Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=2104&Form.ShowMessage=1586000

Hey - that was nothing - try going ot CGtalk or, I'm sure, some of the other high-end sites mentioned in that thread if you want to see some real Poser bashing. Personally, I think a lot of people using CG are going for roughly the same fantasy character look, so whether they've modelled their models themselves or used a Daz model an awful lot of the characters and scenes end up looking the same. It's no different than someone who's trying to paint something in the style of Rembrandt/dutch artists or whatever. It's very difficult and time-consuming to model a human figure as was mentioned in that thread, and most people do not have the time to do it, unless they're being paid for it. And often even if they're being paid for it, whoever's paying probably won't mind if they use a Daz or Zygote model because the cost for the total job will be much less.

Eh ......... who cares! Not moi! ;=]

Basically, it's sculpturers saying painters aren't real artists... and painters saying sketchers aren't real artists... and both saying photographers aren't real artists.... Sigh

yeah, that's about what it boils down to.

And I know photographers who find that using Photoshop or any other digital application is not real photography... It's not only a question of making a digital statue from polygons, but also placing bones to make it moveable, and making the correct mesh to make these movements possible. And those who can do it "better" than DAZ don't waste their time on writing negative stuff on Poser/DazStudio.

I have to agree, Aeneas, on the point of "make-it-yourself" figures. There is much, much more involved than just modeling the geometry (an art in itself); textures and rigs are even more complicated. The people working on "Final Fantasy" level figures make "figures" (as in $100's of thousands a year!!!). They have every tool (no matter the cost) at their disposal and I'll bet that more than one person works on each figure (one to model, one to texture, one to rig, etc.). When I'm making $100K/year to do this, I'll create my figures from scratch with the best software possible. Until then...

By the way I WISH I was making $100K/year to do this,ahah If it happens, i'll let you know LOL

OHH.... has it been a month already???? my how time flies.......YAWWN!!!!!!

Wolf359, I think an equestrian is the horse's rider. Equine is the horse.

your right :-)

hey..at least we're beating something new..the horse was pretty hamburgerized already..;)

Otherwise known as revenge of the bovine.

Nah, this is the same old tripe. In 3D CG, it's not "aaaaaaaaaaart" unless you invented, designed, and built the computer and software yourself. My take is this: When I have work to be done in a timeframe and since my budget doesn't include the expenditures going to Iraq (or to my local plumber, for that matter), I use whatever tools are at my disposal and the skills that I have attained. I agree: this horse has been atomized by the frequent beating on the same topic. If the other 3D app users feel so insecure about their skills that they cannot see a tool for its worth, then let them remain ignorant imbeciles... Now, for real discussion, see my question in the C4D forum concerning animating gradient shader material colors. ;)

I'd love to see her completed.

The major difference between Poser and other applications is not the software itself (they all use L.N to calculate lambert shading) but the user base's attitude: If you post a stunning image in a cgtalk forum, people will ask "Awesome! How did you make that hair?" where in the Poser forums people will ask "Awesome! Where did you buy that hair?".

On the other hand I don't see anything wrong with honoring someone else's abilities and creativities by acknowledging their effort. If someone is a merchant, and they hope to make an extra dime or two from something they have made, what's so terrible about supporting their effort? I don't have the time or (mainly) the interest in doing everything from scratch. I don't bake pies from scratch. I didn't build my house from scratch. I didn't buy parts to build my car from scratch. I didn't build make my computer from scratch. So what's the big deal if I buy hair from someone? Heck, I don't cut my own hair much less Vicky's! Sorry, horsie. I didn't mean to hurt you even more.

