raises the quality bar for everyone else through the Magic of Photoshop. Yeah, that's harsh. But dammit, it's probably far closer to the truth than any of us are willing to accept. Hell, this is just the photo-based textures -- I seriously wonder how many of the hand-painted ones out there are guilty of the same sin, if not more egregiously since they would be harder to track? >> I think we've barely scraped the surface of the market Sorry, Mac, but that just scares the bee-jezuz out of me. OK, gotta go put on my love beads and my bell bottoms and sing about Love and Happiness and a Joyful, Peaceful Planet for a while.... :)