Certainly if the end result image is good one shouldn't care what tools were used to create the image. However I do have to agree that a lot of the characters/textures in Poser images tend to look rather similar. A lot of morph dials go unused. :) Also have to admit that there are certain themes that repeat in Poser galleries. Even Poser users complain about the 'naked vicki in a temple with a sword' type images that can be rather prevalent. Basically you just have to judge each image on its own merit.

only hobby 3d purists make all their own stuff for everything. Professionals that do this for a living in the motion picture and gaming realms are highly specialised to various aspects of the job and work in teams.

hehehe if they are getting a 100k a year to make characters- I'll hereby place a bid for 50k. lol and if they are as good as they think they are (which they are NOT) they could be making Vickey4 and making 5 million! ignore them- loud mouths all

garrr! ok for the "movie" type graphics using 3d OMG yes they DO have TEAMS of people working on figures! now if we {as in people in renderosity} made a team and worked on ONE figure ...I bet you, we{as in renderosity} would traunce those blow hards! I remembers reading that one movie has just two people working on REFLECTION ALONE. ON ONE FIGURE!AND IT STILL TOOK SOMETHING LIKE TWO YEARS. I mean look at things like monsters inc....they had teams of people working ONLY ON THE HAIR! art should not be judged on the tool used to make it. period and if they can not see that then they have their noses so high up in the air they are going to bleed to depth from nose bleeds. sorry but going through the galleries ....poser art..when handled correctly {and my god it is an ongoing learning experience if there ever was one} can not only match but surpass most other 3d work. but say it is poser and OMG not THAT proggy...~rolls her eyes~ I mean look at this normally in our market ..there are what...a few packages with more then one peson that worked on it...but do we see packages with literally TEAMS of people working on ONE set of textures or such? no. so in comparison ...looking at the work of individual artists in here....IT IS FLIPPING GREAT AND IF THEY OVER IN THE HIGH AND MIGHTY 3D WORLD OF HIGH SOCIETY[note please that was sarcasm}DONT LIKE IT,.. THEN THEY CAN GO KISS 3D RUMP!

The main difference is that most people that use other software use the software to produce the desired results. The vast majority of Poser users use the software to assemble bought textures, props etc. As an example Poser users buy poses when the software they are using is designed to do just that. Poser has become, for a lot of people, just a grown up software version of Barbie rather than being used to it's full capabilities. Nobody is asking Poser users to build their own figures because Poser is not designed to do that but you can make quite complex props, pose your figures, do your own lighting and certainly develop your own characters. Most Poser users use a image app for postwork so again make your own textures.

~lays her head on her desk~ god the typos are rampant in that arent they? depth...should be death..... remembers...should be remember......god I give up ~goes back to her coffee~

"The vast majority of Poser users use the software to assemble bought textures, props etc." So do motion picture studios. Except they hire the artists in house. Next.

and is that in some way meant to be relevant?

yes. It just sailed over your head is all. The end result should be what's important. Nobody in their right mind thinks one person created Final Fantasy or Shrek, or even a simple 3d video game. In the end, composition of the piece should be most important, not whether you modelled it all yourself. Its like saying a painter isn't a real artist because he didn't grind his pigments.

The high-end crowd often do that 'make the model yourself' thing lol. It's the equivalent of saying "Ashkenazy? He's not a real musician! Jeez, he doesn't even make his own pianos!!! Hell, he didn't even write the music himself!" So, let's not care about their high-end snooty nonsense. Making musical instruments is also an art - just a different one :o) :] Fish

EXACTLY ~thinks poor poor horse~ not ONE of these highsocieties I bet made and programed their own computer as in...made the metal housing..the wires..circutes...programed it from scratch {bet they are using windows or linux so oops they are out of the originality I built it myself deal} so in actuallity no matter how many pats on the back they wish to give themselves..they are JUST LIKE US {dunn dunnn DUNNNNNNN} they use.. a program they use something someone else made! they use materials that they didnt by hand originally creat! no not all poser artists use prebought stuff..yes some poses are easier with a click but not all poser artists do that. same with lights. these artists just dont like the idea of being told GUESS WHAT YOU ARE USING A PROGRAM YOU DIDNT CREAT TO MAKE 'ART' YOU ARE INFACT LIKE A POSER ARTIST JUST THE NAME OF YOUR PROGGY IS DIFFERENT. >.< grrrr hate this topic and it comes up so often and NO ONE UNDERSTANDS WE ARE ALL DIGITAL ARTISTS. if you use painter, ps, psp, gimp what ever.....you are still an artist...you use poser, maya, 3dmax..they all offer something different but ARE STILL TOOLS TO BE USED TO CREAT ART.....

I think Stewer hit the nail on the head in post 17... and my take on it is that users of modelling apps are concerned with Modeling, want recognition for Modeling and judge their own progress and skills against other Modelers. I experienced something of this a while back when I spent a whole lot of time working on modeling a human character (a learning process for me). I scoured the various forums, looking to see how others were doing it, how they laid out their mesh topology and any tips and tricks on all aspects of creating human models. In the process, you run across various renders.. and some make you go "Ooooh! Wow!" and you strive to improve your skills and techniques to achieve similar results. You admire that modeler's skills. If you then find/figure out that it's just V3 with some morphs, you might still admire their 'modeling skills' if they created the morphs, but the initial thrill of discovery is gone. I think some people just don't handle the above scenerio well and end up with an anti-poser (anti-purchased models) attitude. It's really all a matter of perspective. I think the arguement rarely boils down to whether Poser users can create good art or even whether that's a valid means of creating art - it has more to do with whether they have any modeling skills and the expectations of the critic. It all boild down to an apples and oranges 'judgement criteria'.

is to take what is in the imagination and make it have substance...to allow one to generate a picture that would otherwise remain hidden in ones mind...allows one to share what they think might be something worth looking at...to share beauty or ugliness...happiness or sadness...to capture a moment in time and present it as you see it...no matter what the format...photography...paint on canvas...digital...pencil to paper...chalk or charcoal...it is to present what is in your own imagination...the program or whatever method used allows one to speak...to have a voice...with your own voice...your own mind...your own thoughts and dreams...and that is not something anyone can take away...no matter their comments positive or negative...it is still yours...because it came from your mind and your soul...it is irrelevant as to how that picture or statue or photo came to be...fact is it is there to be enjoyed or hated whatever the case may be...IMVHO quietly creeps back to her lurking position JP

ok sorry but I got to ask this... I can not model in 3d worth poop{probably due to not puting the time to learn it ..it IS a massive undertaking} BUT does that mean I am less of an artist? also I sculpt wood, stone, etc ...does that make me MORE of an artist because I get splinters and have to wear safety goggles? I can carve a lump of rose quartz into a rose bud....but cant make a blessed thing with a "mesh" so who would be the real sculpter? the answer BOTH. it is just...IT IS A TOOL. some are wonderful at it..some arent... some can model amazing just jaw droping things..... some can paint amazing things... some can light it so that they can make the most poopy texture look like life itself... the thing is ....we are all artist. we all have our talents. why then do some feel the need to go "nu huh WE are better then youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu" {please note caps are not yelling they are emphasis.}

"yes. It just sailed over your head is all. The end result should be what's important. Nobody in their right mind thinks one person created Final Fantasy or Shrek, or even a simple 3d video game. In the end, composition of the piece should be most important, not whether you modelled it all yourself. Its like saying a painter isn't a real artist because he didn't grind his pigments." No it's not like any of the above. To use your analogy the poser software is like the the paintbrush and the pigments. No one is suggesting you make these. But to continue your analogy using someone elses textures and poses etc is like buying the paint and paintbrushes and then paying someone to put the paint on the canvas for you. Or in the piano analogy again the Piano is like the Poser software but then you get someone to write all the musical passages for you and then you assemble them into a song. Poser is a tool like the Piano or the paint brush and paint. The artist uses these tools to create their own origional work. The work is not origional if you use other persons creative endevours. Not the tools the creative use of the tools.

What I got out of the exchange in the 3Ds forum was that all of the POSER stuff was there was a sameness. As a long time (not so really vocal) member of the community, this stuck a chord with me. I have seen the dead offspring of the dead horse beaten. This thread and that one message just seemed to resonate, that maybe a good chunk of the Poser stuff had a common thread in its content as Caly (Msg.#19 this thread). Perhaps a good majority of us have forest for trees syndrome? I wholeheartily agree that we should view each image on its on merits. I just thought that thread put a different spin on the topic. Thanks folks for your time and opinions.

when someone takes up modelling they tend to look at the underlying mesh in a scene. the more i learn about topology, and edge loops and stuff, the more that all the vicki's in the hot 20...lately all i've had time to browse...look exactly the same. afterall they are all the same underlying mesh and that clearly shows, no matter what texture they are painted into. that's just me. that's how i see things. yet, i thoroughly enjoy some of the real masters of postwork...those have the vicki mesh camoflaged enough to actually look like a painting. there is a huge thrill to making your own model. and, maybe some of you would think differently if you tried it yourselves and actually managed to succeed. folks seem to be having good luck modelling with the free wings. if you try and don't succeed, try with another modeller. honest, making something that is all yours, from scratch is the BEST...then envisioning textures, and, a locale for it. makes me feel like a goddess, it does. and, and, and...omg...i could never win a Poser forum challenge to save my life...shoot i have scarcely ever made the hot 20 in the years i've been here. well, winning challenges in the rhino and lightwave forums have been the high spots of my time here, at renderosity. i even have a coffee mug :*) so, please, don't denounce modelling as something you "can't" learn, or don't care to learn before giving it a chance...i don't even play with my poser anymore...haven't even installed any vicki's since my crash back in august.

I still don't agree with you pierrecolat. Have you never carefully looked around? Does every book, print, title use a unique font developed by the creator of the work? Almost none. Do you think that all musicians write and play their own music? You've got to be kidding (23 years guitar playing experience here). CLICHE_ALERT: Photographers use nothing original. The camera, lens, and film/storage are built, the lighting is usually provided (esp. natural), the scene already exists or IS ASSEMBLED FROM EXISTING ITEMS!!! Yet, photography is still art. The thing oft missed here is that this is not clay, stone, paint, or whatever. This is DIGITAL medium. With the advent of digital media came something completely new: reuseability of exact copies. No longer would one have to create each and every 3D sculpture, cast, etc. individually. You can now use as many as you like - and someone else can have an exact copy to use as they like. And, sheesh, I'd hate to have to model a Ford Mustang from scratch just because I needed it to zoom across my animation for 5 seconds - esp. since there are hundreds of them available for purchase and use. No, you still don't get it. BTW, not all 3D CG work is just for "aaaaaaaaaart". Most of it is for "buuuuuuuuusiness", where time is critical, expenses low, and impact must be high. If I had to be your type of creative, I'd need to change occupations.

oh, and I forgot to mention.. the art director, who never paints anything, just tells you what to do. He's one of the guys that makes the big bucks at the magazines. Have you wondered why?

I never denounced modeling. I think it is awesome and creative and I thrill to what people with imagination can come up with. But, please, not all of us have that as an interest. It should bother no one that someone prefers to look instead of participate. I look at sculptures with the same admiration. Movies. Stars in the heavens. Blades of grass in the ground. I can make none of them, and still I appreciate what did create them. We all have our strenghts. I make a very good audience. And, if that makes me happy and I hurt no one by praising what someone else can do, then it really should be no one's concern. Should it?

exactly kuroyume... only a hobbyist with no deadline can do what Pierre does. People have been buying content for Maya and similar highend apps, long before Poser figures were worthwhile for anything more than a puppet to paint over in a graphics app. Poppi ... well, yes, that's why I use more than just Vicky in my collection of human figures. g Its easier to make figures look different when they actually are.

art isnt just for fun you know I make a living off of mine. so the buuuuuuuuusssssssssssiness is unnnnnnnnnderstood very much so. many of us here either through the mp or through self employment or what ever make a living from aaaaaaaart. do you think I sit and carve roses for poop and giggles? no they are orders and I do not mass produce. not because I dont like copies..but because generally I only take on a job that is oriented for a specific use or person. I am horrid at making copies even of my own stuff free handed as it were. also it is far easier for me as a person to sculpt in a rt medium as I can actually feel my work with my fingers. I generally close my eyes and get the feel of the form not depend on my eyes so much.{does that make sense to anyone? I know it sounds like fruite loops but really that is how it is.} I want to learn modeling in techno world so to speak..just the time ....I just do not have it right now. and BTW what is "my type of creative"? I do work for business. I do work for art. exactly what is so different? oh other then the medium used? yes it saves me time to purchase paint in a tube rather then mix my own pigments. yes it saves me time to buy a chunk of quartz or what ever stone as opposed to chisleing it out myself. so ...exactly other then names, and tools used is the difference?

bijouchat, yup the guy that tells you what is wrong with your pic..tells you what stroke to use..but couldnt do the stroke to save his life...he is the one in the corner office making the 6 digit income....

"It's the equivalent of saying "Ashkenazy? He's not a real musician! Jeez, he doesn't even make his own pianos!!! Hell, he didn't even write the music himself!"

Not really. The equivalent is looking at the remix artists out there and saying "wow, they do good work... but can they create their own music or do they always sample from others?"

I am a total practical person. I use whatever tool I can that will get me to my goal. My clients appreciate this and it is a good thing on my own projects as well. Using a tool means understanding what it IS and what it is not.

The thing is that a lot of Poser work looks GREAT and it's awesome... but it is only so within an extremely narrow range of conditions. As soon as a poser figure moves, for instance, it almost always shows the lack of real animation options in the Poser rig itself (the joints and so on). Most of the amazingly photo-real textures only really look that good under fairly specific lighting set ups and so on.

The higher end folks I interface with all look at the great photo real Poser renders and go "that looks great, but can it move? Does the muscles flex? How about the clothing? How about hair? What is the rig like?".

The reality is that the top level guys are not threatened or jealous because it isn't all that threatening. A standing still Poser model under perfect lighting can look photo real. This is not news, and it isn't unique to poser. Hell, some of them could put one of Cath's textures on a model they had built themselves in a day or two and have it look that good.

From the other side I see some of the snobbery as being a reaction to this idea - the idea that if you have Poser and $200 of stuff from Daz and a texture maker you have somehow duplicated the flexibility and potential of something like Max or Lightwave.  It shows a fairly deep lack of understanding when folks say "well, they are just jealous that we do it better than they do!".

Some of them are just jealous. Some of them are serious jerks who just hate anything that isn't their favorite rendering product. But some of them are not jealous or threatened... they acknowledge what the Poser community does well.. but they know very well what the Poser community hasn't and can't do (yet?).

That's true inside and out of the Poser community (look at all the Poser people who slam anything that is attractive or any "perfect" female as being too "easy"). Hell, INSIDE Poser's little world you have people who attack others who just "buy and render". People who make custom morphs attack those who don't sometimes. When this is happening WITHIN us, when we will attack our own members who don't do anything buy "buy and render" then why are we shocked when the outside does it? It is only a matter of degree.

Again, I am not defending the ignorance or prejudice of many of the losers who attack us - but there is no reason to delude ourselves either. They may be ignorant and elitist, we don't need to add our own prejudice to the problem :)

When I see a great assembled Poser scene I think to myself "wow! good work!" and I have some idea of how hard that would be to duplicate. When I see an awesome render by some of the best modeler/render artists I am totally floored ... and it is more work. It means a larger degree of skill in a larger number of areas... and I am more impressed.

That's just life.

i guess when i think something is alot of fun, i like to tell others about it. darkelegance, i enjoy sculpting, and painting in oils (although, my asthma and owning a bird have put a stint on that)i am SURE you would love modelling once you got the hang of it. in fact, i think anyone who enjoys knitting or crocheting would most likely love modelling, as well. b.t.w. we can always use more rose models.

na, its just because we pay 150 dollars for an entire application vs. a couple grand, and can produce good results with it. (that is entirely dependent on the artist) Whereas for Max and Maya content, you can blow 150 dollars plus on one model. Poser has its problems, significant ones even... but these threads never deal with Poser's real underlying problems. Its just a bunch of hobbyists that spent too much money for highend software complaining about a bunch more hobbyists that spent a lot less money for their low-end software, and expressing sour grapes that there might be more of them making pictures that impact on their abilities to get noticed in the gallery here. I use Carrara, Zbrush, Amapi and Poser, along with Painter and Photoshop to produce the digital pictures I do. For gemstone modelling I use Gemcad however. I also use a Minolta DiMage 7Hi camera. My SO is into photography, he can't paint or model a stick figure but his work has been published. That's not including my traditional media work, which is mostly done in watercolour, gouache, acrylic, pencil/graphite, ink or pastel. Much of the look of my 3d pictures have far more to do with my custom shaders combined with Carrara's rendering engine than anything else. I do a lot of work with lighting and composition that in the end is far more similar to the work of a photographer than anything else. On a side note, I also use Flash and Freehand to do vector graphics. But I guess none of that is art... I didn't model a huuuumaaaaan... wow, even though I've drawn them for years!

I just find it amazingly funny that a community such as the 3D community would really need to segregate itself but what program you can afford or have the time to learn. Sure if I had all day to sit around and about $3000 I would love to have a high end program, but I don't so well...I don't. I think programs such as Bryce and Poser are excellent tools that are totally unappreciated by the "more serious modellers". You can spend a lot of time in Poser and make unique looking characters, and I have seen some very beautiful pieces come out of Bryce. Just the two cents of a newbie

oh poppi I know what you mean about oils..they tried to convince me acrylics would give the same "feel" and it doesnt.~sighs~ nothing moves quite like oils. I have many ideas bouncing in my head for models just...I cant get it going...or perhaps 3d modeling is not something I can master. I get frustrated with trying to get what is in my head to the screen..what would be so easy for me rt..is just near impossible on here. but I dont go and say a modeler is not art..OMG it is one heck of an art!!! I stare like a kid making the comment "when I grow up...." ~sighs~ we all have a love in 3d..in digital..and I just dont get it why poser artists cant be accepted. post work....lighting....posing....even the idea....take work. my god even the naked vickies in temples are all different. yes there are themes that are very prevalent. no doubt about that. but not all of us do the same scene with a hand moved one way and the head moved this way and POOF a scene. but I do think we have all went through that at sometime or another. you can give the same texture and props to twently people and get twenty different pictures. ~sighs~ I need coffeee. lots of coffee. modelers have their own talent. no where am I saying it is easy. same with the texture artists. same with the ones that spend hours geting the hands in such wonderful poses in packages. some poses are better then others. just dont slam poser artists as being bad or with out talent or cookie cutter.

yeah, acrylics also dry way too fast for me to have any feel for them. there is a tutorial called "like clay" that is great for getting a feel of how to have some fun with your model, and actually sculpt it like clay on your monitor. i will try and look up the link for it and pass it on over here in the morning.

hmmm..built my own computer...check..
make my own models...check
write my own software..er, no check there..;)
wonder if I should start putting on airs?..'tis to laugh..
but if a graphic artists' printer breaks down at work, who do they call?..check..;)
I wouldn't worry, if you can please yourself, the rest of the world's taken care of..no harsher critic than the one in the mirror..;)

OHH poppi that would be great! Thank you!!~hugs~

I do what I like.

If the cgtalk folks want to nail us lesser 3D Poser types for what we do or don't do, so be it.

Yes, I am a 3D hobbyist. I don't have any high-end apps, although I could buy them, if I so desired.

I've never made a dime off of 3D graphics -- and this fact provides one with a certain level of freedom. I don't have anyone to please.....except myself.

Frequently, when something becomes a job, it ceases to be a hobby.

I prefer Poser as a hobby. I prefer the air clear.

And if I like what I've done: the opinion of someone else matters very little.